Coaching Philosophies and the Gregg Berhalter System

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Susaeta, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. kingshark

    kingshark Member+

    Mar 3, 2006
    Play out of back never means always play short passes around goalkeeper. Even in one of the best European football league, Steffen are not asked to play dumb short pass when surrounded by opponent's high pressure. We should play appropriate pass based on opponent's position and pressure line, not just stupid short pass and stupid back pass. If you want risk in friendlies, please let your guy Trapp play some forward ball when there are plenty of open space, not made goalkeeper to be the playmaker to deliver the ball. It's not playing out of back, it's bad tactics and insult of possession soccer.

     
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  2. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    peddle snake oil.
     
  3. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    EGGzactly.

    This calls for Berhalter to star in one of those Hitler rant video's.
     
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  4. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United, anywhere Pulisic plays
    Aug 3, 2000
    Proxima Centauri
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wil Trapp is the American Jorginho. Discuss.
     
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  5. Cubanlix63

    Cubanlix63 Member+

    AFC Ajax
    Feb 19, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Berhalter has obviously not done a good job so far but, I think it is complete nonsense the idea that we do not have to players to be able to play out from the back. Heck Steffen put up good passing stats under Berhalter in Columbus.
     
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  6. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    columbus berhalter is a completely different person
     
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  7. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Our player can do it at lower levels of competition (MLS/bottom of CONCACAF). They cannot do it at a faster smarter level.
     
  8. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We may or may not have the players to play out of the back.

    I don't think any country on Earth has the players to always play short passes out of the back. That's a training-ground drill, not a game plan.
     
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  9. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    The problem with playing 'aspirationally' now is opportunity to build a roster for the way team would eventually play when the games matter is missed. If 3G sticks with The System then he needs to overhaul the roster to suit what he is trying to implement. JK dipped his toes into trying to keep the ball, but bailed. We'll see if 3G will actually overhaul the roster, to give this style of play a chance to succeed.

    The US hasn't been hunkering down since the turn of the century. There's nothing wrong with playing counter-attacking soccer, a more apt description for how the US have played. On the way to their WC '17 title, France used it when they needed to.
     
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  10. harttbeat

    harttbeat Member

    Dec 29, 1998
    New York
    i didnt go through other threads but CP comments post game was interesting.

    "There needs to be a lot more movement and a lot more just creativity within the team and the confidence to go out and play against good opponents, we have to go out there and play like we're good enough to be out there and be confident and play without thinking twice about it. That's how it needs to be, and that's just not where we're at right now," concluded the American youngster.

    Is he implying himself and all his teammates are still confused about the system?

    When you have to think twice, either:
    1) you are not sharp (i,e. lack of sleep)
    2) you are nervous/timid
    3) speed of play is over your head
    4) still trying to figure out where the next guy is going

    Too bad i cant find other post game interviews from our guys to confirm this. If you have them, post them here.
     
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  11. Woodrow

    Woodrow Member+

    Dec 7, 2001
    Brick City
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Well, I think the problem of Berhalter's system is that it is very passive and slow. Building from the back is great if you want to slow the game down, collect one's wits, especially after a flurry of attacks from an opponent. It doesn't do so well when each back pass is an opportunity for the opponents to step up a little higher, forcing the build-up passes to be even shorter, or much longer, either of which is a higher risk. There was no one amongst the center mids who could effectively break lines, but in theory, a quick one-two between center mids followed by a pass into the attacking third would have forced Mexico to scramble. But, Trapp can't make these kinds of turns or quick-hitting passing plays, and McKennie can't do it alone.

    An alternative approach would be to let the US team be more aggressive, getting after opponents, taking a higher line, and using quick-hitting passes to break lines and get behind a defense. It's easier to build from the back when the opponent is on their heals. The US had more of the possession, but it was largely wasted trying to get the ball across the midfield line. That has a corrosive effect on a team's confidence and cohesion. I'd also argue that it doesn't reflect well the character of the way the US has played successfully, nor does it effectively make use of the pool of talent. A national team coach shouldn't be wasting his time trying to teach experienced, talented players how to play the game. He's not Bora Militunovic. These guys hall have day jobs playing professional soccer, most at very high level clubs. Just find a game plan that best utilizes their talents, and put the best, most in-form players out there to try and win. Get after teams. Put the pressure on.
     
  12. vexco

    vexco Member+

    Nov 2, 2013
    Then he should choose defenders capable of playing out of the back. Long and Zimmerman aren't those players right now. Neither are Lovitz or Ream for that matter. Brooks and who? I'd love to see Brooks and Alvarado pairing again.
     
  13. UncagedGorilla

    Barcelona
    Sep 22, 2009
    East Bay, CA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    This is exactly right. You have to choose players who can play this way. Brooks and Miazga could do it. Both were unavailable so who's next? Alvarado wouldn't be a bad choice at all.

