Post-match: USA vs Mexico Gold Cup final 7/7/19

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by tomásbernal, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. WhoFarted?

    WhoFarted? New Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 8, 2019
    I realize there are problems with who was selected to start, player pool selection, etc. However, for better or worse, we were alive in the first half. The man-handling that Mex gave us in the second half (both literally and figuratively) gives rise to the two major concerns I have.

    1) Tactical: I am concerned that GB is so rigid in his system that he can't modify things when a tactical change is made, such as moving Pizarro to our left flank. If this was ringing alarm bells in my head within 3 minutes of the first half starting (3 beers in), why so slow to adjust?

    2) Strategic: Most of our players do not have the ball control/dribbling skills to effectively beat a high press. Other teams are realizing this: Chile, Venezuela, Curacao, Jamaica for a while after the rain delay, and now Mexico. Although clever passing can sometimes allow you to escape, to consistently beat it you have to have midfielders and left/right backs who have angelic first touch and enough dribbling ability to take someone on 1 v 1 and get by them to break the press. CP has this ability, and showed it on a recurrent basis, but he was not always in a position to receive the pass from the back line. McKenzie has shown brief flashes of this, but far too few (maybe he will grow this skill?). Bradley and Ream? Ha ha ha! (Although I can excuse Ream because he's really a CB and they are not typically expected to do thia) T Adams maybe has this? Cannon also showed this a couple of times, but needs to grow. (Pomykal, Dest, and Gloster showed it in U-20 WC). Anyway, without enough of these kinds of players vs Mexico, our def/mids panicked and made forced/crappy passes, lost the ball due to poor first touch, etc. Then we resorted to "Long Ball", which is allegedly a way to work past the high press. News flash: it doesn't work when the other team is expecting you to do this. We ended up giving the ball right back to them. I am not an expert, but I believe that if you don't have enough players with this level of skill, then you need to adjust your formation to load the midfield with a bunch of dudes. Given that this has happened to us in multiple games leading up to this one (and is inherently obvious anyway), GB should have had a plan waiting in the wings that could be quickly implemented once the press became evident. He was really slow to respond to this, if he even responded at all (I'm still not sure? Maybe "bunkering" and subbing on Roldan was his response?).

    I am concerned about this for the future. Obviously we can't improve our ball control over night, but shouldn't we have a plan/strategy in the meantime to compensate for this when other teams try to take advantage of it? The high press is so common now days...
     
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  2. #1 Feilhaber and Adu

    Aug 1, 2007
    Year after Year.

    And guess who runs CONCACAF marketing...…..SUM. And guess who is the CEO of SUM? Don Garber. This is too easy.

    Man are we the weakest/ most scared fan base in the world?

    Germany dropped Bayern Munich Boateng at 29!!!!!
     
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  3. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i mean, hed also be the answer to "most peruvian born german-american?". that "only question" thing was hyperbole on my part.

    as to your question theres no way to know. what we do know is mckennie was just as shut down by the mexican midfield as bradley was- does that mean morales is better than mckennie now, too?

    cause see, youre so caught up in proving a point youre just saying random things. he may well be better than bradley (gah, its hard to imagine him not being) at this point, but that doesnt have anything to do with what matters- which is is he better than who we play?

    against.

    so lets slide bradley to the side for a minute since no one/certainly not me is arguing for bradley over anyone (except our freaking manager...). if mckennie can be essentially "shut down" by mexico (the only- single- "quality" opponent we play) then youre saying morales is better than mckennie, too. right? thats the logic behind what youre saying.

    cause ill start getting more interested in this conversation if something that stupid is the case.

    youre/were all making ridiculous, theoretical, unprovable scenarios. and freaking three of you now are trying to disprove shit im not even saying.

    this is what you dummies should quote from me rather than twisting the hell out of everything i say: is morales better than bradley, or trapp? probably. does it matter in any way- just for the sake of keeping this simple- strictly due to the fact that berhalter apparently thinks so? nope.

    but heres what IM saying- is he better than guardo/alvarez/dos santos? no clue, ive never spent a second thinking about it. id guess probably no? either that or keep on having no opinion on things ill never know.

    i cannot understand the fervor around this guy who- even in a berhalter-less world- would be depth. is there ANYONE- and i mean in the world- who thinks he should play over adams, mckennie or pulisic? berhalter cant even get that part right (moving adams to rb to make room from bradley/trapp).

    why the hell do you guys keep trying to "prove" shit about morales to me? i do not care, i COULD NOT care less if hes fourth on the cm depth chart behind adams/mckennie/pulisic. literally. we are talking about it this much and...let me check...nope, still dont care at all.

    i have never, once, made any argument against morales. i made fun of you guys fanboying over him. i dont know what to say about that other than stop being freaking babies.

    and stop being crazy people who argue with me and try to make ridiculous points i dont care about. at all.

