If you just go with two years peak then both Xavi and VvD are decent options imho. Over a five years peak Xavi becomes slightly more problematic but for VvD there are substantial arguments given the really big difference he made for Southampton (7th team of England), the high WhoScored ratings and also that all the truly woeful national team results came without him (in other words: with him between 2015 and 2017 the national team was more stable). You can say Xavi was 'world class' in 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2013. Thus four years at a high level, with the first two even higher. 🔴 Virgil Van Dijk at Camp Nou? 😏 He's been there before 💪#UCL #TBT #ThrowbackThursday pic.twitter.com/lPx6CzcTyW— UEFA Champions League (@ChampionsLeague) April 25, 2019
Oblak conceded 3 goals against Juve and was knocked out, his team only scored 2. Alisson also conceded 3 goals vs Barca but his team scored 4 goals and he wasn't knocked out. They conceded the same number but one was knocked out and the other stayed on for reasons they really had nothing to do with. But I was actually thinking of 2015-16 Oblak as his own peak, which I'd say was considerably higher than Alison's.
Well yes, I did say fair enough if he just wants to go with peak, both for Xavi and VVD. I just don't think it's a good idea to do that for a decade XI. Who makes decade XI out of 2 year peaks? Even with 5 year peak VVD wouldn't get into the XI, even if his case is stronger than Xavi. He would only have 2 years at the UCL level, with 3 of the 5 playing with Southampton, and no domestic cup to show for, while the likes of Chiellini and Ramos gets UCL and World Cup and EURO level games, and winning domestic cups year in year out. It's just not comparable.
In brief my reasons to prefer Alves (#1 vs #2 fullback): - Dani Alves won many more trophies. The only thing he doesn't have is a World Cup, but of every other trophy (Champions League, UEFA Cup, league titles, domestic cups, continental trophies with national team) he has more than Lahm. This is not a case of where one player has more league titles and the other more Champions Leagues. - The right-back is not the most influential position on the field, but with that in mind I don't think Alves was less influential. The naked data shows this and even in the least favorable version of the GI algorithm (made by germans) he is only very, very marginally behind Lahm. The difference is not 30+ points or so (i.e. Zidane, Maradona, Ronaldinho). - The allure of Lahm stems from the idea he was a more refined and balanced player. While there is some truth in this, it shouldn't be over-extended. We saw the upper limits of him playing in midfield at the World Cup and against the better teams like Real Madrid. Defensively the difference isn't so big either, Lahm could be vulnerable on the backfoot (euro 2008 final an example, including the Torres goal) and Alves in his prime has very arguably a better record defending vs Cristiano and Messi. - Dani Alves was obviously more of a goalscorer and assister. In his Sevilla seasons he had more goals and assists in the league and Champions League (his only campaign) than Lahm in his best outing. - Dani Alves has 31 ESM team of the month selections (for four different teams). Lahm has 17 selections. Both received 6/9 selections in their best season. - Dani Alves had sometimes a direct contribution in the things he won, including getting Pepe sent off in the semis. I'm not sure whether Lahm ever had a semi final or final performance like Alves had in 2007, 2017, 2019 for instance. - Dani Alves played major finals 13 years apart (2006 UEFA Cup, assist in final & 2019 Copa America, MOTM vs Argentina).
On the flip side though, the reason Liverpool paid so much money was because of how he played at Southampton, so performance wise it seems very feasible to think he'd rate considerably over Ramos and Chiellini even I think. But the problem is (stats and highlights aside) verifying that without having had season tickets at Southampton, Juventus or Real Madrid - it's easier to say Van Dijk seems better based on attributes, peak level etc. Maybe showing enough to persuade while at a lower club is harder for defensive players than attacking ones even.
