MLS needs to start caring about the USMNT again

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by adam tash, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A surprisingly high number of DPs don't pan out. Fully one-third of the DPs in MLS history have ended up warming the bench for a significant portion of their time in the league. A bunch of them have spent 2 years or more in MLS without ever being regular starters at any time -- take, for example, Gonzalo Veron with NYRB, spending three years in MLS sitting on the bench behind the likes of Mike Grella and Alex Muyl. The latest departure: Lucas Melano, who never managed to secure a regular place in the Portland lineup.

    So I don't buy the idea that any DP or TAM player always plays over a young American. There are probably only 15-20 DPs league-wide, definitely fewer than one per team, who are beyond the ability of any other player to displace. That still leaves multiple attacking positions on each team that young Americans have a real opportunity to take over. Also, some of this elite group of DPs can be used in multiple positions, which means other players aren't necessarily competing directly with them.
     
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  2. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #277 adam tash, Jul 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019


    Another way that MLS can help USMNT is by allowing transfers to happen.

    in recent seasons...almost every rumor of a USA player having interest from a Euro club leads to nothing.

    Now, some of these rumors are perhaps not legit...but surely many of them are. Yet, nothing seems to come of 95+% of them.

    why?

    MLS is asking way more $ than euro clubs expect given the low salaries MLS pays these players.

    MLS and Europe are engaged in a long-term pissing contest and USMNT players are suffering becauase of it!

    It's hypocritical IMO that MLS would demand reltively high transfer fees for their domestic players but also pay them below market value globally...MUCH lower than top leagues do.

    Does anyone honestly think that if Aaron Long played this upcoming season in the EPL that it wouldn't potentially help the USMNT??

    Furthermore, by allowing the Aaron Long's of the world to move on....it opens up a spot for the next Aaron Long to play in MLS....the more domestics transfer to Europe the more domestics get the chance to pay in MLS....all while making MLS money!!!

    does anyone think that if NYRB sold Aaron Long that it would hurt NYRB's bottomline this season? (I think it would help it)

    Don Garber said he wants MLS to become a selling league....well I'm not seeing it. I don't care if clubs want to keep their players...it's a single-entity model....let the players go when they get the chance of a lifetime.

    the "pipeline" is clogged...open it up!
     
  3. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I find any discussion of transfers silly without actual numbers and without it giving time for negotiations to play out.

    USMNT fans always want any lower level team to basically accept any offer for a player because that might benefit the USMNT, but you know, the clubs need to watch out for themselves as well.

    The same happens with non-USMNT fans -- the freakout amongs MLS fans that Atlanta was asking too much for Almiron was pretty insane ... until they basically got close to $15M more than the initial offer.

    Long apparently has a $5M buyout clause. So if West Ham or another team wants him enough, there's nothing MLS can do. Apparently the first offer was a shade under $3M.

    Adams and Steffen have been sold recently. The Adams transfer is always going to be a bit fuzzy, but MLS allowed a below market transfer there. Chris Richards was also sold. Walker Zimmerman was sold to Israel, I think, and came back.

    Who else recently has been held back? My mind goes to Kellyn Acosta as the poster child for someone who could have moved but stagnated. But that was a couple of years ago.

    USMNT fans are always going to hate MLS for this. In part, because the expectation is to "always sell, immediately."

    But also in part because due to the economics of MLS, it really doesn't make sense to sell anyone for $1M or $2M unless they are insisting on the transfer. NYRB can't get someone guaranteed to be as good as Aaron Long with $3M -- even if they kept it all (which they don't).

    That's far too low a number to get a transfer on the international market with any certainty. TAM signings are remarkably inconsistent so far in MLS.

    So if the price gets up to $5M, it begins to make sense, especially if you have a backup that can step up.

    But low single digit million transfers are never going to happen with the exception of Chris Richard situations. Or if Aaron Long hadn't signed his contract and basically forced his way out.
     
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  4. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    you-re so biased its hilarious.

    as if MLS doesn't have a sign for 4-5 years policy ENTRAPPING players in MLS or else.

    you must have missed the cyle larin, bill hamid fabian castillo, nagbe, camilo luciano acosta etc situations....

    a bundesliga scout flew in from germany and DC pettily benched hamid for that game....


    almost every player on the usmnt who has been called up in the past several years has had at least a rumor of euro interest but none ever transfer out of the league. by design. by MLS' design.

    its not silly to talk about these things when you look at the last 5-10 years and the very limited # of total transfers......

