Nations League A, Camp 1, Cuba/Canada, Oct. 11/15

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by thedukeofsoccer, Jul 23, 2019.

  1. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Germany who won 2014 leans heavily domestic. France who won 2018 leans expeditionary. There is no one road.

    I will note that France has Clairefontaine, supplementing a weaker league with centralized training for the elite prospects.

    Delegating development to clubs who have shown little knack for it strikes me as the victory of abstracted idealism, or the snobbery xerox. The snobs are so dialed in their xerox they can't seem to see we currently with limited exceptions don't execute the role well that they want systematically delegated in imitation of Europe.

    FIFA rules forbid us exporting our players for training. We now favor the allowed domestic training, primarily by entities that haven't proven they can do the job, but are instead favored because in circular logic they are optimistically understood as a potential best chance at getting to the pros. But not because they actually produce them. And if we do sign them DP and international slot rules complicate their ever seeing playing time.
     
  2. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #877 juvechelsea, Oct 14, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
    you don't decide rosters based on how do you compare with people who no longer play. is cannon a dolo? probably not yet, though his critics neglect he was a YNT pipeline player. but is dolo coming out of retirement at his peak to play for us? no. it's interesting as "historical legacy" but useless as "we have a lineup tuesday."

    nor is critiquing one current player on this basis, but not an incumbent who would far no better at present, any help. so what if player A is no dolo. the question is who out of A B C D should i start at that spot. and comparing A unfavorably to the past but not the rest tells me nothing and perhaps hides the truth.

    the one area where the critique might have some interesting application would be the notion of continuing to experiment. people resist my calls to try new players. but if your horse sense is x y and z, while being used now, aren't the level we used to have, that vibe should prod you to keep looking. we instead seem fairly comfortable x y and z are as good as we can manage and something else would be a risk. which is an odd conclusion to reach without winning GC, getting routine good results, or your eyeballs saying, wow, this guy will be in the pantheon.

    few players truly stand out. a lot are just ok or inconsistent. some suck. but we run personnel like we just won gold cup and made the world cup quarters with this bunch. there should be more flux in the roster because the results just aren't that good. nor, if we were to give your heuristic meaningful value, does this feel like some historical peak of our best players for a decade.
     
  3. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS is not at the level of The Championship and none of the objective services make that case.

    I doubt any knowledgeable B2 fan believes that B2 is at the Level of The Championship. Much like LAFC and ATLU have the resources to buy better players, The Championship also have tremendous resources and can buy much better players.

    Example, a few years D Williams was a young starting CM at Hoffenheim in the BuLi. He got an offer 3X+ what Hoffenheim could offer to move to Reading in The Championship!
     
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  4. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    no, sorry, you are literally full of sh*t at this point.

    sorry, i used to watch fulham in person when they were in what is now league 1. it was kickball -- refined to the nth degree, but kickball -- played at a level below MLS.

    common sense should tell you that we rate out at championship level. where do we transfer over there?? mostly championship with a couple EPL. that's your level.
     
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  5. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    the difference between the championship or B.2 vs MLS is they can afford 30 man first teams plus reserve teams plus plus plus. i don't think the teams are better. they are better resourced. this is why so many players will move laterally. the level over there is not necessarily better, as shown by many players from there who couldn't play here. what is better is the money they can use on the teams. deeper rosters, better paychecks for the same quality.
     
  6. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #881 juvechelsea, Oct 14, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
    Charlie Kelman was FCD academy, is 17, and until he hurt his knee was playing and occasionally scoring in League 1. It's roughly USL would be my guess.

    When Gooch comes over he often shanks crosses in the stands for us. Yeah, USL. He is an interesting player who needs to improve who IMO got where he is based on European passports.

    I watched basically every level there, including what are now L1 and L2, and I thought that L1 was basically USL or good NCAA D1. I thought I was better than quite a few people getting PT in league ball there. And this was a few decades ago, not the level we're at now.

    The reality is that the work permit rules there will send all but EU/UK passports to the top divisions, if at all. We would fill their lower divisions if the rules let us. But the level of player who can achieve a work permit -- as opposed to play there based off a EU passport and live the dream from the bottom up a la demerit -- isn't going to bother with anything below championship. The money isn't good enough (in lower rungs it's more like USL money) for you to play or them to pay for you. They can't afford the transfer fees. This is why we go loan in Scotland and they never sign there (unless directly). We fit the standard -- and it's BS to act like it's above us -- but we are now valued at above what they can afford.

    That should hint at something in terms of how we compare at soccer.
     
  7. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    the league or team based arguments also often hide more than they show because the real question here is not how would LAFC handle liverpool or reading.

    it's how to assess individual NT prospects who would by nature usually be above average for their set. team stuff is how do 20 players compare. this is how does an individual stack up. an individual can hack levels above a team or league. and the players being looked at should generally do so.

    once tyler adams goes from here to playing near top of B.1, the snob arguments lose meaning as individual assessment tools. it doesn't matter if the teams wouldn't compare. because we're supposed to be assessing adams -- individuals -- and at least some can slide right over. in which case there is no predictive value. "watch and see."

    it might be worth giving some value to high levels of success in elite leagues. but we don't have that. so you are left comparing 5 goals in one league to 20 in the other. trying to go back to teams only hides things because you are comparing individuals.

    this is why, to me, i favor how do they look with the NT, what are their stats there. controlled environment, common level. put up or shut up. based on that, right now, league level means squat. at some positions, the talent is in one region. in some others, MLS. no use in terms of predicting which one's stats mean more than the next.
     