    ...that said, pomykals way better and you can all suck it :cool:
     
  4. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member+

    Aug 1, 2014
    So, when Bradley finally retires, we're gonna see Will Trapp, CONCACAF BEST XI?
     
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  5. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    morales is a very good passer ....much better than i realized. watched him complete almost all of his passes in a bundesliga game this past season...pinging the ball around majestically.

    I'm not convinced he is the answer in central midfield but he is better than some of the players that have been getting on rosters lately, imo.
     
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  6. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Yes, we actually have to play road games in Central America, you know, the games we never win, no matter how inferior the opponent (slight hyperbole). I remain utterly perplexed at how playing in Panama, or in Honduras, can turn us from a +4 GD side, to a +0 GD side in the matchup. It's ridiculous. It's hot, and sweaty, and everyone hates you, and the refs are either paid off, scared, or both, all of that, true enough. So what, you don't see the same scale of difference in results against Mexico at home and away as you do with Costa Rica, with Honduras, with Panama. It's beyond absurd. We took it to ridiculous heights last cycle, adding freaking T&T to the teams we couldn't handle on the road. So bizarre.

    The only thing that prevents us from qualifying in the hex and semis for me is coaching and player health (both played a key role in the disaster in '17, and the former remains a problem limiting us right now), I am very confident in the pipeline, but again, if our coach is married to certain players, to a system, and not to rolling out his best team, he can derail everything, and so far, that seems still true.
     
  7. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    You won't find many in here who supported that idiotic take, or the Fed in general. The idea that the MLS or the US is some special case that only has been and never was domestics are capable of understanding should have been flushed three decades ago with Bora. I loved the Earnie hire, liked his background in Europe with team building from scratch, but I've been severely disappointed w/his performance (or non-performance, it appears the hire was in the bag all along and maybe he was just a sock puppet collecting a paycheck).

    This whole topic (non-support in our own stadiums) connects to a combo of cash grabs by the fed, the Fed flushing the fan base through the Couva disaster and how they handled the post mortem (more cash grabs and zero accountability) and the fan base reacting by not attending games (hiking prices as your products become worse reminds me of how the American Car Industry handled the challenge of the Japanese in the eighties, and now how cable is handling the declining #'s of subs coming in), and also just the fact that for whatever reason, ties to those teams from the old country (club and MNT) remain very high. I've met one student in two decades who supported the US over El Tri, and about 95% of my latino students from Mexico supported Mexican Club teams rather than MLS sides. It's a connection to the old country, and it's only been exacerbated by the horror show political situation we have going on right now, though it would be in place regardless (recall Lalas haranguing the piss bag throwing scumbags at the Rose Bowl back in 1998).
     
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  8. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Sadly, people here won't admit Reggie Cannon is our best RB until ManCity buys him and sends him to play in the Championship.
     
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  9. napper

    napper Member+

    Jan 14, 2014
    Fullerton
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree. I admit that I haven’t watched any games of Morales this past season, but in 2016-18, the games that I did watch, Morales played as an attacking mid, sometimes outside but mostly central.
     
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  10. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005
    #635 ebbro, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    Obviously you forgot about the puppy.
     
  11. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    FFS - you make a silly point “we don’t know if he could play in MLS” and then when confronted with the same BS argument, you call it obtuse.

    B1 is a much better level than MLS. It’s f***ing stupid to say that a person getting 50% of the minutes in the B1 couldn’t start for pretty much every B2 team, yet that’s the argument you and others are making. It’s akin to saying that Bradley and Trapp couldn’t start in USL and would be depth there.
     
  12. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I’ll again say that no one is saying that Morales is a superstar. If he was, he’d be playing for a UCL team. Water finds its level and his level is midtable B1. However, that level is significantly above MLS/ B2/ Championship.
     
  13. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Who has posted anything like what you’ve built up (Morales is a star). Every point I recall is that someone with Morales’ abilities and experience playing at a far faster speed of play deserves a look, given that we’ve played Trapp and Bradley every single minute as the 6.

    It’s impressive that you build a strawman while simultaneously criticize other for the exact same thing.
     
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  14. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Again, this is exactly what everyone has been saying. We even have posters now saying that he wouldn’t start in MLS.
     
