PBP: O39: D1.England - Cameroon.E3

Discussion in 'Women's World Cup' started by Gilmoy, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He was very close to outright saying that Cameroon were "uncivilized." Now, he did not say it, but he did a lot of inferring of the old trope of African teams being less than European teams. And by that, I mean superiority, not quality football.
     
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  2. Whatjusthappened

    none
    United States
    Jun 8, 2019
    US
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not gonna go into what was right or wrong...i do agree this game turned into a bad situation, but the refs did let the game get to that point in the first place...the refs will learn a lot, i feel they didn't control the situation well at first to let things get to this point...but that is just an opinion and a small portion of the games problems..wasn't just the refs, and putting all the blame on them when this match clearly had a bad air to it in the beginning is the wrong way to look at it.
     
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  3. hotjam2

    hotjam2 Member+

    Nov 23, 2012
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I kinda looked at it; here was England which has lately has tripled their woso budget into millions of $$$, who's spear headed or funded by billion dollar clubs like Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City & U

    here's the over $100 million facility NT training facility complete with state of the art eveything(which I'm sure means a nice comfy, theater so they can study every aspect of VAR)
    Inside the new centre of English football - YouTube

    compare that to Camaroon who's right now in a mist of a civil war, Where the average worker makes like $1500 a year(thats if you can find work)

    Who's players & staff probably don't get paid, but play for pride, & who(from pics Ive seen) got to play 1st div soccer on grass less fields

    can't you just be a little forgivng?
     
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  4. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Ok, I'll admit I am not a native speaker, so I probably totally miss some undertones. I have to be humble and admit that I am not qualified to comment about such nuances.

    I'll just say that I didn't perceive what you said. Let's say that a team had an embarassing behaviour and that this team happens to be an African team. Is there a way to openly say that, while avoiding the pitfalls of racist tropes like the one you mention? I hope so, and I was thinking Neville hadn't crossed the line about that. But if you think he did, I'll take your word on it. I just hope that it's possible to boldly criticize Cameroon's behaviour without necessarily being preemptively accused of racism because of that.
     
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  5. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just to be very clear, she was talking to me.
     
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  6. KimLittle#Magic

    Arsenal
    England
    Jun 16, 2019
    Still unacceptable behaviour. I don't think those circumstances allow them any leeway.
     
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  7. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I watched a good part of the video of the press conference, and I found utterly offensive the questions from some journalists (maybe just a single one of them, not sure if it was always him), who were claiming (presenting that as a certain and proven fact) that the match had an unfair pro-England refereeing, that almost all decisions had been "unjust" and that Cameroon should have actually left the pitch.
     
  8. Kakeru

    Kakeru Member+

    Manchester United
    Japan
    Feb 22, 2016
    Montréal, QC, Canada
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.:thumbsdown: I watched the AFC U-20 final between Japan and Afghanistan on the other day, and those Afghan boys handled themselves very well despite the fact that their country has endured a civil war for almost 2 decades now.

    Adversity is supposed to reveal character, but it revealed their ugly side. As much as I want to be forgiving, I cannot excuse the fact that there has been so many disregards to the universal concept of sportsmanship and rule-abiding. Rules are for everyone.
     
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  9. BarryfromEastenders

    Staff Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    The same questioner also mentioned Nigeria being robbed in the Germany game? Bizarre. If there had been a bad decision against one of the teams in those game then I could understand :confused:
     
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  10. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He tried to toe the line, but I've listened to Neville for several years as commentator, and while his ability to manage his players is pretty good, his ability to talk about who he sees as opposition can be very poor, and disingenuous. His comments today, in the video link, were very complimentary of his team, while not just criticizing Cameroon for playing a tough match, but by saying things like "this wasn't football...this is going out world wide...[the image] going out world wide about how to act...there is a bigger picture, there is a certain standard of behavior you have got to do, my players did that and I'm proud." Without understanding the way Europeans have historically looked down on African teams, the comment can appear as just criticism, but he had all the hallmarks of European/British superiority, not just criticism.

    To be clear (and I must admit I did not get to watch the match), Cameroon seemed to have earned their negative critique of the match. But there is a way to put it which is much better. And I'm not so sure he would be as critical of Beckham (@Romario'sgurl ) or Roy Keene or Eric Cantona, all who had moments or careers as hard as Cameroon did today.
     
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  11. Romario'sgurl

    Romario'sgurl Member+

    Wakanda FC
    Aug 26, 2000
    Wakanda
    Club:
    FC Ingolstadt 04
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    My dad (RIP) would always remind me to take notice of a person’s “tone” when talking to them. Phil had “that tone”.

    This stuff with Phil reminds me of whenever Serena has a moment on the court and the same people who critcize her behavior, turn around and heap praise on Mcenroe for having been a “fierce competitor”.
     
