USL General News thread

Discussion in 'United Soccer Leagues' started by thefishy, Sep 28, 2014.

  1. Blando13

    Blando13 Member+

    Dec 4, 2013
    Lee's Summit, MO
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For the USL owners or whoever want to push MLS2 teams to League 1. North Texas should be the first thing they mention when MLS says they want their "2" teams playing against a higher level than League 1 to better develop them. North Texas is owning League 1 and developing better players than any other MLS team going ... just look at the USMNT and USYNT rosters this window ... covered in FC Dallas players.
     
  2. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Before we declare NTSC eternal champions of L1, it's important to remember that half their points came in the first 9 games, while they had Pepi. They were averaging 2.44 ppg. They've been good in the 15 games since, but their ppg is 1.46 or so, which is lower than Lansing's for the year.
     
  3. Blando13

    Blando13 Member+

    Dec 4, 2013
    Lee's Summit, MO
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very fair ... but that's what you want as an MLS team with a "2" team. You want the first half to be great and you to bring players up to MLS and if that means your "2" team struggles more ... so be it ... you were able to use a MLS"2" player in MLS ... which is the point. You want your "2" team developing ... North Texas is doing that ... that's more important than the standings ... sorry if I lead you to believe that the NTSC "gold standard" were based on standings ... no, it's on development!
     
  4. Lewis N. Clark

    Jul 1, 2014
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Yeah, that's the mixed bag of being a "minor league" or development team. When guys get good...they're gone! And then the team suffers. But everyone knows that's the purpose of the minor league team: to get guys into the majors.
    But the fans stay attached to the player. People in Omaha still love Mike Moustakas even though he left the Royals and is with the Brewers. We remember when he was "ours" and we would cheer "Moose!" when he came to the plate, and if he hit one deep we would try to will it over the fence. Nothing erases that.
     
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  5. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I'm not disagreeing with you, it just seemed like the implication was that NTSC was such a class above the rest of the league, when it seems like it mostly just that Pepi was.
    It's sort of like when half of Tacoma's starting 11 are from the Sounders first team.
     
  6. aetraxx7

    aetraxx7 Member+

    Jun 25, 2005
    Des Moines, IA
    Club:
    Des Moines Menace
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly. It's just like all of the current Cubs that spent time in Des Moines before their first call ups (especially key guys like Bryant, Almora, and Schwarber). Sure, we love to watch stars on "rehab" assignments to AAA, but watching future stars develop in our city - many of whom genuinely have positive attachments to our city after they've left - is an amazing opportunity that builds fandom.
    Minor league cities either embrace it or live under the delusion that they are almost as big as New York. I'm thankful that I live the former and not the latter. Personally, I'd rather support a team and its players as part of the ladder than support a team that loses its talent randomly (as an independent minor league) via signings to higher or better paying teams. I'd also rather support the baseball-style minor league system than to watch my team wallow in mediocracy and either drop down the leagues or end up like Portsmouth, Leeds, Wimbeldon, Bolton, and Bury.
     
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  7. Blando13

    Blando13 Member+

    Dec 4, 2013
    Lee's Summit, MO
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the that would work well, especially if you get a USYNT player playing for your city (getting more typical for those players to play at the D2/D3 levels) and they go on to USYNT or USMNT success.
     
  8. Blando13

    Blando13 Member+

    Dec 4, 2013
    Lee's Summit, MO
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nope, I was meaning from a strickly developmental standpoint ... the fact they're winning at the D3 level is gravy.
     
  9. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Yes, which is why, as a fan who wants to cheer on a team in my town, I don't understand why people would prefer to have a reserve team.

    Which gets to:
    There are more TFCIIs or OCBs than RBNY2s, though. I don't really see how the fan experience in MiLB applies to soccer. Even watching the "development process" involves dudes hitting dingers or making acrobatic catches. Stealing bases, double plays, etc.

    "Working on the midfield play" or "improving our game out of the back" isn't really compelling sport.
     
  10. Blando13

    Blando13 Member+

    Dec 4, 2013
    Lee's Summit, MO
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sure ... I get that ... I thought we were talking about if NTSC were good or not, not about why you as "a fan" would want (or not want) to go see them. If you don't like seeing players like Pepi in their early stages ... yep, probably stay home and watch something else on TV.
     
