MLS needs to start caring about the USMNT again

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by adam tash, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I believe that if the rumors are true, $2k/month or less, that the two players in question could have gotten a much better deal regardless of whether or not it is in Europe or MLS.
     
  2. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Unless you know the length of the deal offered by MLS and the European clubs, you can’t compare the offers even if the numbers are true.
     
  3. Nick79

    Nick79 Member

    May 4, 2015
    Club:
    Olympiakos Piraeus
    And it can be just what you said, be a lesser league and still prioritize it's own bottom line more than being the USMNT's farm team. Even if it's 30th in the world, if it can fill stadiums and sell jerseys, and pretend it's major league for the purpose of profit and stability, that's more important than the USMNT.
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  4. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    It's better than 30th and I'm not arguing that MLS should lose money - I'm not sure why being a developmental league isn't prioritizing its bottom-line. There's a lot of money to be made in developing and selling talented players, particularly with SC payments. Furthermore, college sports teams routinely fill their stadiums and no one argues that they're the best leagues in the world.
     
  5. Nick79

    Nick79 Member

    May 4, 2015
    Club:
    Olympiakos Piraeus
    That's exactly what I want, a local team, I root for DC United, it's easy, they are nearby, on TV regularly. I know a lot of people in the USA get obsessively devoted to Liverpool or Barca, BUT I CAN'T DO IT, JUST CAN'T, don't know why, it's just I can't attach myself to a team in an English city, no matter the quality! I'd rather root for DC and see opponents with homes like NY, LA, Chicago etc. I just don't care at all that MLS is nowhere near the best, I just want something local, where the games are in the evening and not 7am and the cities are ones I'm familiar with. I just want a USA LEAGUE and MLS gives me that.

    PS, that said, I'm also an Olympiacos (GREECE) fan, but that's different, I've lived there for a time, have family there, been to their games live, my late uncle was on their board back in the day, so I can get attached to that particular team.
     
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  6. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Here's a crazy suggestion: what if there was a rule that if a team doesn't play any youth player on its roster a certain number of MLS minutes (could be a sliding scale by age), another team could pick him off for a pre-set but reasonable dollar amount or a mid-level draft pick. however, the new team would have to play him an even greater amount or he'd go back to the original club. Something like baseball's Rule 5.

    Teams would be incentivized to play their youth or more likely to trade them to other teams where they could get more playing time.
     
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  7. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Wouldn't you root for the local team just as much if they were focused on building up from internal players that they develop? If much of the squad grew up in the DC area, I think that would make you root for them even more but perhaps not.
     
  8. Nick79

    Nick79 Member

    May 4, 2015
    Club:
    Olympiakos Piraeus
    I'd rather it just get the best players possible and focus on winning their own league, like as if their own league is the most important thing in the world, and not send away great players to develop them for someone else, and bring in a stud like Rooney for the entertainment value of seeing an all time great, to me I don't mind my MLS team just being an end in itself and not being a tool for other leagues or the USMNT. I didn't grow up in the DC area either, so the team being DC area people doesn't really matter to me.
     
  9. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Let me see if I understand correctly. You said the following:
    • I want a local team, [that's] easy,...are nearby, on TV regularly
    • I'd rather root for DC and see opponents with homes like NY, LA, Chicago etc.
    • I just don't care at all that MLS is nowhere near the best
    • I just want something local, where the games are in the evening and not 7am and the cities are ones I'm familiar with
    • I just want a USA LEAGUE and MLS gives me that
    All of that is certainly something that a team focused on development can provide in spades. But what you really want is for your local team to be better than all the other teams in the league and don't want to lose good players.

    Couple of questions:
    1. Good players will leave on their own accord if they can get an offer from a better club/league. Isn't that exactly what you don't want to happen?
    2. If all of MLS was focused on developing good players (the best of whom would naturally look to move onto better opportunities), why couldn't DCU win in that environment?
     
  10. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    You don't see a definite improvement in what MLS clubs invest in development? USL clubs, Academies? Those all cost money. How about the number of minutes given to youth products in MLS itself? Does it all boil down to "get them to Europe as fast as possible"?
     
