American expansion possibilities

Discussion in 'NWSL Expansion' started by WPS_Movement, Dec 28, 2012.

  1. WoSoFan

    WoSoFan Member

    Dec 23, 2017
    I think the major problem for Sky Blue is finding an acceptable stadium where they can play their games. One that has the amenities for the fans and facilities for the players that will meet evolving league standards. It is clear the league does not want that to be a problem for future expansion teams, thus USL or MLS teams fit the bill with their stadiums and facilities, avoiding stadium problems right away, and leaving the league with only having to deal with the remaining owners who don't have the luxury of owning and/or operating their own stadiums. Another thing it does do is to open up the territory for other MLS teams and gives someone like the Red Bulls and NYCFC or someone else the chance to get their own franchise.
     
  2. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Well, if we're taking LaHue at her word, Sky Blue can make RBA work if they average 4.5k or so. It's probably not the best option since that sounds like the margins would be razor-thin for what's been the lowest-drawing team in the league, but being much closer to the city itself (and having a much better venue for the fans) might make up that difference. I still would be very surprised if NWSL forces Sky Blue to move with the momentum LaHue has brought to the organization.
     
  3. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Understanding the economics of playing an MLS sized SSS, I'm not buying that - especially in a market like the NYC era with its much hire operational costs.

    I'm guessing the game day rent at a facility like Red Bull Arena has to be 5-10 times what it costs to rent Sahlen's Stadium at WakeMed Soccer Park.

    It might potentially work if Red Bull owned the team, but I can't imagine that attendance level would be sustainable financially.
     
  4. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    That's why I prefaced that statement with "if". I questioned the economics of RBA in (IIRC) the Sky Blue thread.

    And to be fair, the Red Stars are playing in an MLS sized SSS and have been for years with average attendances not much higher than Sky Blue's.
     
  5. WoSoFan

    WoSoFan Member

    Dec 23, 2017
    The 4500 is cutting it pretty thin, especially if you don't have the luxury of the revenue of food and beverage concessions. One thing they would have to do is change ticket prices. Make them more in line with what Washington's prices are. It is amazing that with a range of $31.00 to $158.00 they have just about sold out the stadium. They sold-out all their expensive seats $105.00 to $158.00. If they can do that at those prices and at least draw 7000 for their second game there on Sept. 14 against the Reign., it might make since to rent Audi Field for the season. Only thing that concerns me is the second game looks like they haven't sold more then 4000 to 5000 at this point.
     
  6. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    And almost certainly losing money hand over fist while doing it.

    But not all MLS SSS are the same, and you left out the part of NYC metro. The demand for facility space in Bridgeview isn't the same as a venue off of the PATH train in Harrison.

    And while Chicago is a union town, I'm guessing the cost of the employees, and the number of employees needed to open Seat Geek is less than it is to open Red Bull - Just as old Giants Stadium cost the MetroStars a lot more than Soldier Field cost the Fire back in the late 90s.

    The problem is that a lot of metro regions in this country don't have good 5-10k seat options for professional soccer. Sahlen's Stadium is an exception, not the rule.
     
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  7. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Great point. Often overlooked here.

    Back in '05 or '06 when I was still publishing the ECG, we did an interview with then KC Wizards president Curt Johnson, and in a shocking moment of candor he indicated that the break-even point for the team at Arrowhead was probably around 18,000/game.

    The Wizards were paying nominal rent as Hunt Sports Group had full operational control of the stadium.

    Yet, when OnGoal built Sporting Park for the team six or seven years later, it opened with a capacity of only 18,500 and the added weight of close to $200 million in construction costs to pay off.

    The differences? Well sponsorship and concessions revenue for one, but the big one was ticket revenue. The Wizards were basically papering the house. With 80,000 seats available at Arrowhead, there was no real way to get people to buy tickets in advance. People overlook the importance of the 10,385 seat CommunityAmerica Ballpark years, but three years of the team having real ticket scarcity allowed the organization to bring ticket prices up and train the fan base that the only way to guarantee a seat was to get season tickets.

    Five thousand in Germantown might be more profitable than ten thousand at Audi Field on a game by game basis, but there are other factors at play that might make it worth a move in the long run.

    But Audi Field or Red Bull Arena at five thousand would likely be a disaster. And, yes, the Red Stars are in that situation, but what are their other options in Chicagoland? I've been to soccer at Northwestern, that's not an option. There really aren't any good ones. That's how the Fire ended up in Bridgeview.
     
  8. WoSoFan

    WoSoFan Member

    Dec 23, 2017
    #1258 WoSoFan, Aug 24, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
    We also could be overlooking the possibility that the Sky Blue ownership has had enough, and may be working with the league on finding a buyer. There might even be something going on with the Red Bulls wanting the team, which would be priority, but if that doesn't work out, they could do what they did with KCFC, with the league buying out Sky Blue and giving the players to a new franchise, Louisville City FC, in this case.
     
  9. toad455

    toad455 Member+

    Nov 28, 2005
    Red Bulls were heavily promoting the game. Though even with 9,400 there, it did look spread out and the upper bowl wasn't tarped off. Drawing only 5k there wouldn't look good.
     
  10. WoSoFan

    WoSoFan Member

    Dec 23, 2017
    No 5K wouldn't look good or probably would not be economically feasible for them. They would have to feel like they could do better then that.
     