    MLS has basically taken a "force your way out or you arent leaving" stance towards domestic players....

    to try to paint it otherwise is either blatant ignorance or willful deception.
     
  5. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Because I think MLS should be able to make decisions on selling players?

    Two of those guys are American. The rest are not. Are we talking about Americans? And IIRC, Nagbe was the one that turned down Scotland, at least this last time around. He wanted a higher salary and got it.

    (And for the record, DC should have sold Acosta if the numbers were true ... if the numbers quoted were true. I do find it hard to believe PSG had real interest in Lucho Acosta, though).

    I honestly don't remember that. When was that? I do remember his going to Denmark and not being able to secure a starting spot.

    Who? Link to the rumors? How much was offered? Just looking at the Gold Cup roster ...

    Zimmermand and Steffen were sold. Long is an undetermined. Cannon is an undetermined.

    Is there even a semi-serious Lima rumor? Lovitz? Arriola was in Liga MX, came back. Johnathon Lewis? Morris is well-documented at not wanting to leave. Do we think there are serious offer for Zardes?

    Do you think MLS should sell no matter the dollar amount offered?

    I'm not really interested in the last 5-10 years, because I'm pretty sure there's been a mentality change that you refuse to acknowledge.

    But even so, there are some structural issues that do mean that MLS is going to require to get paid to sell anyone -- not just American players.

    1. As I said in my oh-so-biased post ... The economics of selling a quality player for $1M or $2M stink in MLS. That's enough money for these owners to downgrade their team, and that money isn't enough to guarantee a replacement given the bust rate of those level of signings in MLS.

    2. The fact that MLS owners only get a % of the transfer fee does restrict some selling. There's a reason for it -- MLS pays the base salary, etc. -- but that could change. Thing is -- this actually generally hurt non-Americans and Canadians more, as they are less likely to be homegrown (100% of the fee is kept) and less likely to be veterans (team gets a larger %).

    Here's what I'm trying to paint. You can decided whether its blatant ignorance or willful deception.

    1. Teams deserve to get value for their players.

    2. MLS does have certain economic dynamics that make players more valuable to them than some other leagues.

    3. MLS does not have some special vendetta out for American players who want to leave.

    4. USMNT fans always want MLS to sell no matter what, even if it means the long term incentive for having players to sell is lowered.

    5. Fans of all kinds freak out when an initial offer isn't accepted and this is dumb, as it's a negotiation.
     
  6. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Maybe because they were...rumors?

    It is difficult to come to any kind or reasonable conclusion (one way or another) when you don't know the facts.
     
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  7. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    When there's a real interest in a player, money amounts are mentioned by reputable media, and the club supposedly interested doesn't rush to say it's not true.
     
  8. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    bottomline....the transfers are not happening across the board.

    but whenever players run out their contracts...they jump onto a team in europe without much hassle.

    Khiry Shelton is in the Bundesliga.

    If he had re-upped with MLS he woulda been an MLS lifer with a much lower cieling on his career path than currently.

    Can we just agree that MLS has a contract history that is not helping the USMNT???????

    I mean...it is pretty obvious to me that MLS' stance toward domestics is indeed retarding their career trajectories to at least some degree.

    Most MLS apologists would say it is not making any meaningful difference. the ones who are good enough get bought...the ones who aren't, don't.

    I disagree.

    I think there are ways MLS could adjust how it arranges salaries, contracts and transfers with its players...and that MLS' strategy is to dominate domestic players as much as it can...adn that stance could be adjusted to the benefit of both parties.

    MLS could take a softer line on extensions and willingness to negtotiate with foreign teams on transfers...while having no effect on the on-feild product and een improving the bottom line of the league.

    Instead, MLS prefers to take a hardline approach with player contracts and letting its players leave the league...and SOMEHOW people want to argue with me that that has ZERO effect on the domestic player pool and the USMNT....and that there is no wiggle room on how MLS operates i.e. transfers. UN-REAL.
     
  9. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    decisions? no. they have a consistent strategy on transfer policy that is remarkably similar across all players.....lowball on salary, high-ball on transfer fee demands.

    the transfer appraoch of MLS is similiar across all MLS players but foreigners actually have more leverage because they generally have more options than domestics....they can always go to their home country and usually have better access to european leagues than americans. if anything, MLS transfer policy helps foreigners more than americans because americans can't burn bridges in their own country like foreigners can with MLS. domestics are much more docile in terms of forcing their way out of MLS...and it hurt the USMNT.

