Subjective overrated players

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Raute, Oct 21, 2015.

  1. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    On top of that according to his wikipedia page Redondo was voted EFE Latin-American Player of the Decade (would like a better source?) and made the AFA Alltime XI (Source link dead)
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #802 PuckVanHeel, Jul 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
    Yes I agree and it's also mostly his CL success where he won a good amount (two league medals, one domestic cup). He finished 5 of the 10 seasons outside the top three with a big club; a number of his midfield colleagues at national team and club were more stable in that regard (edit: Seedorf 5/16 for example, including the Inter period). With Tenerife his best result is a 5th place, then 10th place; before that in South America an 8th place.

    His ability with the ball is really good, and the distribution too despite lacking a final pass or killer ball.

    This did happen in 2000. He was though never voted as the EFE best for an individual year (2000: Herrera of Deportivo Alaves :D).

    It was also a strange year for Real Madrid. Poor domestically (5th) and erratic in the Champions League in the 2nd group stage... Redondo didn't look great in the 2nd group stage wasn't it? (conceding 11 goals in 5 games) To be fair a midfield with McManaman, Guti etcetera was asking for trouble but that was precisely one of my points/observations: he couldn't anchor a midfield by himself, he needed a Karembeu, Gattuso, Seedorf, Simeone andsoforth alongside/beneath him.

    Then came the big turnaround in the quarter finals, and another great performance in the final... One wouldn't say if you saw him against Dynamo Kiev and Bayern in the 2nd group stage...

    Yes this was January 2019...
     
  3. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    #803 schwuppe, Jul 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
    Real in that 1998 - 2002 period might look like a dominant team at first with their 3 CL, but their overall record wasn't all that amazing. Both the '98 and '00 victory we're a bit of a surprise and they weren't generally favored going into the CL.

    Very different to the recent era.

    CL Odds from 25.3.2000 (3 days after the 2nd groupstage was over)
    Barca 3-1
    Man Utd 100-30
    Bayern 7-2
    Lazio 4-1
    Real Madrid 14-1 !!!
    Chelsea 14-1
    Valencia 16-1
    Porto 33-1

    Marca did a Juve- Real player comparison before the 1998 final:
    desred.PNG

    2000 Real - Valencia:
    [​IMG]

    Mendieta was really good at that point, don't think it's that controversial.
    Maybe Casillas (who was in his first season) > Canizares and Farinós (no clue about him) > Macca

    edit: alright I checked 1998 and they were 3-1 to win the CL in Nov '97. Juve was favored in the Final though IIRC
     
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  4. railita

    railita Red Card

    Aug 1, 2019
    2. Pele, 3 time WC winner, never the best player of the team, over 1000 goals, in exhibitions and nazi movies.
     
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  5. railita

    railita Red Card

    Aug 1, 2019
    yeah, he faded too early. that is why I don't think he is best of best. and long time ago, he was regarded below than B. Charlton & Matthews, but nowaday he is greatest British player. it is awkward. I think his tragedy attracts media, and make him more popular. I think Tostao is more unlucky, and more dreadful player.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    For the 'fans' one: do you mean the Onze Mondial poll?

    Do you have an idea why FUWO stopped with it in 1971 and the mid-1970s?

    That Yugoslavian magazine (Sport) does effectively the same thing though as FUWO from the early 70s to early 80s (with journalists asked from all over Europe).
     
  7. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Yeah. World Soccer too.

    No idea.

    I found some from the early 60s, it looks like they started doing it way earlier.

    From GdS:
    1962/63 Belgrade European XI (They don't specify which magazine)
    Yashin
    Armfield
    Schnellinger
    Trapattoni
    Maldini
    Masopust
    Rivera
    Greaves
    Eusebio
    Law
    Charlton
     
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  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Cool. Can you post those maybe?
     
  9. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Sorry meant *one not some
    I only have the 62/63 XI.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Okay thanks. I know from that year there was also a Parisian/French survey among 33 journalists in Europe.

