Some insane crosses of Messi from flank. He rarely attempts those at Barcelona 7:35 dribbling past 2 Dutch players and delivering a cross to Di Maria which he couldn't convert 3:38 4:19 dribbling past 3 players and providing accurate cross
Didn't had enough time to watch this earlier. Quick and decisive long balls indeed. (Probably) only Platini is comparable in this aspect. I'm not inclined to give a 10/10 however. One must have complete mastery over all kinds of passes to get that. Zico, Laudrup, Messi have better through balls I'm certain Ball control and shooting is not comprehensible from this little sample size. Need to watch the full game
Passing technique continued Elite wingplay(continued) Diego maradona 82/83 (opponent unknown although I think it's a European game) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=grDmp3rMOrk 0:58-1:08 Cristiano Ronaldo vs Everton 04/05 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mVxFG9bCUHQ Starts at 1:10 Bending cross/whipped ball that takes out the whole defence Rivaldo assist vs the Netherlands 1998 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XygxrFKIGUA Cristiano vs athletic bilbao 2012 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DAtF3c5AOGM&t=13s 1:42-2:00
This could be a good choice for a full game I think even, in terms of variety and consistency of accurate passing as well as generally good ball control with some particularly excellent moments in that respect (vs Barcelona in 81/82): https://footballia.net/matches/tottenham-hotspur-fc-barcelona I say that not having watched the entire game all the way through as yet myself though (unlike the 1981 FA Cup Final replay which is also on that site). I'm not sure the assists from this game were on any of the videos I posted before were they (vs Forest also in 81/82)? I would suggest that slide-rule kind of balls weren't his absolute forte or preference though yeah.
I think considering those things, and the fact you'd labelled your post 'Italian technical masters' then maybe my suggestions are all a stretch or outside of the scope of your original idea (like Meazza, Scirea and for that matter Cera and V.Mazzola too; Verratti does look a good suggestion to me too though), except for Carbone who personally I would include anyway. I suppose the question comes when thinking about like I was suggesting how Rossi would compare technically overall to a Riva or a Vialli etc etc, but Paolo is not an absolutely obvious omission as a 'technical master' when we put it like that I think anyway. The grading system (although we'd all disagree slightly and make our own calls) was a nice idea though and maybe even a more strict version works for a worldwide effort. Converting my own estimations into that (where A-C grades would be passing as very good technical players indeed, like A-C grades were seen when I did my GSCE and A-level exams in England in the 90s I suppose - I didn't get any As so maybe I'm inclined to value the Bs and Cs lol and point out they are good grades!) I end up with something like this, although of course not definitive or unarguable by any means and I'd think the last couple of groups I'm naming (to include a few extra names that have come to mind) could easily be doubled in size - it would surely before long become very hard to separate players out from each other I think: A*: Zico, Zidane, Maradona A+: Bergkamp, Ronaldinho, Hoddle A: Best, Del Piero, M.Laudrup, Stojkovic, R.Baggio A-: Pele, Cruyff, Hagi, Messi, Totti B+: Schiaffino, Van Basten, Rivera, Cantona, Le Tissier, Francescoli, Enzo Scifo, Juan Roman Riquelme, Romario B: Michel Platini, Yordan Letchkov, Lars Bohinen, Luis Figo, Ronaldo, Ariel Ortega, Franz Beckenbauer, Djalminha, Dejan Savicevic….
Shooting technique (continued) Lob/curved shot from outside box George Best vs chelsea 1964/65 Starts at 0:09 Cristiano Ronaldo vs real betis 2002/03 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jViKOOxygNE Starts at 1:33 Scorpion kick Zico( J league) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2RRGelketm4 Cristiano Ronaldo vs malaga 2011/12 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5lr5R00l_Vl Starts at 7:53
Orchestrating the build up play from ones own half and applying the finishing touch Roberto Baggio vs inter Milan 1991/92 Starts 1:48 Cristiano Ronaldo vs ajax 2011/12 www.dailymotion.com/video/xx0smu
This was recommended in my youtube. Simply out of this world passing range and accuracy. There's still a lot of room for improvement in his choice of passes
Passing technique (continued) Spoon pass A trademark pass of Danish legend Michael laudrup which can be best described as deftly dinking the ball over the defence leaving ones teammate with only the goalkeeper to beat Cristiano Ronaldo vs Watford 2006/07 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MYkLHdidZkU Michael Laudrup vs osasuna 1993/94 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wojskBFJn_c
I find these players should be Tier 1, because they had so much influence to the football game in their respective generations: 1. Cruyff 2. Ronaldinho - https://soccer-tricks.blogspot.com/2009/09/what-has-happened-to-ronaldinho.html 3. Zinedine Zidane 4. George best 5. Pelé 6. Baggio
Ball control (continued) We've covered so far Trapping the ball from any distance/trajectory with the foot,chest and back Now for one of the most unique ball controls: Which i will refer to as The "sombrero ball control" Can be described as trapping a pass while running with your backheel,looping the ball over your own head or defenders head Performed here by the late all time great johan cruyff and captured in this iconic 1972 documentary/movie https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6UEjCphUSWc Starts at 1:42 Performed here by Cristiano Ronaldo in this league encounter vs osasuna 2010/11 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m3wlS1iyhUA This is a move that requires on the spot improvisation and cannot be taught or practiced on the training ground
