Best technique

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Alessandro10, Jan 30, 2019.

  1. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    Against Saudi Arabia and Middlesbrough ??
     
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #227 carlito86, Jun 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
    Do you have examples of R9 dribbling past 4 players from teams not named
    Boca juniors 1993/94
    Compostela 1996/97
    China 1999
    Neucthatel 1997/98
    Sampdoria 1997/98
    Chile 1999 (copa America)

    (Ps
    R9 had one great dribbling run on the wing past 3-4 players in the 1998/99 champions league against a legitimately great and dominant real Madrid team.
    Stil this is only one and I already ranked his peak in dribbling at inter Milan a tier higher)

    The point i was making and the point i stick by is No dribbling run he performed at Barcelona was above the skill set of CR

    Do you have footage of Ronaldinho dribbling past 4 players from teams not named
    Haiti 2004/05


    The level of opposition does not matter in this comparison
    It only would if i was comparing Cristiano Ronaldo to Messi who could dribble with ease past 5 players from getafe and do the exact same thing against real Madrid
     
  3. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    That's just awful defending. There is no feint or anything.
     
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  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The bar for Zidane is quite low in this comparison
    Still waiting for footage of him successfully passing 3 players at slow or fast pace to warrant a legendary dribbling rating of 97-99 (pes stats)

    Platini is never considered as a dribbling expert so the bar is even lower and within that context it was a great skill to evade 3 defenders

    Zidane couldn't ever pass 3 players with close control (vs great or shite defences)
    I see him as a more skillful version of rui Costa perhaps more goal oriented (but with less vision too)
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2002/nov/17/championsleague.sport6


    This was how it was seen at the time and this is how it should be
    https://www.xtratime.org/forum/11-fiorentina/24893-rui-costa-better-than-zidane-serie.html
     
  5. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    This one was also clumsy dribbling at best but is considered as the technical ingenuity of Pele
     
  6. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #231 carlito86, Jul 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019

    This is much better from him(starts near the beginning)
    More refined technically and also past his athletic prime (1969 vs red star belgrade)
     
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  7. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    It honestly shouldn't be though.
     
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #233 carlito86, Jul 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
    He literally bulldozed them Mexican players
    Too much power, skill and directness
    Very similar although not identical to this goal of CR vs mallorca 2009/10
     
  9. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The great technical part is how he gets past the last player, gets pulled/bumped, maintains his balance, and finishes with his left. It's a great piece of body control. The first dribble is not clumsy, it's a speed move but the defender had help from another teammate which Pele didn't see.
     
  10. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    #235 Bavarian14, Jul 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
    It's great strength and body control indeed. But the third or fourth defender should've cleared it. They did a terrible job
     
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  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Maybe it comes down to how each of us see things, so no point arguing but it seems you see that one a bit like I see Messi's acclaimed 'best goal ever' in the Copa Del Rey Final (I'm saying this an example that comes to mind, not to antagonise you as I know you are a big fan/admirer of his).

    I would say though that it might be argued even that technically speaking the best part of Pele's goal is how he improvises skilfully a block tackle to retain possession. I'm not counting the body movements as technical btw, because they don't involve touching the ball.
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    A couple of things did come to mind for me re: this thread anyway. Firstly what a realistic (sensible formation and with complimentary players - so not two who were predominantly libero types for example - I know my choices in central defence might still be seen as a stretch even in that respect just as in regular all-time XI selections) 'Technical All-Time XI' might look like. I'm wondering about this as my attempt at that:
    Gilmar (Brazil); Leandro (Brazil), Franz Beckenbauer (Germany), Bobby Moore (England), Frank de Boer (Netherlands); Paulo Roberto Falcao (Brazil), Osvaldo Ardiles (Argentina), Zinedine Zidane (France); Zico (Brazil), Diego Maradona (Argentina); Marco van Basten (Netherlands)

    Filling in the defenders and particularly the goalkeeper felt pretty uncertain but those are the names I came up with after a bit of thought about it. For the goalkeeper I was probably thinking more of handling skills, but I know we could look at kicking too. I seem to remember Gilmar from what I've seen as not only a calm presence in terms of demeanour but a keeper that was generally assured with his saves and handling (which would help transmitting the calming vibe he was known to do too). It's hard picking a goalie though - but an all-time XI, technical based or not, is no good without one!