    July 1963:

    Bernard; Armfield, Maldini, Trapattoni, Schnellinger; Coluna, Masopust, Kopa, Eusebio, Rivera and Moulijn.

    https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ABCDDD:010837488:mpeg21:a0175
    (among other links)

    I was surprised about Kopa a bit, but he had re-discovered his form somewhat including a good match against England.

    edit:

    Here another one from the end of 1979 (you might've seen it before)

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. ffff15

    ffff15 Member

    Argentina
    Sep 29, 2021
    most overrated players ever
    Ronaldinho(One of the top 50)
    S Ramos(One of the 10 15 best central defenders ever)
    Zidane(15)
    Nazario(15-20)
    C Ronaldo(Top 10)
    Maldini( Baresi was better player,30-40)
    Romario(40)
     
  12. harms

    harms Member

    Oct 2, 2021
    There are a few players that don't match their reputation going by an eye test.

    Laszlo Kubala is one of them — supposedly he was the main reason for Barça to build a new stadium (so many fans wanted to watch him, they needed to expand), he was considered by many contemporaries to be somewhat comparable to Di Stéfano and he's also officially Barcelona's greatest ever player (to be fair, the vote date kinda takes Messi out of the equation but he has beaten Cruyff for example).

    Perhaps he is unlucky with the footage that survived until this day but he really doesn't look that special. A very good player, of course, but the only true standout thing about him that I witnessed is his physique — he looks awfully weird, more like a boxer than a footballer — but it's not like he used it to bully defenders. A good dribbler with a good strike from both feet but I expected way more.

    Mario Coluna is another one for me. Unquestionably the second most important player of that Guttmann's Benfica, he had such an odd combination of skills. He had an outstanding shot on him, his passing was usually quite accurate and he was strong as a bull — you'd expect Matthäus-lite going by this description but he really wasn't. He was always somewhere in-between — not really nimble or quick-feeted enough to be an outstanding number 10, too static to be a world-class number 8 and not positionally sound to be a sitting playmaking number 6...

    Jairzinho is another one, probably. A very good player but in his case that 1970 performance was so iconic that he is usually judged solely by it. The label of Garrincha's successor is also an odd one (even though it's completely understandable where it comes from) as he was nothing like Garrincha in terms of his playing style — but many expect him to be a tricky winger. He should be compared to athletic (wing)forwards like Blokhin, Rummenigge etc. — and he won't be at the top of my list personally. In the recent FourFourTwo list he's ahead of Rummenigge, Stoichkov & Kempes and I'm not even talking about the likes of Sheva that are simply absent from that list.

    Socrates may be another one although in this case I fully understand where the overrating is coming from. He was just so cool and so unique, on and off the pitch. Same, probably, goes for Zidane for similar reasons — truly exceptional and magical player, one of the most aesthetically pleasing footballers ever, but when he gets picked over Luis Ronaldo as the best player of that generation, over Michel Platini as the best French player ever (although you can make an argument for him being a better player for France — semantics) and, generally, in top-10 of all-time (in the above-mentioned FourFourTwo list he's placed 5th — ahead of Cruyff, Puskás, Di Stéfano, L. Ronaldo and Beckenbauer!), the overrating goes too far.
     
