MLS needs to start caring about the USMNT again

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by adam tash, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. OfficeSpace

    OfficeSpace Red Card

    United States
    Jun 8, 2019
    That's not what you said.
     
  2. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Look at the Squawka scores by position. In nearly all of them, the Top 20 has the bulk of the foreigners playing the position.

    TFC is doing worse than MTL or NYC, ATL is keeping up but they're only starting 4 or 5 Yanks now, depending in whether Larentowicz or Gressel start. Teams starting 5-6 Yanks like Colorado or Cinci are at the bottom.

    Not only that but even in a team like Toronto, which starts 6-7 Americans and is not doing particularly well, the better players are a mix: Osorio, Pozuelo, Mike and Jozy. And that after Bradley had a bad season last year (and Jozy was injured).

    Another problem seldom mentioned is the poor coaching. Watching MLS, the tactics strike me as stuff that you saw in Europe 20 years ago. I feel coaching is a significant part of the problem.
     
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  3. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    kenny saief said that tactics are the biggest difference. how can anyone look good on a team with poor tactics? they can't.

    I do not think that talent is the problem. its the application of the talent.

    THIS season is one thing but over the past 5 years....and the entire history of MLS the best teams have a lot of americans.

    regardless i think that the issue is opportunity. not talent.

    only a small fraction of the potentially good players are given a real chance on the field. that chance to actually play is necessary to even see what a player has....a chance that many never get.

    and we are just supposed to take the word of the same MLS teams that have shown to be inferior to the regional foes who are inferior to the other regions?

    the best teams in the world often don't know who will pan out and who wont.....I don't beleive MLS teams do, either.

    the thing is....the way to get on the field at all is to be a good soldier....to play great defense and great hustle and support the stars of the team. if a young player isn't blessed with those traits they never play more than a little and get cut without ever playing at all....

    so the ones who do make it up the ladder of success in MLS are the "good soldier" types...not the dynamic creative players that might excel internationally.

    carelton wouldve been a starter already in past versions of MLS and that benefits the USMNT in a big way. a small % of potential USMNTers are being given a chance to play extended minutes now...before it was a big % of those players and therefore more panned out.
     
  4. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    to a point yes.....but at a certain age the development stops.

    there are critical junctures when "checkpoints" must be passed, so to speak....

    until age 20...the american players are as good as any other country...

    but then they languish.

    the french u20 team had much much more professional minutes in leagues oike germany, france, etc...than the US team had in MLS etc....

    that is the difference....MLS doesn't truly play its young players...although they have been doing it a bit more this season, which is good.

    MLS can have 500 academies but if it doesn't play the players aged 18-23 in matches....and only gives them rare opportunities...it won't matter how much they spend on academies and development...it will go for naught.

    I find it very WEIRD that expansion teams rarely have any promising americans on them....cincy, minn, etc? where are the young americans on those squads??

    it really makes no sense.

    if those teams are going to suck competitively why do they need squads full of foreigners to do so??????

    in theory, expansion SHOULD be helping more americans play in MLS...but in practice it isn't happening like that....
     
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  5. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Throughout the MLS there really is only enough good players for about 7-10 teams. All expansion does is spread those few good players out more and more and dilute the talent that exists. That means that all players, American and otherwise, play against poorer and poorer players and therefore do not develop in any skill except learning to play against thugs and there becoming better thugs themselves.

    The MLS is to development as politics is to ethics.
     
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  6. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    That's the crux of the issue: five years ago, about half of the best players were Yanks. Two years ago, about a third. Now, if we're generous, 25% of the best players are.

    There's a trend where the league slowly improves, while the Yanks playing in it look worse and worse (perhaps because the talent around them is better).

    I'd say it's an overall air of stagnation for our guys.
     
  7. OfficeSpace

    OfficeSpace Red Card

    United States
    Jun 8, 2019
    This is nonsense.

    More and more Americans are playing professionally because of MLS and the expansion of the league is bringing more and more talented foreigners to this country.

    The result is a higher level of play for the Americans to compete with.
     
  8. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #33 Clint Eastwood, Jun 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
    I think a whole lot of humility will do us all a lot of good.

    Jamaica isn't Andorra.

    Since the start of 2017 they've also beaten Honduras, Canada, and Mexico. Right before they played this recent friendly against us, they play played a road friendly at Costa Rica. They lost 1-0...…...not 13-0.