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  11. aetraxx7

    aetraxx7 Member+

    Jun 25, 2005
    Des Moines, IA
    Club:
    Des Moines Menace
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because have live professional soccer with a sustainable model that has been proven by three of the Big Four is better than the demonstrated alternatives of fly-by-night teams and leagues or teams that fail to understand expenses and go bankrupt.
    To the second point, a soccer far cares about midfield play and playing out of the back; they're part of the game. The end goal of developing players capable of winning is the same across MiLB, the AHL & the ECHL and the NBAGL. Why wouldn't a fully realised MLS minor league follow suit? Minor league development teams that don't make an attempt to win find themselves relocated or reaffiliated.
     
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  12. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    "Big 4". The one Big 4 league that is remotely analogous to the team play in soccer has had zero success in making a development league work.

    Also, I seriously doubt Anaheim could care less that the Bay Bears just left Mobile for Huntsville to become the "Trash Pandas" as long as they keep developing prospects. The ones calling the shots have zero interest in whether or not fans in Binghamton or Des Moines are sufficiently entertained.
     
  13. aetraxx7

    aetraxx7 Member+

    Jun 25, 2005
    Des Moines, IA
    Club:
    Des Moines Menace
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you are referring to the NFL being the "remotely analogous" league, I'm going to respectfully disagree. The NFL has not been successful in making minor league football work because the league itself hasn't really tried. NFL Europa was not domestic and its predecessor played during the offseason. Because the league has not operated or coordinated with a minor league during its season, you cannot claim that "it has had zero success in making it work." The other side of the coin is that there are 130 FBS teams (plus ll of the FCS, D2, D3, and NAIA programs) demanding fan and TV support during the NFL season. Although it is not a true minor league, it is a fully realized development system that plays during the same season as the NFL. Sure, there are no call ups, but NFL teams have practice squads and other systems of filling injuries and weak spots during their 16 game, once-a-week season (still half of MLS's season). The NFL doesn't have a minor league system because it really doesn't need a minor league system.
    I'd argue that the NHL more analogous because, like soccer, it is a niche sport in the US. The NHL struggled to make minor league hockey work for decades. During that time, some teams had individual affiliation deals with AHL, IHL, ECHL, UHL, and WCHL teams. It all clicked when the IHL decided it wanted to compete with the NHL (sounds familiar?) and the AHL agreed to become the AAA partner of the NHL. The IHL died and then the ECHL moved into a formal AA deal with the NHL and AHL. The WCHL merged with the ECHL and the UHL died.
    Looking at our lower tier soccer leagues, this is exactly what has been happening since MLS came about (and also before). The USL has stabilized because of its MLS affiliation deal, not in spite of it.
    Baseball proved that this model works. I cannot speak for anything below AA, but MLB teams have proven that they will not affiliate with teams that don't draw. Part of the development process is playing in front of crowds. If there is no crowd, then you are missing part of the development. The other side is that minor league sports cost money. You still need facilities among other things. Fans help pay expenses. Fans also vote and spend the tax dollars to build these facilities. If you honestly think that minor league teams don't play "the stadium game" similarly to major league teams, then you really don't know what you are talking about.
    Des Moines is six hours from Chicago. If butts in the seats and extending the fanbase didn't matter, the Cubs would have moved their AAA team to Indianapolis or the Quad Cities a long time ago. We have one of the longest-standing affiliations because the I-Cubs are supported. St. Louis put their team in Memphis and the Royals have been with Omaha for similar reasons.
    The soccer minor league system is still working out the kinks. Obviously having low-drawing second teams in their first teams' markets is an issue. Those teams are truly only focused on developing players (winning is clearly a secondary goal). As the system matures and MLS stops expanding, it will give way to true affiliates akin to the NBA, MLB, and NHL systems or it will "correct" itself into a separate reserve league and an independent lower level league, both of which will flounder more than what we currently have.
    My evidence comes from the numerous failed and struggling lower level, independent football, hockey, baseball, basketball, and soccer leagues that we've seen come and go over the last three decades. Teams fail because of ill-equipped owners and management. Leagues fail for the same reasons on a much larger scale.
     