1154308448747737090 is not a valid tweet id 804004306810769409 is not a valid tweet id Well, I don't really agree with you. 1) Is playing for the 6th/7th team in England, top two league in the world, a markedly worse level than playing for Santos (Neymar until 2014 - problematic first Barca season), pre-Pochettino Tottenham when England was woeful in Europe (Modric until 2013 - problematic first Madrid season) or in the 2nd division of France (Kante until 2015, playing for a relegation candidate in the 5th league of Europe the season before). 2) He wasn't playing in the fifth league of Europe, he played in a top two league and arguably the deepest and most (physically) demanding league. He showed his value against Liverpool, against Manchester City etc. He played in various high level games. 3) Previously you mentioned in the thread Thiago Silva his goal against Chelsea, which is about the only 'big' goal he has for PSG (apart from vs Barca in group stage for Milan and vs Colombia in 2014WC). Well, Van Dijk for Southampton has his 'big' goals vs Internazionale, vs later champions Leicester City, vs Tottenham - all of them winning games and/or points for Southampton. Intriguingly, in the Eredivisie 5 of his 6 goals came against top five opponents (three against Feyenoord...). 4) As mentioned, the win percentage of Southampton dropped from 41% to 20% in the 36 league games without him. This wasn't for relegation fodder, but for the 'best of the rest' team in a top league. 5) All the dismal defeats by the national team (0-4 vs France etc.) came without him. Don't think that's just coincidence. 6) Regarding "no domestic cup to show". Southampton actually reached the 2017 League Cup final, and he played the semi final (vs Liverpool). He was injured for the final vs ManUnited. 7) His WhoScored ratings are for four consecutive seasons above 7.40, for Southampton and Liverpool. That's very high for a defensive player. He immediately delivered for Liverpool (scoring goal vs Everton on debut; reminiscent of his very first professional start when he scored two goals as a right-back in a play-off game for European football). 8) Those Southampton performances made him that expensive and wanted by City and Liverpool alike (as well as Juventus, offering an equally good salary as Liverpool). For the performances in the league but certainly also abroad. Unlike Harry Maguire, his fee wasn't inflated by a favorable nationality or the homegrown player rule. The homegrown rule inflates the prices considerably. So for him there are real tangibles he outperformed his team, and made them better. He played in enough high level games to show it, the goals and stats are in his favor. IIRC Gazzetta gave him an 8.5 for his Internazionale game and goal (at any rate man of the match).
To elaborate on the goalscorer and assister point: Dani Alves in his most productive season created 25 goals in 54 games (22 in 48 in his best Sevilla season). Lahm is at 17 in 47 games. Overall Alves has eight seasons where he is directly involved in 15 or more goals, Lahm has one season with this involvement. Alves has ten season with 10 or more goal involvements, Lahm has two.
Great points. I personally like one central defender to be a cover like VVD or Pique, the other to be a more aggresive one like Ramos or co. Godin i believe to be underrated with the ball in his feet due to playing under Simeone, but i think he is capable of being better version of Matip.. i am probably not remembering plenty of names. I havent put much thoughts into it tho. Would you say Busquets is past his prime and if he is, how far of his prime he is and how long has been out of it? I believe that busquets is limited player, but within these limits, he virtually can not be better than he is. When Barca counter press, Busquets positioning and anticipation is unparraled, but pressing is a team effort and if for whatever reason press doesnt work out, Busquets ends up very high up the pitch, out of position. This is where all troubles begin. Due to his lack of pace and intensity, he is not capable of tracking back which exposes his back 4. He has never been capable of doing that, just that when he played under Guardiola, those things rarely happened and Xavi could partly fix it on the pitch. But under Martino, Enrique, Valverde, it is happening far more often which leads people to conclude he is out of his prime. I think he is very consistent performer and that he is roughly as good as he ever was. Rodri on the other hand, has that physical ability to recover although he is inferior in anticipation to prime Busi. I felt that that ability to recover is more important for this particular side. Maybe it is not. I could just as well use 2011 Barca side and replace them with superior versions of players. Instead of Villa, put Ronaldo. Instead of Pedro, idk, Sterling? VvD instead of pique. Neuer instead of Valdes, etc. But thats not fun, is it? Just to make it clear. When i say peak i mean like period of one season or so. Rodri will have by the end of the season 3 very competitive years in this decade so i when i choose him, i am sort of choosing that version of him. I am not implying he has had better career or something. I just feel it is unnecessary to wait 10 years to look back at 2019 and say, Rodri was already pretty good in last decade. The same way nobody really appriciated Busquets in 2011, but now majority would say his peak was back then. Rodri is a world class player in this moment. It took him week to get ahead of Fernandinho and Fernandinho was thought to be underrated in Peps City team.