    The current USMNT player pool is capable of winning the Gold Cup. Lest we forget, we won the last Gold Cup in 2017. Winning it should be the expectation.

    MLS is doing fine in terms of player development. I don't really know what folks want. Hal of the league has been founded since 2011. Its expectations that I find a little out of whack. We're doing really well at the youth levels with these academy players, and MLS clubs this season have been more aggressive about giving young players minutes.

    Folks do know that 11 players eligible for the next U20 cycle have already played in MLS this season? And we're not even at the all-star break. [Leyva, Yow, Busio, Anderson, Roberts, Reynolds, Araujo, Bassett, Haak, Arriaga......and dual national Efrain Alvarez.] You know how many kids in that age group played in the Bundesliga this past season? Two. Both on relegated Stuttgart.

    I'm not quite sure what people want sometimes. They demand that MLS competes with Liga MX in the CCL, but then also wants them to give tons of minutes to youngsters as a developmental league. X doesn't equal Y.
     
  9. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    yet somehow the US U-20 team is on an unprecedented 3 straight QF run...

    transfer records are being broken left and right for American players......

    I think the issue is what MLS selects for in terms of domestic players.

    MLS doesn't look for unproven domestic players to do much of anything.

    It doesn't give them a chance to!

    MLS looks for traits in American players that make for bad international players. they move any decent american to dmid or outside back etc....

    the pathway from college to MLS starter is gone.

    why should we take "MLS' word for it" that these players arent good enough? sure a lot aren't but i'm sure some are....ones that never get the chance. what has MLS done as a leauge to get the benefit of the doubt on talent evaluation???

    you basically have to prove it outside of MLS first to get a decent salary as a domestic now....unless you happen to get into a prime situation and system/coach that suits you as a player...which happens but rarely.

    teams don't know how a player will develop over 1 or 2 years of playing time...but many make huge leaps if given an opportunity....0% of players become something from the bench.

    look at players like Yedlin, roldan etc....they became who they are with playing time and opportunity and wouldnt have without it.

    teams need to give unproven players more of a shot, earlier....instead of acting like they know everything about every player without even letting them prove it on the field.
     
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  10. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Where are they going to get these young americans? They've had one draft. They haven't been in MLS long enough to build an academy. They've tried relying on USL players and that hasn't worked, to say the least.

    I'll comment on the Galaxy since I know them best. They have been trying to find better players but it's hard to do. Players coming out of the draft, who would have been good enough in the past, aren't any more. Second-chance players who became standout players in the USL are journeymen at best in MLS (again, we've tried).

    What's left are players who go straight into the pros out of the academies, whether an MLS academy or somewhere else. And these players are hard to keep. LLanez and Mendez, who were good but not great players at the USL when they had a brief time at GII, skipped for Germany. Julian Araujo was called up the U20s just when he would have had first-team playing time because of injuries. The understanding with Alvarez was that he could play for Mexico with the U-17s, which kept him away from the Galaxy.

    I'm sure there are at least some players who would do well given the chance, but that's true in any league. But I'm not sure there are players who are obviously good, and who would be willing to stay in MLS during their prime years, who teams are missing out on.
     
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  11. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Yeah, I think the problem that some MLS teams are having is two-fold.

    1) Very little MLS-ready domestic talent in the draft.
    2) Never-ending expansion diluting the domestic talent pool.

    The younger MLS teams that are just starting their academies, don't have the talent coming thru yet. Half of MLS has been founded since 2011 with more clubs on the way. Where was LAFC supposed to get domestic talent?

    MLS clubs are investing, investing, and investing in their academies and reserve teams. That's what they're supposed to be doing. But note that just from our recent U20 team...…………….Soto, Weah, GLoster, Mendez, Ledesma, and Llanez left MLS academies for Europe. FCD received an offer they couldn't refuse for Chris Richards (because he had a release clause in his contract).

    Ya know, if you take the cream of the crop from a youth generation away from MLS...……………….then there are going to be less young players that are MLS ready. Obvious.

    Saying that, there are some clubs doing really well. FCD has played 9 US eligible players under the age of 22 this season in MLS/USOC (Cannon, Pomykal, Cerrillo, Servania, Roberts, Reynolds, Nelson, Pepi……...and Ferreira's citizenship is imminent). I mean, what do people want?
     
