The Opioid Epidemic - A.K.A The Crisis of Addiction

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by superdave, Mar 30, 2017.

Tags:
  1. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Facebook's stock took a real hit when the announcement came out.


    Oh, wait, the stock price actually went up.
     
  2. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you are arguing I'm wrong?
     
  3. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Presumably because the market had expected a worse outcome for Facebook. Or, perhaps, it was just relieved that the event was over.
     
    Chicago76 and soccernutter repped this.
  4. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yup. Facebook got hit with a huge fine, but they still are expecting to make over $15 Billion. That is insane.

    You want to make companies hurt, fine them for something far greater. And also go after their business practices (which I understand Facebook got a pass on).
     
  5. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The market is weird like that. It's like when investors expect the fed to raise interest rates, the market goes down, but after they are raised, it often goes back up.
     
  6. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you would want the fine to end the company?

    Facebook is an outlier IMO. Their business model is so different from what Wall Street has seen, where J&J is a traditional company Wall Street understands.
     
  7. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, just enough to hurt.

    I disagree. I think they are likely the new norm, it just happened that they were being looked at harder and got caught easier.

    Sure, but Wall Street understands that huge fines are an incentive to not act irresponsibly. Such as lacking quality controls on sales and marketing of additive products. And that latter part is also how the company should be "fined."
     
    dapip repped this.
  8. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    #233 xtomx, Aug 29, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
    Stanger, I am not directing any of this at you.
    I am just using your posts as a starting point.
    The media have picked on many of these same themes.

    I do not intend any attack or offense to you.

    How many people did they kill in this latest venture?

    Oh, that's right:
    "The potential settlement, if agreed by attorneys general across the US, would be the largest to date in the complex litigation over addictive painkillers, which have caused the deaths of about 400,000 people since 1999."

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...-payouts-from-drug-makers-highly-questionable

    Sounds like a bargain for both J&J and the f*cking Sackler family to me.

    The Sacklers state that they are only go to put up $3 billion of the money, with the rest from their company Perdue Pharma, which (of course) will go bankrupt and all of the money will likely not be paid.

    Yet, they made several times that during their venture peddling these deadly substances.

    Pension funds should probably not invest in companies that are likely making products that kill their clients. Or, perhaps, they should.

    Yes, please shed a tear and feel sorry for the poor, poor companies. Oh my heart bleed for them!

    Yes, put the company over the lives of 400,000 who were killed over the past 20 years,
    The millions who were addicted but did not die,
    Multiply those deaths and illnesses by the families that were devastated,
    The billions of dollars in medicals bills that went unpaid (well, paid by us),
    The tens of millions of lost days of work, productivity and jobs.
    The thousands upon thousands of homes that were lost due to these addictions.

    Also, why would the company go out of business?
    Is that because shareholder would sell?
    Why is that be a problem, from an investment perspective?

    If the fine is so large that investors flee like the rats they, that is the "hand of the free market" at work.

    Adam Smith
    Milton Friedman
    Freidrich Hayek
    James Buchanan
    The Kochs
    Etc.
    should all be very, very pleased by the result.
    It shows The Market (the mighty, holy market) is WORKING.

    Wall Street should "understand" that making a product that kills tens of thousands of people a year is, probably, not a great product.

    Endlessly promoting a product that kills tens of thousands of people a year is, probably, not a great business strategy.

    Lying and covering up the data they knew regarding the dangers is, probably, not a great business strategy.

    Let me reemphasize:

    400,000 DEATHS
     
    soccernutter, sitruc and dapip repped this.
  9. song219

    song219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 5, 2004
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Vanuatu
    A single death is a tragedy
    400,000 deaths is a statistic
     
    luftmensch, soccernutter, sitruc and 3 others repped this.
  10. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Either you didn't understand my posts or I worded them in a confusing way because I don't disagree with any part of what you posted.

    The Pharma companies that were knowingly acting like a cartel should be ended and their executives jailed.
     
  11. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Yes, that was why I said I was not commenting directly to your post, but just used it as a "launching pad" for my rant.

    Thanks!
     
    sitruc, dapip and stanger repped this.
  12. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Not directly related with the opioid crisis, but about believing in the corporate church of free market:

     
  13. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That MLB pitcher who recently died was mixing alcohol and opioids.
     
    russ and Cascarino's Pizzeria repped this.
  14. Chicago76

    Chicago76 Member+

    Jun 9, 2002
    Not news, but this app the State of Indiana put together is pretty amazing. They've mapped Naloxone administration across the entire state for a few years with an incredible level of geographic detail.

    For example, I can select 2018 as my timeframe zoom into a WalMart just south of Indianapolis in Greenwood (a solidly middle class suburb) and see that narcan was administered 7 times that year in/around the WalMart parking lot. It's much more interesting to view if you know particular areas very well, but still interesting regardless.

    https://www.in.gov/recovery/1054.htm
     
  15. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Saw that. And his family said he was not that type of person, or something to that effect.

    IOW, "I raised a good boy, he just wouldn't do that kind of evil."
     
  16. sitruc

    sitruc Member+

    Jul 25, 2006
    Virginia
    The Washington Post has a good series that I'm surprised isn't already in this thread. It's called The Opioid Files. Part of it is using information that came out in lawsuits and FOIA to create databases of where pills are coming from, the manufacturer and where they are going. It charts every county and pharmacy.
     