Expected Goals against my friend, and no it is not higher or whatever, let alone considerably. Alisson's season as nearly perfect in 18-19 with a lot of collective and individual thophies;
Different leagues. Alisson was the best GK in the best league in the world. Crucial performances in the Copa América and in the Champions League. It couldn't have been any better. And different teams too, Courtois looked way better in Atletico Madrid than he is looking in the Real (just the 17º shot stopper in the Liga) and average in Chelsea too. Alisson's Roma was the same of Alisson of Liverpool, the same world class delivery in the statistics: ^^ To fans of whoscored rating, that is probably one of the highest GK ratings in a Champions League final. More: WC_LF_Torres writes: "You get the point, Alisson’s distribution is insane." Alisson is much better distributor than Oblak https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spo...statistics-helped-liverpool-identify-14926832 "I think the reason Klopp prefers him to Oblak (other than price) is that he fits Liverpool’s style of play much better. He’s a sweeper keeper that’s good with putting balls down range fast for counter attacks, and plays in a similar defensive system to ours." Oblak attempted 340 long passes but only connected on 34.1% with 49 toward the final third at 14.3%.De Gea frequently sends the ball long (435 attempts) but more often than not misses (40.5% success), same when going toward the final third (98 attempts, 20.4%)— Carson (@WC_LFC_Torres) July 16, 2018 We see here that, despite Ederson attempting more passes into the final third, Alisson distinguishes himself notably more up the pitch. He attempts more long passes (beyond 34 metres) and is considerably more successful with them. pic.twitter.com/tajkLyGXz8— Carson (@WC_LFC_Torres) July 16, 2018 Elite shot stopper and Elite distributor of the ball.
Ironic how you now start to cite WhoScored ratings despite Neuer and Oblak clearly winning there. Also ironic how you cite his only man of the match (the only for Liverpool, the only in the CL) while Oblak is at 9 man of the match performances by WhoScored (including 4 in the CL). This includes a quarter final against Real Madrid for instance, as well as other must win games in the CL. Reminder: your claim was "higher peak", not an equal peak.
Higher peak, 1-season = Alisson 18/19. That's the best season for an GK in this decade. 5-years = Neuer (2011-2016) This was my final post about this subject.
Since people like these whoscored ratings what about: Casemiro as starter, 7.47 Rating Kante as starter, 7.27 Rating Busquets as starter, 7.27 Rating
Midfielders are a different subject. What those ratings for goalkeepers show is that they are more active, have more actions in a match. In combination with other things (that is important...) like conceding a low amount of goals, undefeated runs by a team or what Bayern did with Ullreich, Stark, old Reina and Butt on goal you get a rounded picture... This is also why Buffon had a relatively low rating of 6.68 in 2016-17. Because he didn't have to do a lot compared to a Neuer, Oblak, Cech or a 40+ years old VdS. He literally had a low activity in the matches. Combined with other aspects like Juventus conceding more goals than their expected goals in 2016-17 it is possible to say: maybe the 4th place in the Ballon d'Or was too much.
I think what made Alves so ridiculous was the fact that he was Sevilla's best and most influential player, as a right back.
There is so much in a player fee that it is not necessarily because one player is better than the other. 1. The lack of supply for world-class defenders. By definition, world-class defenders are rare, and most of them are not available for sale. This pushes up the price, naturally. 2. VVD cost more because he's younger. He's at least 3-4 years younger than the likes of Pique, Ramos, and Chiellini. I reckon if Varane was available in the market at the same time as VVD, he'd cost even more than VVD. 3. Southampton was in no rush to sell, so they were able to squeeze more out of the deal. Liverpool was also desperate for a defender. This is similar to how Bale moved to Madrid.
I can share your preference for two complementary styles of defenders, although I think the world of elite football is moving towards having two complete defenders. Imagine a world with two VVDs. That would simply be the best CB pairing, better than VVD + someone else, right now. I agree that Godin is slightly underrated, and should be in contention for the decade XI for sure. I do wonder if he's shown enough to be a better tactical fit for the XI though. You've already covered that he does, in fact, have decent ball-playing ability. However, he doesn't play in a high line, which is common among the top teams employing 433 this decade. At. Madrid employs a middle-block against most teams, and even a low-block in big games. Could still work out just fine though.
