That was a hockey worthy shoulder check to flatten Howell. Not being a long time soccer guy, I'm wasn't sure if that was legal or if it should have been a foul. Even the biased announcers agreed on the 2 fouls in the box. WF was persistently fouling from behind and only had the 1 yellow for "persistent infringement". Is that the right term? 16 to 8 fouls by WF. The good news as far as NCAAT seeding is that lots of top 6 (talent wise) caliber teams like UCLA and USC have some bad losses and lesser SOS than us. Point being, we (IMO) are looking at a 2 seed barring a collapse against Duke and the first round ACCT game. Otherwise, we should definitely be no lower than a 2 seed. If we were to get on a roll and win the ACCT, then 1 seed. Right now, I'd say UVA, Stanford and UNC just about have 1 seeds locked up. Who is 4? FSU, USC, Arkansas, Louisville, BYU? Who am I forgetting?
For me, its hard to place much stock in a reg season title where the schedule is unbalanced. FSU had to play UVA and UNC. UNC and UVA do not play. If you have a conference tourney, then there should be no reg season title for unbalanced schedules...Just my opinion
Asymmetric scheduling sucks. Of course, I long for the days when the ACC was just 8 teams, and in hoops, at least, you got a home and home series with each team. UVa missing out on UNC, two years running, is the pits.
The ref was slow to make calls when he did (for either side) and he definitely missed a lot of calls. To me there were more missed calls for Wake than for FSU. Compared to Thursday, FSU looked tired and was using their "physicality" to disrupt WFU. The fouls on FSU in the box were back to back, so I really couldn't tell if he missed the first foul or was just slow to blow his whistle like he was all day. They were definitely fouls though. But we can agree that he was not a good official at all - the audacity of showing up 30 minutes late to a TV game and then stinking up the job to the point both teams have reason to be pissed at you Regardless, I think FSU is walking away from this weekend realizing they need to play way better to make a deep run in the postseason. Better to realize that now while there's still at least a little bit of time to tinker with things. Sure UNC had a chip on their shoulder and Wake was playing to keep their season alive. But UNC outlasted them and Wake looked more dangerous on offense than the Noles and was even able to hold FSU to its lowest shot total for the season (according to the FSU recap?). I was also surprised at how little FSU relied on subs.
Because of last year, the tendency is to assume that FSU can improve when the season goes up a gear. Maybe this is what they are? This team has holes they have not filled all year.
Yes! We Nole fans are hopeful the holes can be patched, but are not unrealistic in expecting it to magically happen. We lost Kuikka from last year, and her replacement is a freshman who is 60%(my subjective guess) of what Kuikka was. We also lost key starter Tillman a starting 7. Dallas Dorosy, super sub 9. Additionally we lost Megan Connolly a 7 mostly. Bergau a sub as an 11. Patten a swiss army knife. Additionally Villalobos an 11 left the team midseason personal reasons, still undisclosed. Her loss is distressing b/c she has better attacking skills than what we've put out there. Add to that Kristina Lynch an 11 not being close to full speed, Clara Robbins a 7 or 11 not being up to full speed and Emily Madril missing 2nd straight year due to 2nd ACL. We're missing a lot from last year's team. It shows! Could we put it together? Yes. Is it likely given all that we've been trying to replace? No! Time will tell! As 007 pointed out pre season, Jenna N. is playing out of place as a 7. She's mostly a 10 I believe, as is Deyna and Yujie. Oh well! May the best team win, whomever it is. My money is on one of UVA, UNC and or Stanford.
I love your passion Tom81. I am also grateful that you give me the courtesy of saying that i said a lot of this BEFORE the season started. I like watching good players. I try and be as objective as I can. FSU have some of the best players in the College game, but lack balance. If there was a transfer mkt where Colleges could bid for other teams players FSU would bid max for a speedy winger and a competent #9 with some speed. If they had that , I would see them as right there with the favorites. This year i see them a step below because they have too many similar players. For me, Stanford probably have the most individual talent. UVA have the most coherent TEAM and UNC have the most effective system.
007, did you see the FSU WF game? If so, did you see the play where the WF player?? was making a run for the goal from 40 or so yards away? J Howell was on her left and trying to get ahead to disrupt or dispossess. The WF girl (who had the ball) gave her a shoulder check worthy of hockey that sent J Howell flying onto her butt. A pass or so later WF scores. My question (sincerely don't know) is "Was that a foul?" I'm a huge fan, but try like the dickens to be fair and objective.
Duke’s record is 8-1-7. I seem to remember other seasons when that had extraordinary numbers of draws. How do they draw so often? An extraordinary defense and a bunch of 0-0 ties would be the most logical explanation , but only 3 of the ties were 0-0 and their GAA is not that great. A contentness to hold ties in the last third or so of games. I don.t know. What’s the reason?
The bigger issue with the draws is they now have an extra 140 minutes on their legs. That doesn’t seem like a lot but in the compacted season it is a heavy toll
As a close observer of this season (as obviously indicated by my handle), agree wholeheartedly with the comment about the heavy toll given the number of minutes and the significant injuries the Duke squad has had to deal with this year. But for others to suggest that there’s a fear of failing that exceeds their willingness to win is pretty misguided. This team has held against some significant onslaughts this year by — at times — teams with superior talent or teams that were at the time playing better than the Blue Devils. If we’re going to ascribe any sentiment or inclination to these young women regarding willingness, it should be more around their unwillingness to give up or take a loss. Of course, we’ll see how that plays out against FSU on Thursday and a likely travel date for the first round of the ACC tournament.