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  14. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    College football is not remotely like a development league. They operate far more like independent clubs: their focus is on winning, not preparing them for NFL. The fact that college football and basketball is so heavily supported, despite it being, in every way shape and form, a "worse" game than their pro counterparts undermines your whole argument.

    I also think hockey is a bad analogy for two main reasons:
    1) Hockey is a fast-paced sport with lots of scoring and offense. It's more akin to basketball in that regard and a single player can make an enormous impact on the game. When there is a lot of offense, even bad sports can be fun (see again, college football).
    2) Hockey is a niche sport because the places where you can play it are extremely limited. Most cities do not have an arena suitable for a hockey team and if they do, they can charge accordingly. How many small-to-medium sized cities have hockey arenas vs. stadiums?

    Minor league hockey is doing better now than in the independent days because it's capitalized. A club system is going to be extremely hard to pull off when you have an extremely small number of potential clubs/leagues for a buying/selling economy; very limited places to play and high ice time costs; a relatively small pool of players. When you add the fact that they can spend whatever meager budget they have on marketing instead of players (and the fact that even bad hockey can be fun to watch) it's pretty easy to see how this would have helped. I also guarantee that "hockey development" is different than soccer development (or football development) would look like.

    Soccer, on the other hand, is extremely low scoring and not particularly enjoyable when it's bad unless you're invested in one of the teams.

    The MLS reserves impact on USL has certainly been more about keeping travel costs down: especially in the west. What else have they contributed? Their performance on the field hasn't really been exceptional, on average. About half the teams make the playoffs in each conference each year. The ones that don't tend to really miss them. They haven't even really been all that more dependable than independent teams: you've had VWC2, FC Montreal and OCB all drop out. I don't really see how the have influenced USL more than the NASL teams joining, except that they started earlier.
     
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  15. Burr

    Burr Member+

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Jul 8, 2014
    Tampa, FL
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You forgot to mention hockey also has fighting and big hits, even at the minor level. Some people are just fans of the violence, lol.
     
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  16. aetraxx7

    aetraxx7 Member+

    Jun 25, 2005
    Des Moines, IA
    Club:
    Des Moines Menace
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I specifically said that it was not a minor league. Players develop in NCAA football. Unlike basketball, most future pro athletes play all four years; basketball has a lot of one-and-done athletes. NBA-bound players tend to play what has become a compulsory season and then bolt. Football players generally last longer than their compulsory two years of college and continue to develop throughout that time frame. MLS legitimately tried to make soccer work this way throughout its first decade plus, but has switched to internal development through academies and their rudimentary minor league system.
    Also, "bad football" is still heavily watched - especially on Friday nights. Even non Power 5 teams have followings that NHL, NBA, MLB, and MLS teams would kill for.
    Lots of scoring? What hockey are you watching? Most NHL teams average less than 3 goals per game AFTER all of the rule changes designed to increase scoring. Relative to soccer that's one team scoring the total of an average national team (average of 2.6 goals per game in the 2018 WC). That's nowhere near the NBA... Sure, it's faced paced at times, but so is soccer. It also has more stops in play than basketball. There is no shot clock and a lot of cycling the puck, which is as slow as midfield play in soccer.
    Look at the USHL map (half of the league is in Iowa). Look at the map for the NAHL. A lot of very small cities and differing climates in there. Granted, these are junior leagues, but most seat 1000 or more. If you remove high school stadiums from the equation, then it seems like hockey arenas are more prevalent than you think.
    So if minor league was capitalized in the same way, doesn't it stand to reason that it would be equally successful? If the MLS teams pay the salaries in the same manner as MLB, NHL, and NBA teams, how would it be different? Wouldn't they have marketing money free as well? That's literally what I've been saying and you're arguing against that.
    A small pool?! Hockey works as a great comparison because it's a semi-global sport (Africa and Central/South America are really the only missing areas) with development and professional teams throughout the Northern hemisphere. We have NHL players from at least 42 states, including Arizona.
    You do realize that all six hockey positions and the various line roles have specific needs and skills, similar to the eleven on a soccer pitch, right? It's not like a team will call a grinding LD up to play center on a scoring line... My gut is telling me that you've rarely watched hockey, let alone played it. I'm guessing you've really never watched AHL or ECHL hockey either.
    [
    Financial stability IS the contribution. It's still relatively new and is definitely still developing. The MLS "brand" also brings legitimacy the way that the other three leagues bring legitimacy to their minor leagues. There's a reason for every recent planned and failed spring football league trying to become the official minor league for the NFL; the brand legitimacy of the major league is HUGE in itself.
    I understand why you dislike the idea, but if you really try to understand why the model works here, you'd understand why it seems like the model soccer will adopt HERE. It's not necessarily what I want, but it does appear to be the only way to ensure longevity at the lower levels.
     