    This is the same for outside backs. Dest is capable. Cannon is a good defender but a mediocre passer. If we're going to commit to this, a lot of our best defenders are going to struggle to perform in it. Our LB may need to be someone like Hollingshead and a Dest/Hollingshead outside back pairing is a bit light in pure defensive chops.

    Even Steffen isn't best suited to this system. We would probably need to drop down to Jesse Gonzalez to get the best GK for it but will his shot-stopping hold up at the international level?

    So, we could have a back five of Hollingshead, Brooks (let's just say Alvarado since we're dealing in reality), Miazga, Dest, and J. Gonzalez plus one of our terrible "registas" and continue trying to play this way. Or we could actually play our most talented players and fit the system around them...
     
  14. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Number one, but primarily because we have U-20s that have easily out possessed the Mexico U-20s. That still doesn't mean I'm not pissed off that he played that midfield trio. That was wrong. No ifs, ands or buts about that.

    Other talking points:
    1) the drop off from Pulisic to everyone else is extreme. This was the number one comment in Univision. Mexico currently much deeper.
    2) If Pulisic is convinced by Berhalter that is really all that matters. The rest of the U-20s will follow his lead.
    3) I don't think that Berhalter cares how bad we look in friendlies. Actual tournaments he will (probably) be more pragmatic.
    4) Confident possession is hard. Playing compact and hitting the long ball is much easier.
     
  15. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    France played it. Period. Right? That was their style of play.

    The thing that is insane about Egg's approach and the way Klinsi tried to play is they won't/wouldn't allow the counter when the counter was on. They're like Norman Dale in Hoosiers. "No Fast Breaks! Ever!!!!!!" It's ridiculous. Germany is kind of the model for build up play. And, if there is a quick attack opportunity *they'll* take it.

    The most reeeeeediculous element of what Klinsi did, Egg is doing is the "we have to recirculate the ball on free kicks" thing. In Concacaf, we get fouled every time we get 10 yards past the midline. And, we take all of those kicks sideways or backwards. If that's going to be the other teams' tactic, pump that ball into the box.
     
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  16. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    This is a problem when you're trying to bootstrap your way into being a possession team.

    Like Puli says - possession requires excellent, active off the ball movement. The problem with that is that if you're moving off the ball, you're taking yourself out of position to recover defensively. If you move off the ball and the recipient of the pass losses the ball, there's a good chance you're going to get burned on the change of possession. I think this is what Puli is saying when he says "without thinking twice about it." We're waiting to see if each pass is completed before anyone will move to get open for the recipient of the pass.

    If you're a good possession team, you're losing the ball less frequently, and further upfield, with more help behind you. No problem.

    But ..... if you're not, you're losing the ball in dangerous places.

    Here's where the rub, it's a vicious circle. To play possession, players have to be moving when they don't have the ball, and they aren't receiving the pass. There's the passer, the recipient ..... *someone* has to be moving while the ball is moving to the recipient of the pass and get open *before the recipient gets the ball*

    If we are waiting to see if the recipient gets the ball and keeps the ball to try to get open, the play is dead. The recipient has to know he has someone to pass to before the ball gets to him. And, if everyone is afraid, on every pass, that we're going to lose the ball - if they are waiting to see if the pass is completed before they move (because they are afraid to be out of defensive position) then you're not going to have a possession game. That's what has happened every time a U.S. manager has tried to play possession.

    Klinsi had a good run at the start of his tenure, where players were moving off the ball while the ball was being passed. But, that eventually faded away.

    And, I call it bootstrapping, because everyone has to decide that they are going to take the risk of being out of defensive position, in order to get open for the guy getting the pass. I'm not saying that everyone is moving off the ball on every pass - I'm saying that *someone* has to be moving off the ball on every pass - taking the risk that we'll lose the ball and it will be their defensive responsibility that gets attacked.

    And, I will say it again - not getting the ball upfield quickly when the other team is pressing, is just stupid.
     
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  17. Honore de Ballsac

    Oct 28, 2005
    France.
    #2192 Honore de Ballsac, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    I've heard this portrayed as Martino winning the chess match versus Berhalter, which is a riot.

    Give us four more queens on the board and I think we'd be expecting results rather than progress.

    I'd bet a lot on Berhalter beating Martino Friday if they switched squads.

    Hard not to call this game anything but a FAIL, but largely because the pro foreign coach/ anti-MLS / we shoulda hired Tata crowd is so vocal and already had their knives sharpened. GB's not going to be able to play a game vs our rival at the Meadowlands and act like it's a closed door scrimmage. That is head-up-your-ass arrogant, and we eventually wouldn't stand for that arrogance even from someone with JK's profile. GB can't come close to JK's profile. He has to prove himself with enough tangible results, while waging the p.r. campaign.