I guess I tend to agree with the first paragraph here so maybe that is why I have doubts about the answer to me (not that I dispute that those factors can influence transfer fees - my point though was just that it was really a lot of money for a defender and so indicates he'd been doing pretty great at Southampton). In other words I'm not too sure he became much better at Liverpool than he was in essence at Southampton already, or that his influence as a player grew hugely. Not to say I don't think there has been any such improvement in his game necessarily - he does now have a bigger stage to be recognised though.
I think for Marcelo I see his defence frailties as so big I find it hard to put him in, however a clear stand out to replace him was not obvious. Re Alves, agree and I can see your point, but some of his best games for Barca were when he was deployed further forward as opposed to a full back but I am not arguing he has a very very strong case.
When they won the UEFA Cup no player scored more than 10 league goals so you might have a point there, and Alves created goals in the latter stages of the competition too. Some other possibilities for each season (imho) 2004-05: Sergio Ramos, Navarra, Baptista, Navas 2005-06: Palop, Adriano Correia, Kanoute (6 goals in the UEFA Cup + assists) 2006-07: Palop, Kanoute 2007-08: Palop, Kanoute, Seydou Keita That's what I think at least, roughly. As an estimate. Jesus Navas has some stellar DBScalcio ratings - he can be added too for some seasons perhaps - as a boy of the club, but in general I'm not super convinced by him. He lacked a certain end product (also against the big teams) and in the tactical and teamwork aspects he doesn't excel either. I don't think he was particularly influential for his side, compared to Dani Alves who as a 'defender' had a higher delivery than him and did also many other things. Alves his ability to play in the so called 'half spaces' is underrated.
We should probably get off Alves Sevilla days soon as that isn't relevant here I just want to say, I agree with this. Just as Ronaldo has become very good at exploiting space, I think this is something that is underrated for Alves as well. Also, I'd argue he is an actual playmaking fullback. As in, you can actually give him the ball, and he can create something with it. Not just making overlapping runs and putting in cross. At his peak, he could also dribble quite well, and his passing was very good.
Yes I think there is a risk he gets maligned, further accentuated by his cerebral contemporary (and that Guardiola quote, we can make a book with them like "Foden the most talented ever" or that Bonucci, Pogba and Mandzukic are among his handfull all-time favorite players). The same has happened to "the tackler" Roy Keane for example - it was not how he was seen in his own time - or Denis Law to an extent (in his own time he wasn't seen as just a goalscorer), and Robben is also at risk although he himself is right there are many high level players who don't get remembered for a goal at the grand stage or a specific move, so if that 'cutting inside' sticks to him he counts his blessings. All the fine passes or quick improvisations (2nd example - assist with the head, then a 2nd assist with an overhead flick) might be forgotten. Yeah Marcelo was/is a terrific and offensively well-rounded footballer but, Filipe Luis is another alternative and defensively sound. Strange how he flopped massively at Chelsea, was out of his depth, and then quickly returned to Atletico. Marcelo his national team performances also really woeful at times, moving across the field dazed and confused (the 2014 semi final, only surpassed by David Luiz of his team). I thought Filipe Luis his fame was maybe concentrated too much in a few seasons during the middle of the decade but e.g. DBScalcio shows his high level lasts from 2012 to 2018 basically though the window of his international fame is smaller I think. Left back generally the least stacked position for these type of things. Back in the days 'we' just moved Edgar Davids over there for the national side Or Vertonghen to that place, the last decade. If they are good they get promoted to other places is the perception (Krol, De Boer and so on; even VvD started as a full-back with some flashes in key games).