    Maybe these would be the reserves for my attempt at a second team:
    Edwin van Der Sar (Netherlands); Carlos Alberto (Brazil), Gaetano Scirea (Italy), Ricardo Carvalho (Portugal), Maxime Bossis (France); Glenn Hoddle (England), Patrick Vieira (France), Fernando Redondo (Argentina); Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands), Ronaldinho (Brazil); Romario (Brazil)

    In both cases I've gone with a Christmas Tree, but with only one who'd be seen as more the attacking playmaker in the midfield 3, so that it is kind of a 4-2-3-1 in some respects. Obviously picking a team with true wingers in would result in different selections. They are not meant to be optimised as functional teams anyway, but just qualifying as reasonably 'normal' teams with players in roles/positions they often played. In theory I'd suggest Cruyff directly for Redondo might make the second team better technically and overall too, but it would have not fitted the idea so much. I did think twice about Redondo anyway because his outstanding technical aspects were more about controlling and manipulating the ball, and less about passing/shooting, but then none of the more defensive midfield options would be completely brilliant technically in every respect (Tigana was another that came to mind for a midfield spot for example potentially).
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The other thing I thought about was how my idea of top 40 technical players would differ from a more general 'top 40 players of all-time'. Everyone would be making different choices on both counts of course, but I also wondered regarding the nationality thing (not to start any rivalry based arguments hopefully!) how the spread between nations would change. So comparing my top 40 all-time estimate (about 70% to peak level, 30% other considerations) to my top 40 technical player list estimate (maybe something more like about 57% ball skill related, 43% ball connection related lol!)…..
    (I removed Schiaffino from my list due to too much uncertainty, so he joins Meazza in that respect, and actually I decided to not try to insert either of those in the overall list either for similar reasons; meanwhile Puskas would surely have been close to the technical list too for example just like IMO probably national team team-mate Nandor Hidegkuti, and Romario would have been verging on making both lists too given he along with his own national team team-mate Cafu would have been on the fringes of consideration for the overall list of mine. *Hidegkuti and Cafu video below...and actually the Cafu one posted for the technical aspects too as he's an interesting case I think in terms of not being renowned for that side but actually having a very good touch and feel for the ball, while also sometimes being referred to as a bad crosser but clearly being technically capable of excellent ones...even if indeed it's probably fair to say he was more Giggs than Beckham in terms of reliability of delivery with such crosses)



    Anyway, blue text denotes being in both lists (bolded if significantly higher in the technical one probably), and black text denotes being in one list (bolded if the technical one). Surely some of the players only making one list are also quite close to the other one (not just Puskas or Romario that I mentioned as very close, but Di Stefano, Henry....etc etc).

    Brazil - Zico, Ronaldinho, Pele, Ronaldo, Romario, Paulo Roberto Falcao, Djalminha, Garrincha

    France -
    Zinedine Zidane, Michel Platini, Eric Cantona, Thierry Henry

    Argentina -
    Diego Maradona, Lionel Messi, Juan Roman Riquelme, Ariel Ortega, Alfredo Di Stefano

    Netherlands -
    Dennis Bergkamp, Johan Cruyff, Marco van Basten, Ruud Gullit, Johan Neeskens

    England - Glenn Hoddle, Matt Le Tissier, Bobby Charlton, Bobby Moore, Tom Finney, Stanley Matthews

    Northern Ireland -
    George Best

    Italy - Roberto Baggio, Gianni Rivera, Alessandro Del Piero, Francesco Totti, Antonio Cassano, Gianfranco Zola, Giancarlo Antognoni, Franco Baresi, Paolo Maldini

    Denmark - Michael Laudrup

    Yugoslavia - Dejan Savicevic, Dragan Stojkovic

    Romania - Gheorghe Hagi

    Uruguay - Enzo Francescoli

    Belgium - Enzo Scifo

    Portugal -
    Luis Figo, Rui Costa, Eusebio, Cristiano Ronaldo

    Poland - Kazimierz Deyna

    Bulgaria - Yordan Letchkov

    Norway - Lars Bohinen

    Spain - Andres Iniesta

    Germany -
    Franz Beckenbauer, Gerd Muller, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, Lothar Matthaus

    Hungary - Ferenc Puskas

    Soviet Union - Lev Yashin

    Scotland - Kenny Dalglish

    Liberia - George Weah

    Ukraine - Andriy Shevchenko

    Interesting maybe to spot the ones who didn't make the technical-based 40 who are/were clearly athletic (Henry, Di Stefano, Gullit, Charlton, Baresi, Eusebio, C.Ronaldo, Rummenigge, Matthaus, Weah, Shevchenko) and also those who are clearly not compared to other legends (Moore, Muller, Puskas, Yashin of course, Dalglish)
     
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  14. Alessandro10

    Alessandro10 Member

    Dec 6, 2010
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Spain also Isco. Germany Netzer. Uruguay Recoba.
     