  8. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Have we seen Lovitz play against anyone? CONCACAF middling B teams and Cuba. If we just want an older solid player, there are guys. Again, in MLS there are players playing better.

    Dest looked worse than Robinson ever did. Even when beaten by Costa, the guy never got around AR. Dest had two players just walk by him for a g goal and a big chance.

    Will Lovitz start vs Canada? GB has never played him big minutes against anyone decent. If Ream plays LB, why are we wasting so much time on Lovitz?
     
  9. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    Dest brought a bag of tools to the job that warrants his inclusion. He is an excellent attacking and combining player on either wing. Berhalter's system would make a star out of someone like Dest who can get across half field, put pressure on defenders, overwhelm them, and either combine or hit rockets on goal. Dest will be on the field if he chooses the USMNT because he helps to create a greater strength out of the strength of the system. Berhalter will make room for him and play other guys who complement him.

    He is not a smart or experienced defender yet, however. Holland does not prepare players well in general for that, much less guys who are just breaking into the squad. He may never be a great defender, honestly. But he seems like a bright kid who wants to work to get better and add to his game. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't.

    Honeslty, I don't know Lovitz that well as a player. I know that he is smart, physical, and positionally sound. Berhalter appears to trust him in those ways.
     
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  10. kickin365

    kickin365 Member+

    Mar 4, 2002
    Lovitz was greggs last sub in the gold cup final when down a goal. Short appearance but questionable choice that shows he values him and isn’t afraid to use him.
     
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  11. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    As most were, I was confused by that. When Gregg made that sub, did he shift the formation or adjust the tactical approach? I did not discern that during the game.
     
  12. kickin365

    kickin365 Member+

    Mar 4, 2002
    He didn’t change formation but felt Lovitz could get up the field better than Ream. While true Most people would have opted for Boyd’s attacking skill set I think.
     
  13. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Not a surprise, but Brenden Aaronson won't dress against Canada. If he was going to get a cap, it was going to be against Cuba.
     
  14. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Historically we have approached soccer in the sensible way which is to seek out players who what i will scientifically refer to as "play well." Not just exist or not completely embarrass themselves. I am at a loss for how Lovitz meets that in much of any way. Cuba was getting chances up his side and not Cannon's. Other teams have picked on him as well. His one positive contribution was to kick a cross that got stopped by the first defender in front of it. His luck: they did it with a hand. PK.

    11 appearances, 0 goals, 0 assists. There is no tangible upside of him "getting forward." Despite being a regular pushbutton GC sub, he didn't change the games he entered. There is no comeback we can point to, to justify a sub role, or to say, there is something small that might scale to 90 minutes.

    In terms of actual defense, Lichaj has some history and a low GAA. If you want to go the other way, A. Robinson has tangible assists, and Dest can shoot. But both have trade offs defensively.

    Sorry, normal circumstances anonymous or bad would = seeya. And he offers no specific upside someone else doesn't offer better.

    We get short windows to look at new options. I don't see the point in beating our heads against the wall with crap over and over. Try someone else or recycle old options across field as left sided players.

    The only way to justify this crap is to water down what it means to make our team. Once you water down enough individual spots don't be surprised if the overall team SUCKS.

    Really not complicated. He hasn't looked any good. Reward people who look actually good in more phases of the game.
     
  15. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #890 juvechelsea, Oct 14, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
    It is laughable that we discuss some of these Lovitz/Baird/Trapp choices seriously. The first hurdle should be doing something, anything, positive. At least Zardes scores goals. That at least gets into a more positive discussion of who is a more positive player, or would scale up to one if given a chance. But making excuses for trash is basically a recipe for a bad team. Cutting trash should be the EASY PART OF THE JOB.

    The primary way in which GB is a lousy coach is 10 months in and we are still calling up players with no demonstrated upside. It should take 1-2 games to see a player is anonymous or bad. The "cuts" have been few. Disappointing players are challenged at a glacial pace. This is basic coaching 101. Usually the debates are more about who is most positive and not still trying to belabor players who haven't shown well.

    What this should be is more like Jozy v Sargent v Zardes. Goals are scored or created, who does it more?? Who has more of that upside. Instead I'm listening to apologia for Yueill vs Bradley vs Trapp like that argument isn't itself a danger cul de sac where the residents trap cars, extract drivers at gunpoint, and strip the vehicle for cash. Ditto LB. If you are debating among trash you are missing the point. You should be asking for new options.
     