Re: part in bold. It is further accelerated by that he comes across really well. Bit like Gullit in his playing days. Although it was a poor match with players below their level (but can see the idea going tight, fast and physical gives the Northern Irish what they want, and apparently the whole team had a look at Ireland's good match vs Germany) I was impressed by his play yesterday with one impressive dribble upfield which created a chance, a ball down the line and also some other opening passes. After the opening goal (only one of his team to not be at fault there) which is a recurring problem really good response by him and his team-mates - calmly passing down some instructions to the attackers (ofc from the back he has a good overview). He said (in the mandatory post-match interview as captain) he didn't panick because he knew the last quarter of an hour yards and seconds would open up and then the quality of the players starts to count, and it has also happened before with Liverpool and other teams. Was really fantastic in the last 15 minutes I thought. Also thought Jonny Evans of Northern Ireland was one of the best players on the field (despite being toe poked through his legs at the goal) and WhoScored backs up this impression (other players said the same). Anyway, personally I'd have Chiellini and Godin in for the decade as a whole, just as I wouldn't place Xavi in (because he's already pretty much a lock for 2005-2015). Can see why Iniesta gets in, and that people would be reserved to place say a Pogba, Kroos (see the 'Das Reboot' book of 2015 for an explanation) or Vidal in the side. Have to think about the midfield a bit better.
I'd settle with this personally I suppose: Neuer Dani Alves - Godin - Chiellini - Lahm Modric - Busquets - Vidal Robben - Messi - Ronaldo Without repeating previous comments by myself or others: 1) Best alternatives for Lahm as left back are Marcelo, Jordi Alba and Alaba in my view. 2) Goalkeeper can maybe be looked at, but doubt it whether someone else had the same additional influence, the same completeness and accomplishments (in a way all that showy 'sweeping up' and Cruyff-turns in his own penalty area are a distraction - it went horribly wrong in 2018 vs South Korea). All-time lists will probably give the impression Keylor Navas was just a passenger for those Real Madrid teams, but that's not true. 3) Comments on midfield alternatives (and yes, the lists I've checked show big variation in perception): - I rate Thiago Alcantara highly but apart from injury problems he has rarely fully established himself for Spain NT and was sometimes found wanting in KO games of the CL. Think of 2016 vs Atletico, the awful performance (and unforced errors) against Real Madrid a season later. He's someone for 2015-2025 if it all goes well. - David Silva I rate as well (higher than Iniesta, certainly for this window). More attacking midfielder than central midfielder though. - De Bruyne has been excellent for club and country since 2012. For example here in 2015 vs Italy. Has played World Cup and Champions League semi finals without ever being a big protagonist there (despite goals and assists vs Brazil, England in the World Cup; 2014 vs USA). His career 'deserves' a Champions League medal. One legitimate criticism is a relative lack of KO performances (though he has his 'forgotten' good games too, but an internationally famous marquee game like CS10 vs Bayern, United for example, or Keane vs Juventus would help - maybe I'm wrong but don't think he has that yet, and you have to be on the right side of the scoreline too). - Toni Kroos is analogous to Xabi Alonso - albeit less pronounced - a player with a user manual. There is something about this in the Das Reboot book, but here an overlap with those points. You can't let him shadow an old and slow Pirlo in a direct duel. Nevertheless a strong option, he was the overall best midfielder of the 2014 winners. Great tournament player, less good but still great league player (as his 'world class' designations also hint at). - Pogba probably would have been up there without his Manchester United spell. He needs a yard of space to be really effective though, but the range of abilities is self-evident. Goalscorer in various finals. - Pjanic somewhat underrated (he was fantastic at the 2014WC for Bosnia). Think he really got it going from 2013 onward and if he keeps it up until the age of 33 he is also a strong choice for 2015-2025. - Kante too much of a pure destroyer I guess and too limited overall despite his effectiveness. His argument would have a bump with various deep runs or wins with his club. Plus, only started to play above relegation fodder (in the 5th league) from 2015 onward. - Overall Vidal has a strong case for his Champions League finals (and performances, like last year and this year vs Inter), his league medals and performances for Chile too. At his best he had the skill and improvisation that is adequate for this list. 4) Enough has been said about Robben but as schwuppe mentioned/showed he has the 3rd best CL knock-out grades since his debut at that stage in 2005 (Chelsea reached semis). With likewise production. Next to the statistical effect on his teams (win percentage difference for Chelsea, Real Madrid and Bayern) I'm really tempted to give him the lucky remaining place, next to the two supermen, and he could be a serviceable player. 5) I advice people to google what Saul Niguez said about Busquets. Of course he has his limits if you put him in a Sam Allardyce team but (intuitive) brains, technique and effectiveness/influence go above raw muscle power. It is really true Barcelona's form has been completely analogues to the form, presence or injuries of Busquets. This would be my (humble) estimate.