  17. dna77054

    dna77054 Member+

    Jun 28, 2003
    houston
    Note that the following is not a attack on any poster here or their position regarding this product, but an attempt at understanding where we a society choose to the draw the lines, and how we view different products. This post that I am replying to is a well written and good jumping off point.

    I have no problem with going after Pharma for lying about the addictive nature of this particular product, but once its dangers are well known, as with alcohol and tobacco these days, I think we should treat it similarly.

    If the deaths and not the current/recent behavior of the company/industry are our biggest concerns, would we be okay with Big Alcohol being sued or regulated out of existence? According to the CDC, there are on average 88,000 alcohol related deaths per year in the US, so over that 20 year period mentioned above, there were about 1.76 MILLION DEATHS from alcohol, over 4 times as many as from addictive painkillers. All the additional collateral damage attributed(correctly imo) to the painkiller "epidemic" would also apply to alcohol. The US tried saving these lives and avoiding all this collateral damage once before via a constitutional amendment, it did not work out well. Alcohol does far more damage, and unlike the painkillers, which actually do help people suffering from severe pain, alcohol does not provide an actual necessary benefit to anybody.

    Alcohol advertising does seem to be a great business strategy, despite the number of deaths. Every major sporting event has an official alcohol. Are any of us not going to watch a game because of the alcohol sponsor? I doubt it.

    Wall Street does not seem to have a problem with alcohol, despite the number of deaths. How many of us recreationally use a product that kills 88,000 thousand Americans a year? Why do we support such a industry?

    If enough people were able to recreationally enjoy the mind altering effects of the aforementioned painkillers without becoming addicted, but still use in high enough numbers to keep the current body count (like alcohol) would this even be a controversy?

    I look forward your thoughts.
     
    Q*bert Jones III, dapip and Dr. Wankler repped this.
  18. stanger

    stanger BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 29, 2008
    Columbus
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think this is the crux of the comment.

    I don't know if opioids can be used recreationally and not become addictive.

    Alcohol, IMO, isn't anywhere near as addictive. I think your point would have been better made with tobacco.
     
    xtomx, soccernutter and Dr. Wankler repped this.
  19. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I volunteer through my church to work with recovering* addicts. Along these lines, I've sat in on some counseling classes at my wife's college, mostly focusing on addiction issues. It turns out, since researches have been keeping track (about 100 years now), the percentage of the population that develops an addiction to alcohol has remained about 15% for a century. (slightly higher in some populations, and lower in others. It seems to be mostly genetic, but poverty, tragically,mseems to increase the likelihood a bit). Basically, if alcoholism runs in your family, there's a good chance it will cause you problems, too. If it does not, there's a good chance you'll be able to keep your consumption under control.

    I was shocked to find out that, with heroin, it's not 100%. Somewhere in the mid 70s to low 80s, IIRC. IOW, high enough that it's foolish to trifle with it, IMO (both as a recreational user and as a physician prescribing it to patients.




    *we hope. It doesn't always work out.
     
    luftmensch, dapip, sitruc and 3 others repped this.
  20. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First, I don't think it is equal to compare alcohol or opioids, not just for the reason which stanger stated. Unlike alcohol, an opioid product is not easily made and the base products, even in comparison to something like meth, are not something which can be bought at to the local store. Additionally, opioids are more likely to addictive than alcohol because of the nature of how opioids work. On that, I agree with stanger that the comparison with tobacco is more apt.

    That is up for healthy debate. There are plenty of studies that alcohol is moderation can have a positive effect on the body. But like anything, over use can cause problems.

    It does far more damage because it is legal and widely accessible. It is for good reason that opioids are not OTC medications (this is the one category of drug I have concerns about being legal), but if they were, there is historical evidence that they would be a serious problem, far greater than alcohol.

    But beneath either of those issues, or any issue regarding addiction, we need to have addiction understood and accepted widely as being a medical issue, not a life choice.
     
    dapip and xtomx repped this.
  21. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nothing is 100%. I'm actually surprised it is that low. I would have though somewhere around 90%



    I have met people who describe it, in various terms, and either active recovery or passive recovery...as long as they are making the effort to get clean.
     
    Dr. Wankler repped this.
  22. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Also, opioids have a place in legit medicine. Alcohol, for the good it is, does not.

    I have had surgery a couple of times and have been prescribed opioids. There was virtually no chance of addiction in the way it was used.

    They work when used appropriately and for a very limited time.

    They do not work, never have worked and should never be prescribed for chronic pain. That is the problem. Perdue Pharma and the other bastards targeted the chronically ill knowing the likelihood of addiction and aiming those efforts at those most likely to be suspectible.
     
    russ, dapip and soccernutter repped this.
  23. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have had surgery, too, and have addiction running through the family. Granted this was a while back, so don't remember what I was given in the hospital, though I think it was Oxy. At home, I was given Codeine and being vary conscious of the addiction in the family, under used it. The funny thing is that I was still recovering from surgery and taking the occasional pill, and did so before taking the SAT. That's right, I was high during my SAT.
     
    dapip and xtomx repped this.
  24. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I once went to a defensive driving class* stoned. A quick brushing of the teeth and a spray of Febreeze and I was good to go.

    *Speeding ticket- the class kept it off my insurance. Cool.
     
    dapip repped this.
  25. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    New Jersey
    Hope you got a ride there.
     

Share This Page