    Nagbe wanted to go to Celtic. he flew over and watched a champions league game and gave quotes in the press how much he liked it ....but MLS blocked the move.
    Sure....PSG flew Acosta over for croissants and marmelade ...smh

    the offer was fair. the player wanted the move. dc blocked it.
    hamid wanted europe. dc wanted him to stay. they tried to manipulate the sitaution...hamid ended up in denmark on a FREE TRANSFER because MLS wouldn't let him go otherwise! Hamid's only way out was playing out his deal and going on a free...they play chicken with the players and coerce them into staying or getting benched/less money etc......it is detrimental to players careers. how are you even arguing this???????????????????

    Zimmerman as never sold despite a lot of rumored interest. there are so few examples you are using a player who wasn't even transferred!

    last 5-10 years a lot of interest has been rumored on american players and they RARELY transfer out of MLS....much less than earlier iterations of MLS.

    i'm not only talking this gold cup roster...there are many other players this applies to. kellyn acosta had serious interest....will he ever leave now?

    when lee ngyuen was in the MVP running there were suitors etc.....

    we aren't privy to what happens behind closed doors.....but there has been a pattern of not leaving MLS by americans.period. it doesn't help the USMNT at all.

    it started with dempsey, altidore, bradley coming back to MLS...and the USMNT has been in the crapper ever since.

    do you dispute this? it is obvious.
    NO!

    But i find it hypocritical that MLS underpays its domestic players...and overvalues them on transfer demands and then uses that as reason to not sell.

    the reason they do not want to sell is because they are getting these player at below market valuations...they cannot find equal or better value players for the same price on the world market because they are underpaying domestics.

    Of course they don't want to sell!!

    but that's no excuse.

    of course MLS should be allowed to negotiate and have minimum demands....i do not think they should just sell every time there is any offer. but i think there have been many cases when reasonable offers have been made especially when you factor in how much the players in question were actually being paid by MLS! - when MLS still refused to sell.
    well the last 5-10 years is all I'm talking about.

    there has been a bit of a change...but so far little fruit has been borne and it is all talk at this point despite some good signs.

    1. sure...100% agree.
    2. the "certain economic dynamics" are MLS' MAKING!!!! that's my point!

    if you mean that some MLS players are more valuable to MLS than they are to other leagues...yeah...so ...they should pay them accordingly then....and allow them to prosper when and if they have a chance to advance themselves.
    3. I'm not so sure.....not being prviy to behind the scenes I cannot say for sure either way...but the pattern across the last 5-10 years is pretty clear.
    4. agreed and this is a fair point. i just think that the more players are sold the more new players get chances and the more the pipeline will keep flowing....I don't say sell no matter what.....but sell when it makes sense for player and club....which I have a hard time thinking is what really happens.
    5. this isn't about 1 situation...it is about a pattern and paternalistic stance by MLS clubs to its players....the club is all that matters and the players' career is not a concern....but if clubs could have more success stories it will help the leauge attract more almirons, adams', barcos, etc.......
     
  10. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    #285 Mahtzo1, Jul 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
    I don't think there is much disagreement that this is true. Sure there are transfers and it SEEMS like the frequency of transfers is picking up but its a bit early to say how much it has/is changing.

    The issue isn't the bottom line...the issue is determining the cause of the bottom line. There were some very public and obvious issues in the past (Dempsey trying to move to Europe stands out in my mind). In the time in between, it's been a bit more unclear. I don't know the story, but Acosta seems to be one against MLS several years ago. (2-4yrs?) Some players have had interest and then resigned in MLS (Besler comes to mind)....is that one you are counting? You mention Shelton, do you think he had any interest from a club that was willing to pay a transfer fee? If so, what do you base that on?

    The problem with rumors is that they are...rumors. We don't know if they are true in any way. They could be true in that a team is interested/monitoring a player but doesn't put an offer, the team could put in a lowball offer, it could be an agent starting a rumor to help with negotiations or it could be completely baseless speculation....or it could be true and the team really is interested in the player and presents a reasonable offer.

    You do make it sound pretty easy.

    I would suggest that if you are looking for an indication of MLS holding players captive, look at the number of players leaving on free transfers but focus on the players that are actually playing a real role in the squad or seem to have a future (possibly a young up and coming player). For me, Shelton doesn't fit that mold. To my knowledge, he never established himself as lock starter for either NYFC or SKC. That would be fine if he were younger but at his age he should have a larger role in MLS to be gaining transfer interest from Europe.