  15. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #240 carlito86, Jul 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
    How is it possible that neymar didn't make even the cut
    despite him being a diva, despite him being a petulant and immature person he is unanimously considered the most gifted player of his generation.
    every single footballing generation had one technical genius
    How could he be denied a position?

    Not saying he is the most technical by any meansbut his ability warrants him a position
    Even if PES didn't award him a legendary ball control rating he is still elite,
    Elite enough that both his dribbling and passing is in the 90-95 range


    I have to say briefly about CR his inclusion besides ruud gullit and Andriy Shevchenko as an "athletic phenomenon"
    Luis Figo himself said CR was more skilled than Eusebio but hesitated to say he was greater (as a player) purely out of respect

    Im not going to list quotes but suffice to say

    players of the stature of Pele, Alfredo di Stefano,eusebio,van Basten, Bobby Charlton,Ronaldinho,lionel messi,Xavi,cruyff etc
    All suggested explicitly or implicitly than cristiano was a legendary talent at one point or another (not "fake news" either)
    Had he lived in a era where only his best goals and actions were recorded what your standpoint be then?

    It is an injustice to deny him that IMO for the simple reason that none of the players you listed besides him (KHR,matthaus,gullit,henry etc) were considered technical geniuses neither in their era or by revisionists

    As a knowledgeable poster and student of the game how do you insist on denying not just the analysis of one biased critic but rather the analysis of those whom you yourself consider to be technically elite.

    His ability as a technical genius has been validated by the greatest technical players in history.
    Who are you,who am I,who is anyone to deny him this?
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Carlito mate, can we just agree to disagree (you already had a conversation with others about whether he should be included)?

    I did say some of the names in each of my lists could be close to making the other list, and I fully understand everyone's lists would differ from each other somewhat.

    Let's just appreciate we each make good posts that can add to the board (for example: the Robert Pires post you made today with the video and the link to a discussion thread of Arsenal fans: btw he is a highly technically skilled player and he's not been included by me or mentioned by anyone until now for this topic so that's an example that suggests it's not straightforward to get an inclusion I think).
     
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Of course I understand these may have claims too, and can be in your 40 perhaps if you try to make such a selection...but I only have 40 spaces and to be fair as I intimated early on the choices will be very marginal so I wasn't saying at all that the 40 names are definitely in and everyone else out (same for the overall player list because there will be many choices viable after the first 12 to 20 names say, that most might include).

    Nice ideas anyway!
     
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  18. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    A certain technical player from Nigeria is missing
     
  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Robert Pires 01/02 was in all likelihood as great as franck ribery 12/13

    Difference is he did not play for a all conquering side that won 5 major trophies in a single season
    And he didn't have michel platini advocating on his behalf (he was too busy propping up zidane most of the time-except the times he grew jealous that his marketing creation was beginning to "outshine" him
    Which can explain comments as
    "What zidane could do with a ball Maradona could do with an orange"



    Still after his injuries Pires never returned to that level
    He essentially never exceeded the level of a top 10 player in the world (and was at that level very briefly)

    Based soley on the footage available his all round play/level of involvement via assists,pre assists and contribution to build up seems to be the most one could expect from a midfield winger
    Yeah maybe he is underrated as player (his prime)
    Technically there is little to suggest he was elite (as a dribbler in central areas)although that technical goal vs Aston villa was marvellous
     
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The player you refer to was nigerias answer to denilson
    Albeit with a bit more end product and purpose to his dribbles

    Interestingly I came across a stat the other day that claimed okocha vs Italy 1994 completed the most dribbles by One Player in a Single world Cup Match


    Bearing in mind this was the exact same "legendary" back line that completely neutralised world player of the year Romario this is a stat that shouldn't be overlooked
     
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  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Well, Platini praised him a little in 2001!
    https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/platini-praises-golden-pires

    I am one who always says/feels prime Pires was better than prime Ribery to be honest - of course I watched the English league a lot more than the German one but I am able to look retrospectively at Ribery highlights too etc and saw him in major tournaments, CL games quite often (but to be fair the best of Pires, except cameos like in 2000 setting up Trezeguet's golden goal, were not in those settings, so it is largely what I saw in England that influenced me I guess, even though I'd noticed and knew of his talents a bit when still a Marseille player).