  15. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And what makes you think he doesn't "rate" Sargent? I'll save you the answer: The only thing that you could possibly point to is that he brought Zardes over Sargent for the Gold Cup. That doesn't mean, though, that he doesn't "rate" Sargent--it just means that at this very moment Berhalter preferred Zardes' experience and comfort with the tactics over Sargent's upside but inexperience. He had positive words about Sargent when asked why he was left off. I'm sure Sargent will get a call up very soon (barring disaster).
     
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  16. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    It would be better if you could make coherent arguments.

    Pulisic is not a CM so not sure why you would have him as competition with Morales, Bradley, Trapp, etc. Whomever is third on the CM depth chart has a strong probability in playing in a tournament given the likelihood of injury so it's not an unimportant position.

    More importantly, I'm saying that a partnership between Morales and McKennie is likely to be more complementary to each other (and also better for Pulisic) than having a poor defender as one of the CM pairings. Does Morales have to be better than guardo/alvarez/dos santos or does he simply have to make McKennie more comfortable and better able to hit his ceiling?
     
  17. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm sure you'd never know if I didn't mention now that I repped @um_chili post. I feel exactly like him. There are some positive signs from Berhalter, but definitely some weaknesses that he needs to address. I'm open to giving him more time to see if he addresses those weaknesses. I'm on the fence as to whether I think he's capable of that.
     
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  18. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am not defending Bradley or US Soccer at all but seriously, die National-Mannschaft has Nikolas Sule, Mats Hummels, Rudiger, Mattias Ginter, etc etc. We have Trapp as a backup at best under the current regime??? Talk about a decision between a douche and a turd sandwich.
     
  19. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Despite my voluminous criticism, I'm open to seeing what Berhalter does for the rest of 2019 and I have some hope that he'll adjust appropriately.

    I'll reiterate a prior point: many of my concerns about Berhalter were evident before the Gold Cup and when those concerns were pointed out, there was a chorus of (reasonable) replies saying that "it's too early to tell". After the rosters came out and were highly disappointing, there was a lot of dissembling about injuries etc. (which there certainly were). When the actual games started, I saw many of the same biases come to fore and I think that we paid the price for them (even though we only slightly underperformed IMO).

    What I'm looking for is
    1. the move away from Bradley and Trapp as building block, which essentially means that they cannot play as a 6 as once they're on the field at that critical position, it causes a cascading series of compensations that clearly shows that we're building around them.
    2. I'd also integrate a bunch of the sufficiently promising players who have yet to participate in Berhalter's regime
    3. Actively work to remove any hint that there's a bias towards MLS or prior relationship with Berhalter from roster/line-up decisions.

    ps. in a pre-match thread https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/us...i-finals-wed-7-1.2104839/page-9#post-37946395, you asked "What things have I gone off on that are simply true? Morales is definitely the better player? Berhalter is definitely an idiot?" and I couldn't respond because the thread was closed, so I'll respond here: There was a typo that I corrected after your response and what I actually meant was that you went off on thing that "aren't true", not "are true". Apologies for the confusion.
     
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  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I'd be careful with posts like this. This is very controversial stuff.
     
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  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    This just crap.

    Both Bruce and Bob preferred their players playing abroad. Arena complained about them not going and Bob only took 4 out of 23. I cant think of Klinsmann roster with less than 10 MLS players on it.

    It is kind of funny thinking back to all the stupid complaints about MLS players not getting a fair chance. Two and a half years have been spent searching for those MLS gems and not much has turned up than just average players. Long looks like he might be some good CB depth. Of course he was playing in the USL in 2016.
     
  22. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I just responded to this too. I think we both forgot the most important stat was how MLS players were first called in outside of the January camp. This messed with people's views that a couple of decent games in MLS makes them international quality.

    These same MLS fans who complained back then didnt see any problem with this GC roster. I should check that thread out now. I wonder if anyone changed their minds after finding out spots 12 to 14 on the roster were Zardes, roldan, and Lovitz. 15+ must have really sucked. I think these people who objected to Euro based call ups have now created the "first team minutes" threshold. What a sad group of people.
     
  23. USA-Zebuel

    USA-Zebuel Member+

    Mar 26, 2013
    Club:
    Colón de Santa Fe
  24. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Depends on the price, Trapp probably makes too much for a bottom BL2 team, but if he took a pay cut he could probably make a team.

    I like Morales and think that he should be given a chance, but he is a Bundesliga 2 type talent that sometimes plays for a BL1 club that plays to survive in D1.

    He is not a savior, he has more legs than Bradley and as a pure destroyer he could fit.
     
  25. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    he's not a destroyer.
     
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