If I try to make it 40 names and have a re-jig of groupings a bit (bearing in mind that I know there would be various claims that other players are also better than a B-, and that for example a number of modern players were in Carlito's post and then there is Isco who has been mentioned on similar threads and another Spaniard Xavi might be suggested to be in Iniesta's ballpark maybe - the arguments normally being the other way round as far as their overall qualities in Barcelona/Spain prime I suppose - whether Iniesta is in Xavi's ballpark). I did mention Marchisio to be fair as a modern player so I'm not ignoring them (though that was for borderline inclusion in La-Maquina's all-Italian run-down). Well, I agreed about Verratti too! I can see good arguments for another of Carlito's initial mentions, Rivelino, for obvious reasons with his tricks and skills plus his shooting that showcased skill as well as the power for example. If I lean more towards one category over the other, maybe it's ball control, but I'm aiming to value the quality of the connections with the ball (for shots, passes etc) too for sure. So maybe I'd move Pele and Cruyff up a category, and then put Schiaffino, Van Basten, Rivera, Cantona in their places in A-. Then Platini would probably join the B+ group, plus a batch of those Italians I think (Zola, Cassano, Antognoni) plus Figo moving up a group and staying top 30 in the list order (with Rui Costa taking his place in the straight B group - it's reasonable I think to even say technically his control over the ball was even better/easier than his colleague's but I think his delivery especially with crosses was not quite so good or varied). Kazimierz Deyna and Paulo Roberto Falcao I've got down to slot into group B too!
As always I can follow your thoughts well and/or tend to agree with your choices but can you explain (or give examples) of what was so special about Zidane's passing or shooting? When was it at his best level? (it's fair to say Pele became a better passer as he grew older, also Best etc.)
Sure yeah, I'll try! I think talking only technically (so not about ideas, vision, runs into the box, how quickly he can get a shot off etc) that he can be regarded as pretty good or potentially very good at those things, moreso passing I'd say. Putting a number on it is hard and indecisive though (if talking marks out of 10), and these actions (the striking of the ball with passes, shots etc) are not why he'd be placed right at the top of the list anyway. I think his general pass accuracy was pretty good (going by impression not by a stat), due to in essence being very capable and comfortable technically playing the ball around. Example of really excellent passes that come to mind would be the one at the end of the away game with Dynamo Kiev in 97/98 and an assist vs England at Wembley in 1999. He could also pull out some really good crosses like vs Manchester United: That is on his weaker side of course and he could quite often be very good on that side in those situations (the shot in that video that Schmeichel saves even being an example too, but for a left footed shot displaying great technical quality obviously his 2001/02 CL Final goal comes to mind...not that it was typical for him to score such goals, but then again even Van Basten only scored the Euro 88 Final goal in that exact way the one time). His first goal in Serie A for Juventus, away at Inter is another clean and technically nice left footed shot that comes to mind. And on his right side obviously he could score some nice free-kicks and place shots towards or into the top corner etc. I think I scored him above Maradona and Ronaldinho for shooting in my estimations in the end didn't I, and maybe there is a case for that in terms of being two-sided and considering he got less into positions to score than they did. I could understand how you might query whether he'd really merit slightly more than Cruyff too, or whether he really showed he was more technically capable or complete or consistent with his shooting than him. I think an 8 out of 10 at the least wouldn't seem necessarily too generous anyway though. His passing capabilities had a nice variation I suppose from a technical viewpoint too. So as well as the volleyed or lobbed passes, he could be very good with measured passes over the grass like with the famous assist vs Valencia in 02/03, away, where after he plays the ball through his own legs he measures a pass for Portillo. I guess those are the sorts of things that come to mind, but yes, his ball control is more outstanding and that's what feasibly makes him a major candidate I think. This could be a good example I think, vs Portugal in the Euros in 2000, of a performance with plenty of good passing technically speaking with varied types of passes using both legs and including use of the outside of the boot for example:
I see the PES stats conclusion is a slight raise in short pass accuracy and long pass accuracy too for his Real Madrid period: https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3496&start=140 I suppose the stats and categories are just to make the game work, and not necessarily to try to adequately reflect the players in real life in every respect. I'm not sure in this Zidane case, but clearly some players can be better with long passes from deep in midfield, than with crosses, for example and the 'long pass accuracy' determines both of those things I believe. Anyway I suppose these are the stats that we might be concerned with here (Alessandro10 already pointed out that the 'technique' rating itself is concerned basically with first touches), and the value given to Zidane (using the Real Madrid set because the other technical-related values are not deemed higher at Juventus and like I say the passing accuracy ones are a couple of points lower for that set * there is no pass technique stat of course so the accuracy ones are the best guide, while there is both a shot accuracy stat as well as shot technique): Dribble Accuracy - 97 Short Pass Accuracy - 93 Long Pass Accuracy - 92 Shot Technique - 86 Free-kick Accuracy - 86 Curling - 87 Technique - 99 Maybe I'll have a look, just out of interest, at how some of the other players compare. It's definitely not definitive proof anyway. I guess checking the Football Manager values Poetgooner kicked-off our all-time Draft (FM version) game with would be another similar exercise, likewise being an interpretation of the technical stats (in that case like I said before I think the Technique value itself would be more all-inclusive, but I guess the other values for passing/dribbling etc relevant too).