    I actually felt that video you posted captured a few dribbling scenes and ball skills pretty well (only looking at goals, assists does not give that full impression for his 2001/02 season probably). The volley against Middlesbrough showed great technique and timing I think for example too.
     
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  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I did watch Nigeria vs Italy at the time, but even so after your comment I kind of wondered whether his 15 dribbles were all in one or two dribbling scenes...when thinking of this lol (if that is how dribbles are counted which I believe it is then I guess Garrincha would have loads in his day!):

    But I see now (although didn't watch it yet) the Okocha vs Italy video has already been made from that World Cup, so you can have a look yourself - the description even mentions the amount of dribbles I notice:
     
  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #248 carlito86, Jul 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
    Evaluating it strictly and soley from a dribbling perspective id think you'd be hard pressed to find any performance by Ronaldo nazario,baggio or Maradona dribbling so freely against serie A defences let alone against the National team set up.


    Unpredictable dribbler i must say and if his passes had been better weighted,decision making better and scored a goal or two we'd be potentially talking about the greatest individual performance ever(at the world cup)


    playing Devils advocate it could be said hardly any of his dribbles had a purpose beyond showboating.
    The same criticism could be levelled against Zidane vs Brazil 06 (a "dysfunctional" team and without legendary defenders)
    His sombreros and step overs in midfield led to nothing and assist came via a set piece

    So credit where it's due
    Bearing in mind this is the Italian NT,a favourite for the world cup, with GOAT level defensive Players (Some in Their prime and Others past Their prime but still Capable of churning Out Legendary Performances-baresi for Example)

    Maybe this belongs in the thread for "best games of best players"
    Not sure if he is a best player but surely this is a contender for his best performance in a high profile setting.


    As a final word on Okocha
    He did some things the great technicians did but at the wrong time and places
    Coupled with his mediocre decision making and end product I don't see him exceeding the level of Ricardo quresma for example

    Ronaldinho gaucho looked up to him as his "idol and teacher" but in this case we can say the student far surpassed his teacher
     
  24. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    I recall seeing him play at Bolton and he used that trick of flicking it over his own head more than once :)

    Marvellous player !!
     
  25. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Yes, Copa America 1989 pitches were also very very bad... but I still think that Copa America 1991 is perhaps the all time worst ever Copa America in terms of having the very worst pitches of all time. At Copa America Chile 1991 there was a lot of rain, and the pitches suffered the consequences of that; I mean, honestly, it was nothing short of miraculous that no players (at least, no famous players) suffered twisted ankles as a result of the unacceptable state of all the pitches there.

    As for Copa America 2019, I think the Semi Finals 2019 have been some of the best semis in recent memory... Brazil v Argentina was an excellent game, and so was Chile v Peru. With that said, I do not think that Copa America 2019 has been mediocre in a tactical sense nor in a competitive sense even if it arguably failed as a spectacle... Albeit to be fair, Colombia was thrilling to watch at times (well, in the group stage at least), and Peru has been fun to watch at times and also tactical organized, etc. But yes, Argentina was disappointing as a whole (which is nothing new), and Brazil has not been the entertaining "jogo bonito" spectacle that is traditionally expected of them (which is also nothing new); at any rate, neither Brazil nor Argentina have been a spectacle at any point between 2008 and 2019, so as I see it the Copa America 2019 is not uniquely mediocre at all in that sense.

    Overall, I tend to think that the Copa America - more than the World Cup or the Euro - does a better job of exposing what Messi, Suarez, Neymar, James are... when operating in the absence of the luxuries that they enjoy at club level. Of course, I do not mean to say that the Copa America is a more difficult tournament, but merely that the Copa America is more difficult for individual players, even if the World Cup and the Euro are of a higher level in the collective sense; for teams, rather than for individual players.
     
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