  11. WoSoFan

    WoSoFan Member

    Dec 23, 2017
    Question was asked on the attendance thread as to the potential sell out for Sky Blues' last home game, and why didn't play it at RB arena? Which brings up the question what is going to happen with Sky Blue at the end of the season? We all assume, and hope that maybe things are turning around for them. But has it really been enough for ownership to continue throwing their money away. It could also be a political issue the governor may no longer want to be burdened with. They have said they are looking for another stadium to play in for next season. However, from what I have heard and read that may be easier said then done in meeting league requirements. Of course, there is RB arena, but from what I have read, that is too costly for them to play all their games there.

    Let's assume that all they have said and down at this point, which includes the renting of Red Bull arena for the one game, has been an attempt to try and create a better image of the team for the purpose of the selling.

    Two things that got my attention in recent weeks that leads me to believe that it may be a possibility. One is the statement made by Paulsen when he announced the 3 possible expansion teams in the next 2 years and the mention of Louisville City FC coming in in 2020, if Sky Blue needed to be relocated, otherwise they would be coming in in 2021. Of course, that could be a back-up plan if there is another interested party in the New Jersey area. I am sure the league would prefer to keep the team in the area. The 2nd thing, ties into the stadium issue which continues to be a problem for the remaining independent owners. Later, Paulsen also made the statement that they prefer investors that own and operate their own stadiums. That is pretty clear they are only talking about MLS clubs, and a few USL clubs, like Louisville City FC(stadium under construction) for right now.

    It is only speculation. Still it makes you stop and wonder about a lot of things. One thing for sure, whether you agree or disagree with me, it looks to be a very active off season.
     
  12. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very thoughtful comments. Thanks, let's hope things work out for SkyBlue to remain a mid-Atlantic team, even if they have to relocate a little.
     
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  13. toad455

    toad455 Member+

    Nov 28, 2005
    Sky Blue is looking for an alternative venue for next season. If, and only if, they can't secure one, then they relocate to Louisville.
     
  14. WoSoFan

    WoSoFan Member

    Dec 23, 2017
    I understand they are looking for another venue, and I did point that out, but also stated that it may be easier said then done because the league will most likely want to see them in a soccer specific stadium with more seating and better amenities for players and fans.
     
  15. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    More seating would be nice, but as long as the amenities are a massive step up I think they'd be fine. Even with two sellouts and 9k at RBA, their average is still gonna be well below 5k and I don't see them magically selling out a 5k stadium every game next year unless it was directly in NYC. Besides, a 5k "most games" stadium is working for DC just fine, so I don't see how NWSL can force Sky Blue's hand for more than that.
     
  16. toad455

    toad455 Member+

    Nov 28, 2005
    The best option for Sky Blue seems like the stadium at MSU. Seats 5,000 thanks to a recent expansion plan. They recently had its locker rooms upgraded, the Red Bulls development team plays there & has public transit available(not on weekends). If Sky Blue & the Red Bulls can work with NJ Transit to get trains their on weekend games, it's a lock for a new venue.

    https://montclairathletics.com/sports/2012/2/15/GEN_0215125117.aspx
     
  17. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    That certainly sounds like the best option available to me - then again, I don't know all the MiLB stadiums in the area they might be looking at as well. Still, getting a smaller but professionally-furnished venue for 2/3-3/4 of their games, with marquee games at RBA, sounds like a very workable plan if they can make it happen.
     
    toad455 repped this.
  18. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    The Chicago Fire haven't gotten a game train to the nearby tracks in Bridgeview in fifteen years, nobody is running a game special public transit for a 5,000 seat college venue.
     
  19. toad455

    toad455 Member+

    Nov 28, 2005
    Maybe they play most of their games at MSU with a select few games at Red Bull Arena. Hoping it happens for them and we expand with Louisville instead of relocate.
     
  20. toad455

    toad455 Member+

    Nov 28, 2005
    Curious when we get an announcement? During the championship game? Early in the offseason? I realized part of this delay might be Sky Blue relocating, but at this point, it doesn't seem likely. Do we just get Louisville for 2020 or Louisville & Sacramento?
     
  21. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    If you only just base things on precedent, we won't get an announcement until the offseason. Obviously, earlier would be nicer, but there hasn't been any real harm in late announcements yet. I'm sure a lot of meaningful expansion talk didn't really heat up until after the WWC, so that's a lot to talk about in a short time (July 2019 to March 2020) and trying to get everything lined up "early" (e.g. before October 2019) would be unlikely.
     
  22. WoSoFan

    WoSoFan Member

    Dec 23, 2017
    In Merritt Paulsen's statement he said that Sacramento Republic was to come in in 2020, and that Louisville would also come in 2020, only if Sky Blue needed to be relocated. If not, would come in in 2021 along with another expansion team. Atlanta United was mentioned, but who knows. Though it would be nice to get them. I do think they are going to try to avoid having an odd number of teams to avoid scheduling so many mid-week games.
     
  23. toad455

    toad455 Member+

    Nov 28, 2005
    I still wonder where LAFC stands? Is it dead and no longer interested? I mentioned them plus another team joining in 2022, but several people scoffed at the idea of adding 5 teams in 3 years.
     
  24. WoSoFan

    WoSoFan Member

    Dec 23, 2017
    Yeah I don't see that happening! If there are two teams willing an able to come in 2021, then you probably want see any expansion in 2022 or maybe even 2023 with the WWC. However, if they only have one team ready for 2021, I could see them waiting another year before expanding to 12 teams. By then who knows who will be interested.
     
  25. SiberianThunderT

    Sep 21, 2008
    DC
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Well, he didn't actually say anything about any team specifically. So attributing Sac, Louisville, or ATL to his statement isn't right. He also wasn't entirely consistent with himself - depending on what part of the conversation you read, the second potential 2020 expansion isn't necessarily a relocation either, especially since the only thing I've read about 2021 from him is one new team, regardless of how 2020 goes.
     

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