  17. aetraxx7

    aetraxx7 Member+

    Jun 25, 2005
    Des Moines, IA
    Club:
    Des Moines Menace
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Except that fighting has been drastically reduced in North American leagues...
     
  18. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    The lowest scoring teams in AHL and ECHL scored roughly 2.5 and 2.4 goals per game last season. 3.5 and 4 per game for the highest, respectively. 5 or 6 goals in 60 minutes feels pretty high scoring compared to soccer? In comparison, the lowest scoring teams in USL-C and L1 are scoring less than a goal per game. In the case of the latter, 1/3 of the league is averaging a goal or less. YTD there have 2.53 goals scored per game and 3.07 in the Championship.
    I used to watch it a lot, but admittedly have not watched it in years. You're right that I never played. I grew up in the south, long before hockey was a thing here. When I lived in Knoxville, I regularly went to Cherokees games until the franchise moved to South Carolina, so you're wrong there, but it's been a while.
    I don't buy this at all. The MLS teams don't bring financial stability to Colorado Springs or Charleston, they just make travel (hopefully) easier by having enough teams to split into conferences. It wouldn't matter if Atlanta 2 was an independent or reserve team, though. I don't see how they bring credibility. Fans hate them and corporations probably don't particularly like them much, either, since nobody watches them.
    All of these teams have a connection to the community. I don't think most people follow the local high school or college if they have no connection to it.
     
  19. aetraxx7

    aetraxx7 Member+

    Jun 25, 2005
    Des Moines, IA
    Club:
    Des Moines Menace
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So, long story short there is no argument that I can make that will convince you that a minor league setup in American soccer is inevitable. Nor can I can convince you that it will eventually bring stability the way it has in minor league baseball, basketball, and hockey, despite decades of teams and leagues disappearing, just like those sports. Got it.
    Time will show who is right or wrong, but I'm finished with this conversation.
    I also refuse to believe that the NFL/football is the most similar to MLS/soccer in this country. They are almost diametrically opposed, aside from the ability to share facilities.
     
  20. RocketRobin

    RocketRobin Member

    Canada
    Feb 3, 2007
    Toronto
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    September 27, 2019 Toronto FC II vs South Georgia Tormenta FC played at BMO Training Grounds in Downsview in USL League One action.

    Final home game of the season for TFC II and they go out a winner.

    My game report at http://www.rocketrobinsoccerintoronto.com/reports19/19tfc259.htm

    I'll give myself a gold star for attending all 14 home games!
    Actually all my game reports are connected from
    http://www.rocketrobinsoccerintoronto.com/reports19/19tfc200.htm

    You've never seen them before unless you read the 'Canada' forum.
     
  21. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I love the post-apocalyptic feel out there.

    ajm171206mlscup008_tfc_training.jpg

    A photo I took at training before MLS Cup 2017
     
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  22. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  23. Macsen

    Macsen Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 5, 2007
    Orlando
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Austin Bold player Isaac Promise has died.

    I cannot find any news about this. Apparently he died last night at age 31. No details on how. Does anyone know what happened? I looked on the Statesman website, and it doesn't say anything.
     
  24. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
  25. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sad but not totally surprising. The baseball stadium thing is not viable long term unless the stadium is well designed for it (Pre-renovation Providence Park for example) never mind USL rules. I’m honestly more surprised that’s where Frank Yallop landed.
     
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