    One issue with transfers that I think may not get as much attention as it deserves is how our season lines up with Europe's. In Europe, if I'm not mistaken, the busiest transfer season is the summer when teams are preparing for their next season. In the winter, fewer teams are buying and selling. For MLS, it is the opposite. Teams want to sell during the winter season when the demand is lowest.

    While a lot is talked about with respect to salaries, it takes two sides to sign a contract and I think that an evolution in contracts will become apparent within a year or two when you see more players trigger a buyout clause or when the contract is written to give a player the ability to leave if the right offer comes. Long just recently signed a new contract offer and is getting attention for the apparent interest/offer. I read in another post that he has a $5M buyout clause but the EPL team has only offered $3M. What do YOU think RBNY should do? Is $5M too much for a PL team to pay? Can RBNY get an equivalent player for that much or less? Remember, not only is it below the buyout clause, but he is a very important member of that team and it is in the middle of the season. Would they take that offer in December? don't know (I tend toward no) but it would probably be more likely.

    I think MLS is in a period of transition. The two areas of change that should interest USMNT fans are player development and transfers. I think both are changing quickly.
     
  11. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    West Ham is not some poor middling club. They play in the richest league in the world and £4m is chump change. Less than £3m offer is insulting. Quite frankly a $5m release clause is quite reasonable for Long and NYRB. Had they started at $4m+ and negotiated to somewhere around $4.5m then that would be a good compromise for both parties and Long.

    As it stands NYRB are hardly the bad guys here. Had they asked for $8m or above then yes everyone would be rightfully slagging RB. Most posters here want Americans sold abroad but I think we can all agree that fees should match performance and £3m for an international player coming off a good Gold Cup performance isn't sufficient.
     
  12. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here’s the thing tho that GC he only faced 1 team with talent like he will see regularly in the EPL. 5 mill is not much but I get why they’d still have reservations. He’s also not young and someone they expect to develop much more over the next few years their buying what they see. I’ve also seen reports that they were offered and had interest which is a big difference. Teams are offered players all the time. The other linked teams one has a new American owner and the other is kind of a surprise. Wouldn’t shocked if their using west ham or one of these other clubs as leverage.
     
  13. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #288 adam tash, Jul 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
    the "nitty gritty" is not what is salient.

    what relevant is merely what is happening with the entire pool of domestic MLS players....and MLS' role in it.

    Does MLS care at all if a player like Kellyn Acosta for example misses his window to leave MLS and becomes a lifer in the league? doesn't seem like it. Does MLS care if the Kellyn Acosta's of the world never develop into contributors with the USMNT? doesn't seem like it. Is that having a positive neutral or negative impact on the USMNT? my guess is negative.

    the details you cite are exhaustive but miss the big-picture....why must MLS require that certain players that it doesn't seem to value very highly MUST have a club willing to pay a transfer in order to leave? Why must MLS' seeming policy of "force your way or never leave" be excused as "the way things are"? if Hamid or Lima or Shelton have teams in Germany ready to sign them...but not willing to pay an exorbitant transfer fee....if MLS lets them go chase their dreams? MLS lets the euro guys who have "situations" out of their contracts all the time!

    I'm not saying MLS should just sell every time there is any interest from abroad....but I find it dubious given the things that have leaked and the low totla # of recent transfers that have happened....that MLS is indeed acting in good faith when it comes to these negotiations or that it even factors in the career prospects of the players involved at all when negotiating the fates of the players involved. If I'm a foreign club and want to bring over an MLS player making 500k....why is a few million not enough??

    I think if euro clubs are looking at the salaries MLS is paying to the players involved and the transfer demands that MLS is making about these players and saying that MLS is too greedy...then I think they likely have a good point!

    Why does no one ever want to acknowledge that there is a disconnect between how MLS values players internally and how they value them to outside bidders??

    I agree that West Ham should meet the buyout clause and if that is indeed the snag...then it is fine for RBNY to holdout.....but if that was the case why did I read an article that said RBNY is not selling aaron long. period.?

    And I have perhaps overstated how easy it is for players to play out their MLS deals and latch on outside of MLS.....

    and you bring up a good point that the not overlapping calendars of MLs and Europe works against MLS players heavily......

    but to reiterate...what is MLS actually doing to help players out i.e. getting to bigger clubs, having better careers, etc?