  11. Nick79

    Nick79 Member

    May 4, 2015
    Club:
    Olympiakos Piraeus
    I want to keep good players to help my team win here in the MLS if possible, if the team develops a great superstar, and it's possible they can resign that player rather than let them leave for Europe, I'd like that too. Just like in NFL or MLB free agency, if another team offers way more and I don't or can't match, that's fine as well-but if it's affordable, I wouldn't mind keeping a good player to meet team goals, just that I am watching this team as if it is the be all/end all and the MLS is all that matters, that's how I want to see them approach it, not to be subordinate to other teams or leagues and be happy to lose talent to help USMNT achieve something, but to try to load up to win their own league.
     
  12. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You still haven't laid out any reason why MLS needs to prioritize the development of the USMNT in any way. What's in it for MLS?

    I think I speak for many MLS fans when I say that I don't have any interest in seeing my local MLS teams make any sacrifices to help the national team. When I pay for my season tickets at Audi Field, I'm looking for DC United to field the best team it can, and I don't really care where the players come from.
     
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  13. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Fair enough but the point is that MLS isn't the NFL or MLB, they are meaningfully below the best leagues in the world and good players usually want to play at the highest level they can.

    These players want to leave and the economics makes it even more compelling to do so - given the realities on the ground, why isn't it best for MLS to acknowledge where it sits in the global meritocracy and just be the best developmental league in the world.

    If the league was aligned in that regard, the best teams would be ones who develop the most talent and had good coaching.
     
  14. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    That's a perfectly rationale perspective but one that's at odds with what Garber has stated that the USMNT and MLS are inextricably linked and has gone on a tirade effectively demanding that USSF employees should not be allowed to discuss areas where the interests of the USMNT are not aligned with MLS.
     
  15. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Garber says a lot of things. I wouldn't over analyze his pronouncements. Anyway, he doesn't have any real power to make any of the MLS teams do anything when it comes to developing national team players. I doubt developing players for the USMNT ever comes up when the people who run MLS teams sit down to figure out their team's priorities.
     
  16. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    In part, it depends on what we mean by "developing" national team players. Certainly the academies help with that, even if that wasn't the primary reason for establishing them. In that case, both MLS's interests and the USMNT's interests are aligned.

    Where they are opposite is in two cases:

    1) Playing young Americans even if that reduces your chances of winning (if it didn't reduce your chances of winning, there would be no reason to incentivize it).

    2) Selling top Americans cheaply so that they can play overseas.

    I doubt we will see most teams do either, although I could see some teams doing (1)


    Edit: There are also longer run effects. MLS opens up more jobs for players and coaches which should improve coaching in general and also lead to more kids having professional soccer players as fathers.
     
  17. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I don't agree with 90% of the premise of this thread, but I do think MLS and USSF help each other, and should continue to help each other.

    As much as it is lambasted for conflict of interest, the SUM-USSF-MLS broadcasting rights being bundled is probably good for everyone and a benefit USSF provides to MLS (and vice versa, especially if you know the history). A strong USMNT drives interest in MLS regardless of where it's players play. And MLS is going to help develop the vast majority of USMNT players now and in the future.

    At the end of the day, MLS is one of the largest tools that USSF can use to forward soccer in this country, and there's going to be quid quo pro back and forth.

    That said, MLS already does a bunch of things dictated centrally that both help themselves and the USMNT.

    It's a league requirement to have an academy, and all but two are free (and those two aren't completely pay to play). There ARE limits on foreign players.

    Is this all for the USMNT benefit? No, but that's not MLS' purpose. MLS and USMNT have a bunch of common goals, and they work together on those. They work separately on other things.

    There's no reason DC United should lose millions of dollars so that a young player can move today. But perhaps they should have to fund an academy.

    What the USMNT should want MLS to do is happening right now, for whatever reason. Singificant numbers of teams are investing heavily in professional development, young player minutes are up, and teams are looking at sales of players as a revenue source.

    It just seems much ado about nothing.
     