  12. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    okay so trade for bench players on other MLS teams then....if you look throughout the league there ARE players stuck behind good players that are good enough to help other teams.

    I think MLS teams do a bad job of scouting the US market.

    When do you ever see an MLS team target a bench player on another MLS team for a trade? It should happen but it rarely seems to.....
     
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  13. STR1

    STR1 Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    May 29, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    What players that are bench are good enough to be playing on another team, as starters, nonetheless?

    What I would really like to see is MLS teams go after those Americans that are abroad that their careers don't seem to go anywhere. Some are entering their mid 20s and are still trying to get first team minutes. At that point they would be more useful in MLS and could potentially restart their careers and they won't occupy International spots either.
     
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  14. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So which is it?

    Our U20 player pool has made the U20 WC QF's three straight cycles in a row and that represents greater young talent than we've ever had or?

    They aren't good and that's why there's a lack of young Americans for MLS teams to play?

    What makes no sense is to praise three cycles worth of U20 talent and also suggest there's not young American talent to play in a league which is still completely mediocre outside a handful of sides.

    The France U20's we faced collectively had 500+ pro games under their belts at a top 5 league level....

    There's also a difference between throwing a young player out there and coaching him. Too often the two get conflated. We have young talent which does get thrown out there but doesn't look like they're actually taught the game. FCD comes to mind. What an awful, incoherent brand of soccer they play. Sure Pomykal plays but I doubt he's learning much from that coaching staff.
     
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  15. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Realistically, there is the question to be asked, how do we get more young players on the field?

    I’ve thought about mandated minutes for HGP, and I’m still not opposed to that idea. However, perhaps a more diplomatic approach to accomplish the same goal is expand the US Open Cup into the Lamar Hunt League.

    8 regional conferences, 4 teams in each, 6 games in league, qualifiers to enter. And, later a knockout stage. I’d maybe argue a game in March, April, May, June, July, August, and knockouts in September, October.

    I’d wager too that DPs are not allowed in the group stage. And, no issues promoting reserve/academy players up.

    Therefore, giving more opportunities for younger players to strut their stuff. And, if it’s at least one game per month; that gives all the players a fairly consistent playing time schedule throughout the season that otherwise they would have missed out on.
     
  16. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Honestly, I believe expansion is HELPING the player pool.

    It may take some time for everything to catch up, but once we have a league stocked full of MLS academies across the nation; there will be greater opportunities for more talented players to be exposed to a higher level of play.
     
  17. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #42 Clint Eastwood, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
    Yup. In the long run there are going to be more jobs for domestic soccer players in this country.

    But this is a long-term play of continuing to invest and grow. What we see on threads like this is a total lack of patience.

    MLS itself is less than 25 years old and half of its clubs are less than 10 years old. And yet folks act like these clubs should be producing first team and academy players like Boca Juniors or Ajax do. Most teams are just in the process of figuring out a first team culture, much less what they're doing with their academies.

    What doesn't help is bashing the clubs that are actually trying like FC Dallas, RSL, Philly, LAG, NYRB, etc. They're the ones trying. So folks bash FCD for their approach to Reggie Cannon and Paxton Pomykal. Meanwhile the Dynamo next door are barely making any effort whatsoever to incorporate domestic youth. People say FCD is screwing up Paxton Pomykal, meanwhile I watch him against French U20s and he holds his own. So they must be doing something right. They pushed Edwin Cerrillo, an academy teenager nobody other than FCD diehards had heard of half a year ago, into their starting XI. He's holding his own and earned a spot on the US U20 team. They signed a youth development contract with Bayern Munich that allows them to send kids over to train in Munich. And also provides an avenue for sales to Europe (see Chris Richards). They started their USL team and are essentially trying to field academy teams in that division. They're not signing foreign journeyman and has-beens. They're playing 16 year olds like Ricardo Pepi and Jonathan Gomez. So they're trying. Again, what do people want? Do you want to snap your fingers and have FC Dallas become Barcelona tomorrow? That isn't happening. Keep dreaming. They don't have the coaching, infrastructure, resources, or op

    The problem for clubs not investing in their academies is that the domestic talent isn't in the draft. Look at say, the 2016 MLS superdraft first round. Its been enough time now when we're going to see whether most are going to "make it" or not. First thing to notice is that 11 of the 20 first round picks weren't Americans. This isn't unusual. Then ask yourself how many of those first rounders are now starting routinely in games at an MLS level or higher. Very few.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_MLS_SuperDraft

    So if you're not developing talent yet and you're not drafting talent, then you have to try to trade for it. But you're going to have trouble having other MLS clubs trade high-end domestic talent. LAFC traded significant assets for Walker Zimmerman and Benny Feilhaber for instance. OK. That's two. Where are the rest coming from? You kind of hope that you can pick them up from the MLS scrapheap and find diamonds in the rough. Then you have jettison them fast because most aren't and are never going to be at an MLS level. They're roster filler. The level of MLS is higher than many give it credit for, and teams do actually want to win.
     