    I'm not seeing anything.....what I've seen from the league going back to shalrie joseph and on and on....is MLS putting up as many roadbloacks as they can for players that want to leave MLS.

    I think that as time has gone on...despite MLS recently seeming to shift gears a bit....it is less likely for an american to transfer to europe than it was in days gone by....despite MLS improving.....it doesn't really add up...UNLESS you realize that the pool of domestic players _which MLS must use as the base of their player pool_ is FINITE...much moreso than the pool of foreign players.

    the # of american players that MLS can draw from is much more limited and therefore the players who qualify as domestic are more valuable to the league than any other group...they are more irreplaceable than foreigners......therefore teams are mush less likely to let them leave when they want to....and that there is an incentive to supress movement of the domestic pool away from MLS as a rule...and I beleive that is exactly what they are doing and have been doing.....

    it doesn't matter to me whether this is "right" or "wrong"...the reasons do not matter. my point is merely that this cannot be anything other than a negative for the USMNT. and, though unconfirmed, it doesn't seem MLS cares at all about this dynamic....and how it impacts the national team of the country in which it operates and profits from.
     
  14. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    #289 Mahtzo1, Jul 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
    I wonder how hard Acosta tried to get out of MLS. He did resign, correct? He could have waited and gone to Europe on a free. (Unless I'm mistaken...which happens a lot).

    That being said, I think that Dallas should have sold Acosta when he was hot. Selling later may have been more difficult because he plateaued but if Shelton can latch on to a B2 team (now B1), Acosta should be able to do it as well if he had decided to wait out his contract. Dempsey went to Europe after NE refused to let him go. My point isn't that FCD (or NE) are without fault but if a player truly wants to go, he can go. MLS isn't making Acosta a lifer, Acosta is agreeing to be a lifer.

    I also believe that the teams and league are new to this and will adjust. Right now they are learning. They will not adjust out of altruistic motives but because they don't want to lose money. Cash is the strongest motivator. It's a game where wins/losses come on a spectrum: on one end, a player leaves on a free when the team could have gotten value for their investment (a total loss if he never plays for the team ala McKennie), on the other end of the spectrum the team gets top dollar for the player. In between is the more subjective area of win/loss where a team has to decide how much less than top dollar do they accept if they want to avoid giving him away on a free.

    Edit: to answer the bolded question...Yes, I think that MLS (specifically FCD) cares that Acosta missed the window because it affects their bottom line. FCD didn't maximize their investment with Acosta. (IMO).
     
  15. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    That is not really how business works...anywhere...is it? MLS' primary goal is to maximize profits. MLS has no problem helping players as long as it doesn't have a negative effect on their bottom lime but make no mistake....MLS is in it for the profit. Expecting them to minimize their product and or profits is naive.

    That is not to say that players can't or won't be sold in increasing numbers. Sales will increase as supply and or demand increases. Supply will increase as more quality players come out of the academies with a desire to play in Europe (MLS will be happy if a top academy player wants to stay in MLS ala Morris). Demand for MLS players will increase as MLS products find success in Europe. The success (or failure) of all recent and future MLS players transferred will have an effect on this: Davies, Adams, Almiron etc. Adams being able to jump right into the B1 and instantly be one of RBL's top players has to catch some European eyes that are now trying to decide how much a guy like Pomykal, Araujo, Cannon etc should be worth.

    Losing a top player on a free has a negative effect on their bottom line. losing a player like Shelton who was playing in USL was probably relatively neutral. Losing EPB was a negative. Selling Richards to Bayern has to be considered a positive considering the alternative would likely be nothing.

    They will do that by maximizing the on-field product, and their "brand", both in the US and internationally. Actively trying to help players out of the league is not one of their goals but a goal of some players. MLS has to recognize this fact and attempt to maximize profit from those players that want out.
     
  16. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #291 adam tash, Jul 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
    in theory, your macro level explanation should be true.

    but when you dig into the cases of each player....I'm not really on-board with your thesis that profit drives every move that MLS makes. they are certainly after money but not necessarily getting it at the rate that they could be at all times. i think a lot of these transfer sagas revolve around salary suppression and maintaining the upperhand over player rights as a general rule.