They actually have Maradona peaking from a technical perspective (because of the passing, while they nudge his shot technique down one point) from 1988 at Napoli I see: https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3434 Dribble Accuracy - 99 Short Pass Accuracy - 96 Long Pass Accuracy - 97 Shot Technique - 92 Free-kick Accuracy - 96 Curling - 96 Technique - 99 (but yes, maybe passing accuracy and range etc is not only about the technical side and not down purely to technique - nevertheless they are scoring him quite a bit above Zidane for those values) The other player I personally had in the top group was Zico (here maybe I start to question whether I shouldn't be adding Shot Accuracy too lol, since it is that rather than Shot Technique where they score him above Maradona, with a value of 90 for what it is worth): https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3432 Dribble Accuracy - 95 Short Pass Accuracy - 96 Long Pass Accuracy - 94 Shot Technique - 92 Free-kick Accuracy - 98 Curling - 98 Technique - 97
It's interesting looking at Bergkamp's page, because while at first glance the dribble accuracy even seems generous, I think the dribble speed rating does come into play here in effect too. Meanwhile I do tend to agree with this comment about passing accuracy values (to an extent at least - I don't think of him as clearly a class below Zico/Maradona in terms of the quality of medium range passes etc and the technique used to play them, albeit there is some talk of his teamwork rating reflecting the effectiveness of his passing game too): "Gammergq wrote:His long and short range passing accuracy at least should be 95. Bergkamp was a master of playing that killer ball long or short. Rodney Marsh once said he was the third greatest passer he ever saw in the English league after Johnny Haynes and Glenn Hoddle." His shooting values, from open play, looking at this early Arsenal years set (for technique and also accuracy) are above those of Zico though actually, though decreased for his next set for later in his Arsenal career although the short pass accuracy is raised very slightly for that set: https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3716 Dribble Accuracy - 94 Short Pass Accuracy - 92 Long Pass Accuracy - 88 Shot Technique - 95 Free-kick Accuracy - 81 Curling - 87 Technique - 99 Ronaldinho for his Barcelona prime (I definitely don't feel like the long pass accuracy being more than Bergkamp's feels right to be honest): https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3991 Dribble Accuracy - 97 Short Pass Accuracy - 91 Long Pass Accuracy - 93 Shot Technique - 90 Free-kick Accuracy - 94 Curling - 97 Technique - 99 Hoddle for his Tottenham prime: https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2939 Dribble Accuracy - 92 (again a low dribble speed rating has relevance here I think) Short Pass Accuracy - 94 Long Pass Accuracy - 96 Shot Technique - 92 Free-kick Accuracy - 88 (maybe could be higher?) Curling - 95 (maybe too high?) Technique - 95 I had a quick glance at Baggio and Del Piero for comparison purposes too, and Baggio for those 7 ratings combined was coming out on top and rated very well, comparable to these other players I'm listing, but Del Piero's shot technique was indeed higher and particularly high.
as you say pes stats is useful building up a good picture (particularly for modern/contemporary players) Classic players are either vastly overrated or severely underrated For example pes stats listed Zidane as 97 dribbling accuracy which is a complete and utter joke This is 1 point below dejan savecivic When did Zidane ever beat 3 players from a stationary position He was never agile enough to weave and his dribble accuracy rarely took him past 2 players Zidane could never in his life beat 3-4 players at slow pace as savecivic vs dresden or Gascoigne vs pescera He was never that good at dribble accuracy (nor was Ronaldinho for that matter) They were tricksters with good close control and athleticism (at their peak) PEs is ambiguous with a lot of its terminology I see cruyff with lower long pass accuracy than Zidane which is also a joke He pulled of more visionary passes in 83/84 than Zidane did in his career The passes like the one vs dynamo 97/98 are very very rare for him(so are his great through balls -few and far between)
Dribble Accuracy in PES language is how close you keep the ball to your feet. Zidane was great at this. Sure he wasn't so far behind the players at 98, but this is as close as you get in PES.
Savicevic and Gascoigne are given better agility I see (despite IMO other values seeming on the low side for them including certainly technique for Savicevic and definitely weak foot accuracy). I suppose it is difficult to judge the physical against the technical sometimes, but certainly it's true that agility (in real life and on the game) will help with certain dribbles. Savicevic is on 88 for that, and 98 for the dribble accuracy itself (one above what they gave Zidane). Gascoigne on 95 dribble accuracy but a few points above Zidane for agility on 85.
6:32 A great piece of technical ingenuity by Michel platini He dribbles at slow pace past 3 players (did Zidane ever do this? ) And still has the composure to pick out a teammate with a beautiful pass This would have 10 replays if it was Zidane or iniesta