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  18. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think there’s a growing consensus that MLS is roughly equivalent to B2/Championship.

    You think that’s wrong?
     
  19. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    For the Galaxy, they've pulled Servando Carrasco, Matt Lampson, and Chris Pontius from other teams. Meh. But players move all the time.




    For the Galaxy, Perry Kitchen, Sebastian Lletget and Joe Corona. Lletget was a success (aside from injuries), Kitchen a failure, Corona too early to tell. It's a good source because, as you say, they don't take up an international spot, but I think there's a pretty limited supply.
     
  20. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I'm not sure the two ideas are inconsistent. There were 23? players on the U-20 roster, which is about one per MLS team. But of those, half play overseas.

    The second 23 is probably more domestically based, but my guess is that the drop off in quality is pretty significant.

    For the Galaxy 00's (just because I'm more familiar with them) Alex Mendez went to Germany and mostly the rest went to college. My guess is that you'll see some of them have journeyman professional careers, bouncing around the USL and the smaller European leagues. Too early to say, of course, but that's my expectation.
     
  21. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I agree with this.

    Despite what Garber says, MLS and the USSF do not have to be fully aligned on everything.

    There are times when MLS’ interest will be directly contrary to the USSF and the USSF should be prepared to negotiate as ruthlessly as MLS does (that’s not a pejorative in my view) to get a fair deal.

    However, in this instance, it appears that MLS’ goal to develop young domestic players aligned quite nicely with what’s good for the USMNT.

    Two suggestions I would add is

    1. Allow youth players to sign for any team that want across the league so they can avoid situations that wouldn’t be good for their development. I understand that this may be happening.

    2. Demand that all youth contracts have a player driven out at 19 years old so MLS doesnt have a veto right on them moving to a better situation. I think this may be similar to a fifa rule that MLS doesn’t adhere to but I’m not sure.

    Given the change in S/TC, a 19-yr old trigger would encourage MLS teams to sell on young players at more modest upfront prices and thereby increasing the universe of potential buyers who now may be able to compete with the huge teams with loan armies. They would be able to receive money later if the talent improves and gets sold to the big boys.

    Adam tash - what are your specific recommendations that MLS change? Complaining isn’t enough - give some considerations.
     
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  22. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i like your 2 suggestions...I have suggested similar things elsewhere! those seemingly small differences would make a world of difference...I think also eliminating the draft and just allowing players to pick the best fit for them will do wonders.

    I think there's a stark dichotomy in MLS between the teams who consider using US youth and the ones who are seemingly diametrically opposed...and if you look at FCD and NYRB, for example, you see players basically COMING OUT OF NOWHERE to be successful. It proves to me that it is all about opportunity.

    Somehow MLS needs to get creative and incentivize playing young players.

    I think the stratitfied nature of roster rules is also very detrimental to young unproven players....I would predict that simplifying roster rules and going more towards a flat cap and just let teams sign who they want for how much they want (within reason) would also be beneficial to the cause of unproven players. As it is now....they are behind the 8 ball big time just in terms of roster dynamics....they would be anyway...but it is exacerbated by the specific rules that MLS has for clubs - which dictate club behavior to a large extent.

    I don't see that clubs like FCD, NYRB, RSL are somehow worse off for playing youth...in my opinion they are some of the more watchable clubs in the league....I don't see it as trading competitiveness for development...they enhance each other.

    Lastly, I would look at tweaking the rules for INTL players in the league. MLS wants to the be the next EPL...they even call the USL the "USL Championship" now (LoL)....well look what's happening in England...the best english youth are being forced to leave England for playing time. I've been told that MLS cannot adjust its rules for INTL players bc of labor law....i find that doubtful. Not sure exactly how the rules should be tweaked...but leagues all over europe are much more strict about non-EU players in their leagues than MLS is....EPL being among the strictest. Something can be done there.