    At some point you have to ask is it worth it to the league to keep a glass cieling over its players? sure they benefit in some ways...but surely you can see they lose in some others by doing so.

    do you think Pity signs with MLS if Almiron doesnt go to the EPL? I don't think those types of players sign with the league without a prior track record of MLSers moving on to bigger leagues, even the biggest.

    there are a lot of interwoven factors in terms of what truly creates profits some short-term some long-term and some very long-term. MLS certainly focuses very well on the short term. but i think they have a poor track record of decision making i.e. profits especially in the longer-term. I think in general they are "pennywise but pound foolish"....they have taken an extremely conservative slow growth model but that isn't the only path they could've taken.....

    if MLS sells aaron long for 3m that;s HUGE PROFIT for them! they took an also ran 26 year old USL reject and turned him into millions.....nothing negative about that! if they sell him RBNY will still make the exact same profits that they would otherwise....if they were worried about 1 player they never wouldve sold tyler adams ...he was much more influential to the RBNY success than Long is. but they sold him and everything was fine.....

    Shelton wasn't a USL player...he was playing a big role for some of the top MLS teams......

    but to your overall point......helping players out...will help MLS out.(and the USMNT out too)

    some players have tight windows to make the right moves....perhaps no team ever comes in for Long again. maybe this EPL interest will be his only shot....it has happened a lot in MLS recently where a player gets a sniff and doesn;'t go and that is all she wrote on that front. (its not all MLS' fault...a lot of factors come into play...sometimes the player doesnt want go...sometimes the other club backs out or flakes, etc)

    I think we agree that if RBNY never ends up getting anything for Long and he indeed wouldve wanted to go...then that would be a waste for the player and the league.

    what it comes down to me is leverage.

    MLS wants to leverage their power over players to keep them under league control. they coerce players into accepting terms that otherwise wouldnt.

    take acosta....okay..we will pay you more but only if you sign an extension. its a game of chicken they play with players that ends up with the players having to weigh higher current wages with lower career prospects...and you can say "that's how business works" but I would say that there are indeed different ways a business can interact with its labor force....some more exploitative than others...and I would argue that the more exploitative MLS is towards domestics (i.e. leveraging them into being stuck in MLS).....is like shooting one's nose to spite one's face.....(sure you can see the appraoch that across hundreds of players MLS must be Machiavellian in how they negotiate contracts to maximize profits) but the more success stories MLS gets i.e. transfers...the more interest there will be from abroad (and from youth soccer players!) and the more MLS can make off of the transfer market.....so gumming up the works and blocking moves....doesn't only have a positive effect on MLS' bottomline, it often has a cumulatively negative one.....(not to mention that when players realize that their euor window is basically closed....have you noticed how their level of play seems to nosedive mysteriously?)...its not like refusing to sell means MLS will get to keep the player at the same level of play that generated the interest in the first place.....

    the ramifications of business moves are often unknown.

    perhaps MLS sells a certain player and he makes it big in the EPL, say....and that player inspired the next Messi level player who had played with the sold player in the RBNY academy to dedicate himself to soccer because he could see a role model that had done it before him...OR perhaps RBNY decided not to sell that player and save (according to them) a few million bucks...and the player who wouldve become the next Messi...didn't have a local role model to inspire him to greatness and didn't dedicate himself to the sport.....and never became the next superstar that transformed the sport in the USA....

    they say a butterfly flapping tis wings can cause a hurricane on the other side of the globe....

    overall, I think if MLS treats players like commodities and not humans worth nurturing they will suffer in the long run...but keep making their pennies over the short term.

    which is fine and dandy for the MLS "suits" but will never move the needle in the long run for the league or for the USMNT.
     
  17. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #292 adam tash, Jul 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
    we agree that MLS screwed the pooch on the acosta situation...

    I personally feel like they made some kind of ultimatum to him...the colorado move was basically extend and stay in MLS and you get a higher salary here...but you will likely be stuck here and he took it.

    I feel like you undersell how cutthroat MLS is about these moves and how aggressive they are with the players. there's definitely some armtwisting behind the scenes that we arent privy to...and players are told to stfu about it or else....a la gio dos santos coming out recently about how the league gave him an extension but wanted him to say certain things to the press about it. like wtf.....(they don't care much about the 6m a year but do care a lot about what he says to the press about it?)

    the difference between jumping to a B2 team or a first div squad is huge....it is a huge difference...and it is enough to sway the upperhand to MLS' favor in these contract negotiations.

    these windows to jump to an actual good team open and close swiftly.....MLS needs to adjust and just let these moves happen more often (provided the player wants it)...they are too rigid and draconian about these things.
     