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  16. um_chili

    um_chili Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    Losanjealous
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess this is the Canada pre-game thread? So, are we gonna win? I honestly know little about the Canada squad save for that they played pretty well but quite inconsistently in the Gold Cup. Seems they have some exciting young players, and that they historically tend to play us tough (Gold Cup semis '02, '07 for example), likely because winning means more to them than to us. Plus not too impressed with the MNT of late, which I think is pretty much the consensus.

    So I'm a little edgy about this game, and would be satisfied but not especially happy to see us draw. But I'd love to hear someone with better knowledge than me tell me I'm underestimating our team.
     
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  17. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    I think that this will honestly be a test for our young Yanks. Canada will be stubborn if nothing else, and they also have some up and comers within their squad. If there is a time for Canada to beat the US, it's tomorrow. This game means a lot more to the Canadian team than it does to the US, and the US is lacking in experienced veteran leadership to make the most of this game.

    If the US goes down a goal or a couple of goals, I could see the players get frustrated rather than to solve problems.
     
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  18. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    The vague feeling I get is that Herdman is relying on experience more than upstart youth. I don't see Liam Fraser in his squad which is criticized most for its deficiency in the back (defensively). I'd be worried about this

    ---------------cavallini-----david
    -----------------------arfield
    -----williams--piette---kay----laryea
    ---------------x---------x-------x
    ------------------gk: borjan

    fortunately, those x's represent no-names at cb because otherwise we'd be in trouble.

    p.s. whoops, I see they added Fraser a week ago because Will Johnson pulled out for family reasons.
    https://www.tsn.ca/toronto-fc-midfi...laces-will-johnson-on-canada-roster-1.1377006
    He'll add some youthful energy and work in the back line if he is played there. He was traditionally at dmid but played some cb for Reds when they were hit with injury crisis. He can dig the ball out and get it forward and cover some ground for them.
     
  19. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    Which further underscores his very questionable selection to this camp's roster in the first place.
     
  20. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Of all of those, the only one I'd call is Green. He shows some smarts when playing behind the striker, and we lack that.

    CCV is quite bad. That entire Stoke team is not Championship quality, they are League One quality and that's where they'll be next season, unless they improve dramatically.

    From decades watching soccer, I just don't see it with Robinson. The guy lacks everything you need in a defender, even if a fullback.

    Holmes may improve, but right now he's not a big loss.
     
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  21. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    Gregg has described bringing guys like Aaronson and Pomykal into camp as a way to get them an inside look at the team and to reward them for their professional accomplishments. As we saw with Dest, Gregg will play that player if he things that they are ready to contribute. Gregg understood the value of regular minutes at Ajax and put Dest right in the mix, where he must have shown some competence in camp. We don't know what Aaronson looked like in camp but I think its fair to say that he didn't leave the impression that Dest did.
     
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  22. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    I agree 100% on Green. He's the one guy I'm scratching my head over as to why he hasn't become a more consistent part of the team.
     
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  23. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Gregg seems to imply that Aaronson did fine. I have no problem whatsoever if Gregg wants to use the last 1 or 2 roster slots with these camps on the kids. It was Pomykal last time. Aaronson this time. Maybe it'll be Mendez next time. Ledesma the following time. Of all the things to bitch about, this one is really low on the list.
     
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  24. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    or Aaronsen had stiffer competition at his position. Dest benefited from not having anybody close to his skills on the ball in possession at the fb role. He raises the bar. otoh, Aaronsen isn't going to waltz around the 18 unchallenged v. Mexico the way he mite v. Cincinnati.
     
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  25. lmorin

    lmorin Member+

    Mar 29, 2000
    New Hampshire
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seems to me this is a circular argument. The "We" to which you refer seems to include you, a significant number of other posters here on BS, but not me or Berhalter. It also does not include any other USMNT coach going back at least to Arena's first stint. There are always more players who do not make the national team grade for one reason or another despite having seemingly appropriate credentials. For example, Roy Lassiter who scored 27 goals for the Tampa Bay Mutiny in 1996, a record that stood until last season. He had 88 MLS career goals in only 7 seasons, missing a bunch of games in some of those. Should he have been on the 1998 or 2002 team? Multiple coaches did not think so, although he certainly had his advocates. According to Wikipedia, he played well at the international level in 1997, but not thereafter. He did not make the international grade, playing his last game for the US in 2000. He was an alternate for the 1998 WC, finishing with 34 caps and 4 goals. Kreis and Wondolowski are two other cases in point, good for MLS but not good enough for the international game.

    The point is that yes, the best players should be picked, but I for one hesitate to accept your judgment (or anyone else's here on BS, for that matter) as to who the best players are. And, for the record, I agree with you that "most MLS players are filler or not good enough." On the other hand, that statement also recognizes that there are also some that are good enough. The coach and his staff get to make the choice, thank goodness. And with respect to the present and upcoming matches, remember that hole in the birth year contribution to the Nats? It is still there, dogging Berhalter and cannot be plugged until more of the younger players come in. Gio Reyna being one. The trick is to qualify while still plugging the old holes with younger and better players. Those changes will continue right up to 2022 roster submission time.
     

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