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  13. ffff15

    ffff15 Member

    Argentina
    Sep 29, 2021
    #813 ffff15, Oct 21, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2022
    Things that make a player overrated
    One of the best scorers in history: Like Romario, whose scoring statistics made him overrated, we should also pay attention to the past players and not be fooled by their statistics, I'm not saying that scoring is bad, but scoring is more famous than other factors, that's why a striker is overrated compared to a midfielder.
    Scoring in critical moments:Like Sergio Ramos,a few of his goals in critical moments have made magazines like France Football go crazy and put him among the top 3 defenders in history!
    Beautiful technique and playing style: ronaldinho,zidane and ronaldo nazario
    Most of the people in the world only care about the appearance and have nothing to do with the inside! They are also emotional
    That's why a player like Ronaldinho is overrated
    In addition to zidane style of play, he has scored several sensitive and beautiful goals that have made him overrated
    For example, the 2002 final, where he had an bad game, but the goal made everyone forget his performance
    Or Panenka's penalty in the 2006 cup final
    handsome: Like Maldini and Beckham
    The legend of a great team: Zidane and many players
    Zidane's coaching period has made him very popular among the fans
    brutality: Cantona
    historical and spectacular moment:Like Banks, who is remembered for his famous save against Pele.
    Many trophies:The performance of the player is hidden under the success of the team
    political issues: Socrates
    Even though Ronaldo is one of the top 10 11 players, he is in many cases
     
  14. Cruyff14910

    Cruyff14910 New Member

    Netherlands
    Jan 2, 2022
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #815 PuckVanHeel, Dec 21, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2022
    Also to @PDG1978 (and at the risk of repeating myself)
    I do not have much against him personally. I think he comes across as a friendly and mannered person (similar things have been said about .



    "A footballer as guest, a footballer who even I recognize! That will say something and signifies he must have been very good."
    [...]
    "You have grown up in Heemstede ['Hempstead' in English]. That is a posh village right?"
    --"You think?"
    "Aerdenhout, Heemstede, that are among the most prosperous parts."
    --"No, no, just a friendly place. Green. Not posh."
    "Not many very rich and elitist people there"
    --"There are rich people but not like you say this neighborhood is defined by poshness."
    "What for family have you grown up in? Were you well off?"
    --"Not like I felt. A labour family. My father worked at the Hoogovens, in Wijk aan Zee [some may know this from a chess tournament]. My mother too. Was a bit sick, had asthma. Two brothers and a sister."
    "Not the jackpot"
    --"No, but if you start to compare..."
    "Religious? Not religious"
    --"No, never. My father was a Catholic, my mum secular. And myself too from birth"
    "Never went to church either?"
    --"I had a young friend who went to the church. So I said, if you will join me with football, I will go with you to the church." [laughs]


    Thing is though that he is habitually and regularly placed in a top 100 footballers of all-time. Until this day (by the 'corners of contempt', enabled and sorted by factors like this).

    I do not doubt he was a world class player (note however also how he was sometimes missing for Barcelona; like the 1977-78 UEFA Cup run to the semi finals; missing the other Johan was clearly far, far more disastrous). But I also think he belong somewhere between 15 and 30 of his own country, and was roughly as good as Edgar Davids of which Xavi said only then a light started to flick with him and found his mode (Davids didn't play in a WC final like Neeskens, or won three ECs - this is the scoreboard journalistics; Davids played 5 European finals, of which 4 CL finals, 6 times domestic champion, 6 times runners-up, three semi finals with the national team etc.). I think Cruijff, Van Basten; Wilkes, Rensenbrink, Van Hanegem, Gullit, Rijkaard, Bergkamp and Robben all should be higher by a margin. He is closer to the level (over a period of five years, with diminished relevance to longevity) of a Koeman, Seedorf (check how he secured CL qualification for Real Madrid in the last day of 1998-99, creating three goals) or Van Dijk than being there just behind Gullit (also overrated in his own way and for his own reasons, as in that he is NOT a level better as Bergkamp or Robben or De Bruyne). I think Hazard and De Bruyne are a class higher than Neeskens too (+ Ceulemans, maybe Van Moer - not surprised to see SofaScore putting him very high for 1970 - and Van Himst). I understand there is a subjective element to it, but I don't see the top 25 (Glanville), top 50 or top 100 thing.