    Hopefully he learns and adapts from this, rather than just stubbornly doubling down.
     
  18. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Really? You think that this game was a FAIL not because of Berhalter's Bradley/Trapp-always-leading-the-team but rather due to (1) anti-MLS sentiment and (2) the USMNT not having enough talent to run with Mexico at home?

    If we're playing with four less Queens, why would we pursue a strategy contingent upon having superior technical skills?

    SMH.
     
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  19. Honore de Ballsac

    Oct 28, 2005
    France.
    Great question.

    No, I think the fail was on a lot of fronts. We're way behind Mexico at the moment, and trying to rebuild our top team almost from scratch. Classic Bruce would have us play this match much more pragmatically, because getting results builds confidence yadda yadda. GB is obviously trying to use an event like Friday's to build confidence in a higher level playing style and I can't see that working, seems pretty stupid. And P.R. tone deaf, which is no small consideration now.

    When we talk about a chess match though, we are pinning a lot of hope on coaching ingenuity, because it worked for so long for us against Mexico - when they weren't really evolving their game (seemingly, IMO) and we had built a big psychological advantage over them.

    Now, this was maybe foremost a big Berhalter fail, but c'mon... we were blooding Jackson Yueill when they were subbing in Chuckie Lozano. Our programs are in very different places and that's what GB inherited.
     
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  20. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    If we were playing our youth and playing aggressively, I could understand but the number one decision that Berhalter has made every game is to build around Trapp/Bradley. Because they have obvious short-comings, it creates a series of cascading compensations that put our best players in poor situations.

    We could have used Paxton instead of Yueill - he played better at the U20s than any of the Mexican lads.

    Face it. Berhalter is pursuing a look or a style of play and is doing it at the expense of actual results both now and in the future.
     
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  21. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    It's not coaching ingenuity - it's simply understanding each team's relative strengths and weaknesses and adjusting to them. For years, we've frustrated their higher skilled players with passionate team defense, grit and athleticism. We counter-attacked them and played to our physical attributes with continued success.

    Now, we want to beat them at their own possession game because it's a more attractive style of play. Call me crazy but there was nothing attractive about a 3-0 loss to a team that we used to own at home but hurray, we had more possession than Mexico for the first time!
     
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  22. Honore de Ballsac

    Oct 28, 2005
    France.
    Further to this question...

    I could say we're trying to play better soccer than we're known for. I'd even venture that we're trying to build a way of playing to improve our chances against "smaller" Concacaf nations that are getting better at stifling us.

    I would say Berhalter, with a young squad starting from scratch, thinks he can use his first year or two developing options for "systems" that allow our star players to star - like the first formation he put out there with the hybrid right back everybody's made such a big deal about. IMO that's a perfect role for Tyler Adams for the next few years. Westin McKennie had been lost in the woods at Schalke but playing like a 8/10 hybrid was a great starring role for him to grow into. Same for Christian Pulisic, who could also always move out to the wing in that system.

    But that "A game" we were playing relies on a deep lying playmaker, a Schweinsteiger type. I don't even mind playing with guys like Bradley or Trapp (or Zardes) for now so that some dudes create the template. But for the life of me I can't think of who we have coming up that would successfully fill that critical role. I haven't seen any Bradley/Trapp types upcoming. Have you? Is GB just thinking, well I've got almost everything I need for an apple pie, sure hope some apples drop in my lap?

    But too much has been made about that system (and Zardes/Sargent whatever) when I think GB's more than willing to switch up the system. I think what many of us might have a bigger concern with is those "principals of play" if those are the guns we're sticking to when they're embarrassing us against Mexico. I can see trying to be a better passing team - but Mexico's a B team in the global scheme of things, and we need principals which will serve us well against them and better. One of our principals had better be adaptability. (Which GB showed in MLS.)

    The second big problem I have with what I can glean from our "principals of play" is that our attack always seems to be dependent on swinging in a ton of crosses. That's part of GB's Dutch thing right? And I've seen too many teams have too many bad days when that's the game plan.
     
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  23. Honore de Ballsac

    Oct 28, 2005
    France.
    Sorry, I'm slow to reply but we're pretty much on same page looks like.
     
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  24. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know we are talking about COMPLETELY different levels of players, but I don’t see Ederson and Alisson always playing short passes. If they have a chance to go long, they take it. At the very least, the defense can’t jump all over the short ball.

    My son’s U12 team even understands this concept. They play out of the back (obviously developmental and not nearly as concerned about wins and losses), but 2-3 times a game the keeper makes a long throw or punt just to keep the other team honest. Not sure why a senior team national coach can’t get this point.
     
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  25. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why do you not think Adams can be that type of player? When healthy, he has shown some ability to distribute while still being a very good defensive midfielder.
     

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