    I just don't believe the narrative that the problem is not enough good american players...not when players like Parks and Vasquez who get zero starts in MLS can kill it in the US Open Cup. I think it all comes down to opportunity....
     
  23. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I have no idea, but that sounds about right.

    The first overall pick in that 2016 MLS Superdraft was Jack Harrison. A non-American. Last year he was playing in the Championship with Leeds.

    So if the number one overall pick in the draft is Championship quality..............what does that suggest about the rest of the players in the draft?

    The elite domestic talent is being developed at MLS academies. Those players are signing homegrown deals or moving abroad. If you're not developing your own versions of Tyler Adams and Matt Miazga and Reggie Cannon and Paxton Pomykal and the list goes on...................then its increasingly difficult to find domestic talent. You have to sign foreign talent. See the Houston Dynamo. See the Portland Timbers. See the Chicago Fire. When MLS extends free agency to all of its players (as opposed to the limited few with enough time spent in the league)..............then this could change. Then when Reggie Cannon's deal expires, the TImbers can sign him. Right now they can't. There's a limited supply and increased demand for those types of players. I mean, we are up to 36 teams in the USL Championship now (with more being added every year). Those clubs need players. And many domestic players can still get higher salaries as a key player on a USL team than be a bench player on an MLS team. I mean, we can look at a roster like the El Paso Locomotive and see a 26 year old in his prime with multiple full USMNT caps (Jerome Kiesewetter).
     
  24. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First off, the USL changed it's name to the USL Championship. That wasn't in any way connected to MLS. MLS and USL are two separate organizations. Yes they have a working agreement between them which allows MLS teams to field a USL team in one of their leagues.

    Outside of Jadon Sancho can you name an English player who has moved abroad recently to get playing time? The opposite is still happening. English players make more money riding the bench in England than they can playing abroad. Given that a pro athlete's window to make money being an athlete is finite, they take the money.

    The main reason that young American players move abroad? Here's a hint, it has nothing to do with playing time. They make more money riding the bench abroad, than they would trying to fight for playing time on a MLS team.

    There's not a stark dichotomy between teams. FC Dallas and RBNY have had over a DECADE in the academy game, not to mention the fact that these two metro areas are two of the most soccer talent rich in the US. That's a major reason why they are churning out pro players.

    RBNY has a distinct advantage being part of Red Bull and their global scouting & coaching network. Then you add in the financial commitment that Red Bull as an organization puts into youth development.....it's not a surprise. FC Dallas has also made a long term commitment to youth development. It's a huge reason they are churning out players.

    The players on RBNY are not coming out of nowhere either. They've been playing in USL for RBNY2, the majority of people outside of the RB organization and US Soccer just don't pay attention to that. Now that FC Dallas has finally started their own USL team, their conveyor belt will start to turn out more pro level ready players.

    Philly's academy is finally starting to bear fruit, and with Ernst Tanner running the sporting side of the organization their academy will improve by leaps and bounds in the near future. He came from RB Salzburg who have built one of the best youth academies in Europe.

    The big thing for the US National Team will be how successful the two LA teams and NYCFC can be in building their youth academies up. With Te Klosse in charge of the Galaxy, it would be surprising if their academy doesn't start turning out more pro level ready players in the near future.

    LAFC's academy should start yo bear fruit in the next year or two once it's fully established. The one mistake that organization has made was not continuing the Chivas USA Youth Academy and re-branding it LAFC. Though it is understandable that they wanted to distance themselves from Chivas USA. The Chivas Youth Setup was the one thing that org did right while in MLS.

    It's only a matter of time before NYCFC and CFG's resources have a top notch youth academy setup. There' plenty of talent in the NYC area for both RB and City.

    If the rumors are true, and MLS does in fact lift the academy territory restrictions.......I think then we will see a stark stratification between MLS teams. It will be very difficult for players and parents to resist what's on offer at the best MLS academies. That's going to hurt the teams that aren't in talent rich areas (Columbus, Minnesota, Portland, etc.).
     
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  25. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This gets brushed under the rug far to often. Iceland’s turn around into a solid European side coincided with them making massive investments in their coaching infrastructure. We need to raise the standard of coaching. It will help increase the standard of players developed and improve the quality of the performances on the pitch.
     
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