    I should also add I have wondered whether that 1970s generation is overrated in general (compared to before and later). My conclusion is that it does mostly add up and compute. The puzzle pieces do connect to a large extent. This is nonetheless a thing worth asking given how other expressions of popular culture have spread around (other countries would say: "that was genius" - he changed the words and script). Basically - and to exaggerate somewhat: ask people about the 'greatest' actor, guitarist (think of Akkerman, Van Halen), pop act, song or whatever from 'Holland' and you'll often get the same generation.

    edit: I have been sometimes surprised about what PDG1978 knows. Like what he knew about the background of the flag, and that it changed orange to red.
     
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  16. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Certainly, one of the things I find most interesting is how Neeskens have been elevated to the 2nd best player in the 1970s Netherlands, at the expense of someone like Krol and Hanegem. The latter is particularly tragic because the contemporaries rated him like neck to neck with Cruyff (unless the translations of those sources I read were wrong).
     
  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Has this guy been mentioned yet


    Surely a shout for most underrated great midfielder in the premier league history

    If not Europe( during 2006-2009)


    A midfield pairing of kante and Essien would’ve been bulletproof
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I do think the demographic factors were the most favorable (in absolute numbers the under-20 population was higher), and also how it was still a 'white sport'.

    In contrast, the populations of Argentina and Brazil have continued to grow and continue to be young. The state league Pele played in had a population of 10 million (something which those 'praised' tpmozombo joke/thrash posts do not talk about, when the comparison with Spain is made) and was heavily skewed towards the bottom (Sao Paolo more so than Brazil in general). Many people died before they had reached 20. The premature deaths are today lower.

    If one thinks as 'talent' having a Bayesian distribution, one might also wonder what it meant that many of Pele his peers in Europe either died/disabled in the war (certainly the physically able and talented had that risk) or suffered from malnutrition - still a reality for a few years after 1945 (working through the rest of your life and the offspring).

    (This is not a criticism of Pele because he also still excelled, well beyond his state league, when the 'babyboomers' entered the scene)
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Nice post Puck. On the 'rating/placement within a list' aspect, I guess you wouldn't expect me to automatically change all perceptions (maybe that is the best word really) or estimations about it, although I'm sure that on some topics your info or viewpoint has swayed me in the past for valid reasons, but I would say:
    - Maybe the position/role has something to do with it (outside the Netherlands it might be thought he has more chance to be considered among the best as a box to box player, than even for example a class player like Bergkamp does to be considered among the absolute best as a supporting attacker).
    - I suppose it can be seen two ways: on one side the "was he really significantly better than Davids?" question, but on the other side (merging with my above point maybe) the "was he really significantly less useful overall than a Matthaus?" question (with Matthaus, though I know you also feel wrongly, often placed on the verge of a top 20 list of great players by various people or sources).
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Going off on a slight tangent Puck, but I remember you mentioned Neeskens' 'seal dribbling' before, and actually I spotted this video now which has a moment from the East Germany game where the British commentator does say "almost like a seal"!
    Johan Neeskens skills and composure at #WorldCup74 - YouTube
    I've noticed Pele had occasional moments doing similar things, but it's pretty unusual in general I guess!

    I remembered this particular poll (of World Soccer readers in 1999) did have Neeskens and Davids quite close - I guess it was a good moment for Davids to get votes in a poll like that (after World Cup 1998 and his impact at Juventus too), though also perhaps a period in which 70s players would get a decent amount of votes generally due to age demographics of the voters, so Neeskens might have benefitted more than he would now (with less voters born long after he played and perhaps more who were young when he did play...and certainly more who were already quite old when he played)
    England Player Honours - World Soccer Players of the Century (englandfootballonline.com)

    EDIT - It did cross my mind re: Van Hanegem that his late 60s Feyenoord form in the Dutch league would be more 'hidden' than pretty much all of Neeskens's Ajax career (from an International audience I mean, not a Dutch domestic one). Not to say I'm sure I'd be putting WvH top 50 all-time easily if only I could see more of his 60s form or something like that, but I remember Puck you posted info from I think it was mid 68/69 where he was right among the top rated players so far in the season according to game by game ratings for example. Of course he was also a prominent 70s player too though.
     