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  12. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yup. Reading the words and hearing them provide two different contexts.
     
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  13. W.A.S.P.

    W.A.S.P. Member+

    Leeds United
    England
    Sep 20, 2012
    St. Louis
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Bless you
     
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  14. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    FIFA needs to address it by fining or otherwise sanctioning the Cameroon FA for the collective behavior of their team.

    Also piss poor refereeing that Cameroon didn't end up with eight players.
     
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  15. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Ok, my bad. As I admitted, I was unable to perceive that "tone".

    I keep standing by my claim that Cameroon's behaviour from today was deserving some bold criticism, but I get to understand why Neville's tone could have sounded as patronizing.
     
  16. W.A.S.P.

    W.A.S.P. Member+

    Leeds United
    England
    Sep 20, 2012
    St. Louis
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I watched all of the post-match interview session too and found it all quite odd. I'm biased of course, but Neville said the right things. People will find ways to spin what he says no matter what because of their anti-England bias.
     
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  17. W.A.S.P.

    W.A.S.P. Member+

    Leeds United
    England
    Sep 20, 2012
    St. Louis
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    He didn't say anything too offensive when they were hoping he would so they go after his tone to try and make up for that.
     
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  18. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Member

    Jul 18, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    WTF, HOW could that player spit on Toni Duggan? I'm so mad.
     
  19. Unimane

    Unimane Member+

    Jul 28, 2009
    Nashville
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #244 Unimane, Jun 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
    McEnroe got criticized all the time and was kicked out of a few tournaments, too. I can understand the weariness with the tone of Neville, although I wonder if it's just the result of the sort of stuffiness the English can sometimes project. I have to say, the gist of what he said was not wrong and I was rooting for Cameroon, plus thought the goal they scored being taken away was stupid. If that's the rule, they need to adjust it, make it the torso or something, as in track. The rest of the calls were correct, though, and even generous to the Cameroonians for not receiving a very deserved red card on a few occasions. Their behavior, though, was disgraceful - spitting on players, pitching fits on the field, spiking players out of frustration, just absurd.
     
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  20. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Please don't go down that road without evidence.

    To be clear, the criticism is of Neville, nobody else. Nobody (here at least) is claiming anything against the players or the coaching staff or the FA or the fans. The only criticism is of Neville, himself.
     
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  21. L'orange

    L'orange Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Jul 20, 2017
    The referee should have handed out some red cards to Cameroon players for their antics. You can't let players react and act like that. I don't blame Neville for being critical--at all. Respect the game.
     
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  22. marco gabbiadini

    Sunderland
    England
    Jul 7, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It's a weird criticism to make when you admit that you didn't actually watch the match.

    If you get a chance to watch the highlights, take a look at how the Cameroon captain behaved after the tackle on Houghton towards the end. It was pretty classless, especially since her team mate had somehow managed to stay on the pitch. Red card all day.

    Neville maybe lost his cool a little in the post match interview, but he would have been justified in going a lot further.
     
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  23. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was criticizing how he said what he said - there was a clip posted. And if you read this match thread, it is very clear why he was being critical. But there is a way to do it, Neville just did not.
     
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  24. JimWharton

    JimWharton Member+

    Feb 25, 2017
    Really disappointing to see the commentary on this match. I’ll say up front that I don’t think the match was refereed unfairly. Cameroon got the kind of early match lenient yellow that most teams would have. There was almost no way to avoid calling that back pass and the ref was very lenient on the dissent shown after adverse calls. The offsides calls were what they were. Just because the reversals from the sky have been happening the whole tournament doesn’t make it any easier for the players to deal with.

    That said, the lack of empathy for the Cameroonian players is disappointing. Imagine for a second you’re a person of color living in a racist system (not soccer, per se...but not not soccer). You start the game with a REALLY unusual call that costs you a goal. Then an offsides call that negates a goal is reversed by officials and THEN the same thing happens for a goal of your own. The reactions were extreme and over the line at times, but I can at least understand where some of their frustration comes from.

    Fox is not helping things by repeatedly showing the reactions of the Cameroonian players out of context.

    I don’t support or endorse how they responded, but I’m also not going to tone police them, accuse them of victimism, or generally click my tongue and condescend to them either. The game was a bad look for international soccer. They didn’t help, but the problem with unconscious biases and systemic racism is that you can’t neatly parse things out and white-splain to people in the middle of it that *this* situation or *that* situation is or is not bias.

    To end on a positive. I think the England players did well not to get pulled into the drama (little easier when things are falling your way, but still worth noting). The same obviously can’t be said for their coach.
     
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  25. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    From what I have read in this thread, they really did themselves well not to get caught up, and at least from me (based on what I read here) earned themselves respect for keeping a level head.
     
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