  18. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    I know everyone brings up Acosta but there's no proof from anyone that FCD ever received an actual offer for him. I have no doubt there was tons of interest but if no one made an official offer before he got injured and fell out of form then FCD didn't blow anything, hold him back or the like. In fact they were the ones who were held back by Acosta and his complete drop off.

    So let's not say MLS screwed up here.
     
  19. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #294 adam tash, Jul 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
    I'm not sure that they have.

    he is just symbolic of the stance MLS takes to its players. Ultiamtely he was a player who coudlve moved to bigger club and didnt and MLS' policies clearly had a lot to do with it. Acosta was very clear that he wanted to be in europe and he isn't. period.

    20+ years of MLS' dealings on the transfer market doesn't rest on what they did with acosta...their record is clear.
     
  20. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So, this thread can be summarized as “MLS should make sacrifices for the good of the USMNT.”

    Not sure that’s a message MLS ownership is going to be receptive to.
     
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  21. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Its not even remotely the mission statement of MLS. Nor is it the mission statement of any major European league. Developing domestic talent is a happy byproduct of their primary mission statements as clubs: To win games/trophies and to be success businesses. Developing domestic talent is a productive avenue towards achieving those goals.

    Exactly correct. We never heard that any legitimate transfer offers from Europe were made for Kellyn Acosta at FCD. We heard rumors of "interest," but I'm sure MLS general managers field those types of calls all the time. The general manager of FCD said in an interview recently that he'd recently fielded calls about Cannon, Pomykal, Servania, and Cerrillo. This after they'd already sold US U20 Chris Richards this spring, and lost US U20 Chris Cappis to Europe (they tried to sign him, but he was deemed ineligible as a homegrown).

    They had a plan with Kellyn Acosta. He had a great summer of 2017, and I believe their plan was to sell him in the subsequent 2018 winter window. But after he returned from the Gold Cup in 2017 he got hurt, his form tanked, and he seemed to lose motivation. His value plummeted.

    I'm always reminded that Walker Zimmerman went to Europe to trial with clubs after his first FCD deal expired. He couldn't get an offer, even in Scandinavia. So he came back to MLS with his tail between his legs to sign another FCD contract. They traded him a year later to LAFC for big money. The lesson is..................most of these MLS players aren't as coveted as we think they are.

    The 18 year old raw materials are coveted. Those are the kids that clubs want so that they can be molded, shaped, etc. [Recent examples include Richards, Mendez, Ledesma, Llanez, Gloster, etc.]
     
  22. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    In countries with an established soccer culture it's often club over country. That's not the case in the US, so it's sort of expected for the local league to have some will to help the NT by promoting USA-eligible players. It's normal for a country in our stage of soccer development.
     
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  23. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think some of this is existential in how MLS views itself.

    Will it acknowledge the reality that as a minor league, its primary role is developmental and that the better it gets at developing and transferring players, the better it becomes?

    Or does it continue the goal of being a destination league that’s (thinking of) vying for elite talent?

    If it’s the former, that aligns very closely to what is best for the USMNT but the latter isn’t as well aligned.

    I’ll reiterate the point that MLS should do what’s right for itself but the USSF has to recognize that there will be times when their interests are opposed and be willing to act as hard-nosed as MLS does or the result will be decidedly one-sides (like we’ve seen).
     
    bigredfutbol and adam tash repped this.
  24. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Wasn’t Acosta before T/SC? That’s a pretty big change and seems to show that MLS is adjusting to the reality that good youth players have competitive opportunities and no longer are captive to the college vs MLS paradigm.
     
    jaykoz3 repped this.
  25. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Our situation is more similar to those in South Korea, Japan and Australia: leagues in country where the players can get well-paid thanks to a good economy, but where soccer has recent roots.

    The comparison to them is much better than comparing ourselves to Mexico or Germany or England.

    The basic problem is that if we produce good players, at some point rather soon the pay-scale is going to tip so that staying here is a solid option. Which means they may not be good for long, lacking the top notch competition.

    It's a conundrum. At best, countries like JPN, ATL, ROK & USA can aspire to have a Golden Generation once in a while, but otherwise, they're too wealthy to become regular feeder leagues & too late to the game to build a true top, prestigious league.

    China is trying a different approach, throwing money around like a drunk billionaire at a strip club (like the Arab countries), but also trying to plan for the future with foreign coaches with good rep having to take as their apprentices Chinese guys.
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.

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