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #821 PuckVanHeel, Dec 22, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2022
    Again I do not have something against him (in the interview he tells nicely about how he started playing with the ball almost each day from the age of two onward; how the school was close to the football field etc) and see he was very good, was entertaining even, with some technical things not immediately visible on the eye. My dad played three times against him and my uncle was in the same school (I told/showed you this before).

    But I think it is illustrative how Van Hanegem his SofaScore rating in 1974 approaches the one of Neeskens (0.27 difference). He scored 0 goals (and 1 assist, to be fair), Neeskens 5 goals. He was in one game subbed out very early (after a half a hour against Bulgaria), Neeskens was not - that's a negative for the algorithm. Neeskens approached the best form of his career, Van Hanegem definitely not (he indeed was close to topscorer honors in 1968, missed out because of not taking penalties - this was a demonstration of his range imho; scored 1 in 2 in the european cups).

    How should we rate Deyna? Also top 100 at least? (Sorry that this sounds 'argumentative') Half a century later: De Bruyne?

    Davids played with Zidane, Bergkamp and Ronaldinho; Neeskens with the Johan and the Franz. I can well see the swap taking place, with the (approximately, rolling the dice again) same outcomes.

    No ill feelings and wish you a good holiday.
     
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  22. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    What would you say Neeskens playstyle is most similar to? I know you've compared him to Davids here, but I don't think you're actually saying that they're the most familiar? Even Neeskens highlights don't show the level of ball control ability that Davids did on a regular basis.
     
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The best idea I could come up with I think is possibly Roy Keane (but actually a bit more technical/fluid in possession, at least if in 'good nick' in that respect), which possibly I said to you before but I wouldn't blame you for forgetting (I must have forgotten about Puck's Dad and Uncle re: Neeskens and that is a great fact) and anyway I understand you are asking Puck not me lol (just re-iterating my idea to throw it in there though).

    Whether I agree on ball control relative to Davids I'm not completely sure (all-round; and again if thinking of Neeskens on a 'best day'), but specifically on dribbling I would, because that was a stand-out attribute for Davids, when he himself was at his best, I'd say (certainly compared to other box to box players), helped by good acceleration/agility with the ball I think but also being very comfortable from a dribbling skill aspect. In that 1999 poll he got more votes than Keane and of course Vieira (and both of those continued to make a mark in the 00s but especially in the UK were well known and rated in the 90s already of course; and besides every voter who gave Davids points was theoretically putting him top 10 all-time even if perhaps some voted more on the basis of giving points to players they wanted to see in a top 100, or some voted for only recent players...so those types of things probably saw his points tally rewarded), so yeah at that point he was a very highly rated player (I have a book where he's featured among about 125 'all-time' players too from the early 00s), but his name is less prominent now I suppose than it was back then.
     
  24. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    That's the thing about peak Davids. Most central midfielders' best dribbling days are like a random Tuesday to him.

    Even if you take the overall technical package, its not so clear to me, for example, that Neeskens passing were better than Davids either, at least those quick incisive passes. I don't have great memories of through ball and long ball abilities of either.
     
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  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    From memory the best Neeskens pass I can think of might be this one to Cruyff vs Celtic (I guess you will realise which it is without me pinpointing it!):
    1971 March 10 Ajax Amsterdam Holland 3 Celtic Glasgow Scotland 0 Champions Cup - YouTube
    I remember Puck did show a few good passes from as late as the 80s by him previously though too (I do remember a good amount of what Puck told me, including his coach/teacher saying he should play like Eusebio etc...but he told me a lot over the years and sometimes I temporarily forget something of course). I don't think his passing was in general close to Netzer's or Cruyff's own for example, thinking about the early 70s times but I guess compared quite well to some similar-ish players in terms of role (maybe Bonhof or Kasperczak?).
     

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