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  18. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think that a big area is how much freedom of movement youth players have. MLS' teams may want to have exclusive rights to players for as long as possible while the USMNT wants to give them lots of options with very short lockups. I believe that FIFA has a rule that covers contract length but MLS has chosen not to adhere to that.

    It would also be helpful to the USMNT if MLS contracts primarily had reasonable buy-out clauses. To that end, if the rumors are correct, it's hard to get worked up against NYRB because of Long given that it's only a $5M buy-out.
     
  19. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    There's a very real business case for #1. The minutes Dallas gave to Paxton Pomykal last year -- when he was a minus -- are paying off this year and will pay off more when they sell him.

    #2 is not something USMNT fans should really want, unless they live in the delusional world where they think teams will keep throwing money away.

    If player development does not pay out in terms of on the pitch success or profitability (or both), teams will stop.

    If Dallas was forced to sell Paxton Pomykal for peanuts right now, they'd change strategy. There has to be an incentive to develop players.

    We saw the same ridiculousness when MLS said they were going to start honoring TC and Solidarity on international transfers. People who for years had screamed about the lack of this, or how the US doesn't do things like Europe, reacted negatively because it suddenly means that Europe may be less interested in some players because they won't be free.

    But you have to create a situation where it makes sense for these clubs to invest in development. Forcing them to do so doesn't work ... you need the carrot.
     
  20. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I agree, there needs to be sort of balance. Longer contracts should come with reasonable (for both sides) buyout clauses. I'd be in favor of more flexibility for where players can first sign, but I think that will come gradually.
     
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  21. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I think it's a reasonable argument although I am not yet convinced by it. What is Dallas going to do with the money they get from selling Pomykal? Dallas looks like it's getting near the point that the academy will pay for itself. But I don't think that's enough in and of itself. No one roots for an academy.

    In a broad, competitive sense, there's value in getting youngsters minutes over the season since the starting 11 aren't going to be able to play all games. And if a team is rebuilding, then it can make a lot of sense to play future prospects, but you don't want to be the team that is perpetually rebuilding.
     
  22. Nick79

    Nick79 Member

    May 4, 2015
    Club:
    Olympiakos Piraeus
    Here's the thing, if they have a better offer elsewhere, then go. If MLS can suck and still pay as much or more-EVEN WHILE SUCKING, then the player has a choice? Maybe a player just wants to live in the USA ? Not everyone thinks the same. If MLS salaries are competitive, then what exactly is wrong if a player wants to stay at home and make more money? There are Euro basketball players that can play in the NBA, they are good enough, but the money is as good or better in some of their countries so they never come. And there are lesser or older NBA players who go to Europe to get a big payday, like Rooney and Zlatan came here, or lesser baseball players in the USA go to Japan for a bigger payday. The only difference between soccer and those other sports is that USA is the lesser quality league.
     
  23. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    It's fine for the player and MLS but it's bad for the USMNT if a significant number of players intentionally choose to play at a lower level than they can. It would be the same if instead of playing in MLS, a lot of players played in college.

    The USMNT wants as many of its best players playing as high a level as possible so that they can acclimatize themselves with a fast/intense/skilled level of play. That's not what MLS/B2/Championship provide although again, MLS is far from sucking.
     
  24. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The thing is, unless they're going into a situation where the pay is better and they're guaranteed playing time, it doesn't really make sense to go overseas for a USMNT player.

    And there is the question of standard of living. MLS attracts a lot of quality players from the Americas because of the high standard of living, generally high quality of MLS facilities, the fact that we don't have any of the crazy fan violence which is routine in many parts of the world, and the fact that MLS paychecks don't bounce.

    I mean, sure, if Chelsea or Barcelona are interested in you, most players would go for it. But, if the team looking at you is some mid-table Portugese team or some bottom-table Bundesliga team, why disrupt your life when you can make a good living playing quality soccer in Seattle or DC?
     
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  25. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Thankfully for the USMNT, most professional soccer players want to play with and against the best. There’s a large gap in level of play between MLS and the major leagues and players want to test themselves. A small amount of players will decide to stay in a small pond even if they have greater ability but few do that (thankfully).
     

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