The Duke comments reflect the very defensive game plans vs teams they are used to going toe to toe with. Duke seem to have lost a lot of offensive difference makers over the last 2 years and they dont seem to have replacements yet. I just re-read my comment and it reads badly.That was not my intent. Im not used to seeing Duke teams so defensive, not creating consistent offense and heavily reliant on the counter.
well one thing to keep in mind about duke. they still haven't been beat by an ACC team. They will be a tough out in the tournament because of that defense. if they can keep it at a dead lock then its all about PK's.
The defense is giving up a ton of shots. Law of averages suggest that at some point more are going to go in.
I just watched this play and think it was a wonderful no call. It's exactly the type of shouldering that one sees //all the time// in soccer--except that usually it's the defender doing it to the player with the ball. In this case it was the opposite. The WF player did not throw herself violently into the opponent, as we occasionally see; she just gave her a shoulder. I think when one is running at top speed (or close to it), receiving contact like that is apt to make one lose balance and fall down more easily than would happen if both were just fighting for the ball in midfield, say, and not really running fast. The WF player made a good, physical play. Of course, the officiating is so variable in soccer that some refs would have blown their whistle there. I've seen more than a few teams lose games late because a defender gives an opponent with the ball a standard shoulder in the box; the offensive player falls down, the refs calls a penalty-kick foul and the game is lost. Drives me crazy. Judgment on plays like that separates the good refs from the bad ones, in my opinion.
I would have no problem with that call, if as you say, the same ref doesn't call it on the defender if the defender were the one giving the same shoulder. We won, so it doesn't matter, but I was just curious as to if it was a normal non call. What I hear you saying is it is according to the ref. I suspect, that if the defender made that shoulder it Would have been called.
This! It reminded me of the college cup semifinal against Stanford a number of years ago when Chiomu Obogagu (a one time FSU commit) pushed over our defender at midfield and raced half the field to score. Sort of like targeting in football. If a defender lowers his head he will most assuredly be called on it. However if an offensive player lowers their head to cause the head to head contact, it will also be called on the defender.
In the end it is always the decision of the ref but I think it was a clear foul. The player that got knocked down is one of the more physical players on the field, she doesn't go down without some significant force. I saw it differently. I thought she did launch herself at the other player. I thought it was very similar to a hockey check, she played the defender rather than the ball, cleared her out and then went for the ball rather than going for the ball and made contact in the course of doing so. The key for me was she wasn't trying to play the ball in this instance. It wasn't a play on the ball when the shoulder charge occurred. It was a "clear the defender then get the ball" challenge. Of course we see it all the time with players like Diego Costa and the like. Premier league refs are less likely to call it a foul, La Liga refs generally call it a foul all day. College is so mixed I can't even say what the norm is. Some refs let players dangerously tackle others from behind without a warning or foul called. Others call simple hand checks and less. With all that said, I understand why some would think it was clean as there was no arm extension or anything like that. Fifa definitely needs to provide clarity in the rules in these scenarios as the foul/no foul interpretations vary widely. These debates go on at all levels, Ex. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/when-is-shoulder-to-shoulder-a-foul.1943691/
We see clearing with the shoulder all the time in soccer--it's a big part of the game. In the end every official has his or her own standard when it comes to physical play like this. I thought it was a good, physical soccer play but no foul. For what it's worth, Cat Whitehill, who has some credibility as a player and longtime analyst, said, "no foul.' Would that have been called a foul if a defender had shouldered an offensive player off the ball? Possibly--even likely. I think an offensive player should get the benefit of the doubt. Some say he was a bad ref: might have been--I only looked at this play!
What ping said rang true to me (I'm no expert). "I thought it was very similar to a hockey check, she played the defender rather than the ball, cleared her out and then went for the ball rather than going for the ball and made contact in the course of doing so" It sounds like even at the higher levels of soccer, refs call them differently. As an admitted newbie to the Nuance of soccer rules, the tackling from behind, without getting the ball (or even close) is what pisses me off the most. It should be an automatic yellow (red in some situations). This happens to FSU all the time and is only sometimes called a yellow. We seem to face the "persistent infraction" scenario to throw us off our possession game. WF only had one yellow. I suspect Stanford and UVA face the same dilemma.
I've noticed that a lot as well. So dangerous. I will note that most leagues around the world have made significant progress on these types of tackles and caution or ejections are now the norm, even the leagues that most consider to be "more physical." Unforunately NCAA D1 women's soccer has some refs that still have the "old school" mindset. Fifa rules dictate "A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner CONSIDERED BY THE REFEREE to be careless, reckless, or using excessive force." "Considered by the referee" is the key. Judgement call and as you can see from the various posts you get various opinions.
We heard the same thing said about two footed tackles, going studs up, tackles from behind, etc. in the past.... "it's a big part of the game" "we see it all the time in soccer" I'm not a fan of defenders being allowed to shoulder charge an attacker violently off the ball and not playing the ball either. Shielding is one thing, clearing someone out is another. I'm not opposed to physical contact, I don't care that a player goes down, I look at intent. Does all that happen while I am going for the ball or am I knocking the player down and then going for the ball? There is a difference. Announcers are biased like you and me. Cat Whitehill (a defender) definitely looks at the game from a defender's perspective. Pretty sure she isn't a FSU fan either(former UNC player.) No shock that she liked the call. We all know that defenders rarely think fouls are fouls. How many times have we all heard "I got the ball" or "that isn't a foul"? It is like listening to Rio Ferdinand and Thierry Henry talk about perspectives on fouls. Very different views from world class players. In many ways it is the beauty of the game. So many different perspectives. In the end, I focus on player safety on this play. At the least the challenge was careless, I think it was reckless. The ref thought is was fair so that is what it was. The debate will go on forever.