Format for 28-team league.

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by shizzle787, Dec 10, 2016.

  1. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Something I find interesting after a complete year of LA v NY games is that they don't seem to attract that much attention. They're not even close to the level of interest generated by LA v LA or NY v NY. Frankly, they don't seem to generate much more interest than SKC v Orlando. they're just another match.
    I say this because the notion of playing everyone every year, at least in this thread, seemed to be hung on the assumption that these matches would capture the national imagination and that TV would demand them. At this point, they have not, and I haven't seen TV demanding more of that bicoastal cooking. Local and regional matchups with real fan involvement seem to matter more to fans.
    Which is a roundabout way of saying, every club does not have to play every other club every year.
    At 28 clubs with 14 per conference, what is looking to make more sense is 26 home and away matchups in conference, with an random or weighted 8 other matches (in such a system clubs would play everyone every 2 years. At 32 clubs, it would be every four years.
     
  2. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    with 27 teams - it would be awesome if MLS created a U-23 or U-21 "all-star" team - made up of younger players not getting minutes with their MLS squad...and have that be the 28th team ....they could always play on the road, if need be too...wouldnt even need a home city.

    ...would take #playyourkids to a whole new level...

    but surely there is some legal mumbo jumbo preventing such an obviously great idea from ever happening
     
  3. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd rather play every opponent. According to Google Maps, the Red Bulls are 8:15 away from the nearest club in that proposed Atlantic Division. Other than how far the players have to travel, I don't want to see the Red Bulls play those clubs more than the Western Conference clubs.

    I would think Colorado and RSL fans would want to be in the same division. If club 28 is Sacramento, San Jose would have a northern California rival. I'm not saying they're not rivals with the LA clubs, but I think the Galaxy care less about how they do against San Jose now that there's LAFC. If club 28 is St. Louis, they could be rivals with SKC and Chicago, although they wouldn't be in the same conference as Chicago.
     
  4. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    I'm still going to pitch for 4 conferences instead of divisions. That would be 7 teams in each conference for a 28 team league. Teams would play 12 conference games and 21 games against the three other conferences so they would still face every team in the league. The 34th game would be playing one non-conference team for a second time.

    As the league goes up to 32 teams then you would have to slightly reduce the non-conference schedule but teams could still play almost every team in the league each year. I don't have any problem with 2 conferences of 8 teams and two of 7 at 32 total teams as long as that is just a stepping-stone on the way to 32 teams. With four 8-team conferences teams would play 14 conference games and 20 non-conference on a rotating basis so teams would still play 27 of the other 31 teams at least once each year.

    For the playoffs each conference winner would get a 1-4 seed and a bye into the 2nd round. The 2nd place team in each conference would automatically qualify and get seeds 5-8. The next 4 best league-wide as wild-cards would get seeds 9-12. Those 8 teams would play-off in the first round with the survivors moving on to play the conference winners.
     
  5. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Is that 8:15 in miles, hours? Is that driving? At 28 clubs, home and away would be 54 games. Home or away would be 27. Then you'd have 7 random opponents, which is problematic in a playoff setup because while you can play six against conference sides, but there's an extra game. I think it's cleaner to go against 13 sides home and away, then pick up single games, so a baseball setup,, but that's just me.
     
  6. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    So just take 14, 11 plus three subs? Or set a full roster of 28, which would mean some kids on that team wouldn't play much. Does the legal mumbo jumbo include items such as: if they don't have a home, how does the team make money? Would they have an owner? A manager? Who would pay them? If they get destroyed week in, week out, is that actually a positive thing for them?
    Also, who determines who goes to this team. Take Busio, for example. he's playing, but he's not starting. Does that mean he gets taken away from SKC? What about Pomkyl, who is starting for Dallas? Is this like an MLS wide version of a national team, except without regard to nation? And don't most MLS sides already have this sort of thing in their USL developmental sides?
    I think you should be watching a lot more USL. Kids are playing, a lot, in USL. They're playing a lot in MLS, as well, but you want more, and it already exists in USL.
     
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  7. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    they could be funded by MLS....it would be mean 1 more home game for every team that hosts them...so the hosting team would make more money than otherwise.

    no owner..."owned" by mls......the same way the all-star team doesnt have an owner but is administered by mls - just instead of one week - it is for a whole season...not that complex.

    they would still have MLS salaries and contracts - it would be an alternative to USL games - a better option, imo - as they would be playing actual MLS teams.

    if they get destroyed so what - it is experience - and i dont think that would happen...but if it did it is still a showcase for these players that arent playing....

    it would be a vehicle for players who arent playing to get MLS games.

    if it doesnt work it could go away once mls gets to 28 teams - it would be a good experiment for a 27 team league to try, 9mo.

    whoever is the gm and coach of the team - paid by MLS as a whole - decides who is on the team - with consent of player and club - easily enough U23 MLS players not getting time to fill out this roster every week.....

    or you could say 27 slots on the team - each MLS team can send 1 player...and can recall that player at any time...to me it would be ideal if the roster of that team could change on a weekly basis....but that each MLS team had the right to 1 slot on the team...

    tell me you wouldnt be curious to see how that team does....

    USL isnt MLS - MLS is what matters- when was the last time a USMNT call-up came from USL? when was the last time a big team bought a USL player?

    I don't care about nationality - but I would prefer US players on the team as a USMNT fan...]

    creative idea to solve unbalanced 27 team schedule....

    and before you say that this isn't official enough or whatever....

    than what about ICC and ll these euro friendlies MLS teams are forced to play mid-season??

    MLS has already shown it doesnt care about going outside the box in terms of who their teams play mid-season.....
     
  8. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I grant that it is a creative solution. Also a creative way to mock Sacramento, St Louis, Detroit, etc.
    But do you mean the team would change every week? They'd be slaughtered, and it would not be good for their development.
    It would be like a national team dropping in on a league. The USMNT would be destroyed by most MLS sides, because while they are talented, they are not a team. We talked about a rebirth of Team America, which would allow a group to become a team, that would be interesting, though, as noted, illegal.
    There are a lot of "kids" playing in MLS this year, though. No one would let those players leave, and your system would allow MLS clubs to keep those players. So what we'd have is a collection of kids not good enough to earn playing time at their senior clubs, without a full time structure. I would suggest that (while almost certainly impossible) a team like that would be better off and better suited to USL, as well.
     
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  9. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    MLS teams are forced to play mid-season friendlies? As far as I can tell last year only 8 MLS teams played friendlies mid-season. And it wasn't exactly a glamorous list: RSL, Philadelphia, San Jose, Columbus, Colorado, Houston, Minnesota, and LAFC.

    Were those teams being punished and made to host games while the majority of the league didn't have to?

    My team, Houston Dynamo, plays a friendly every year to benefit their charity. I don't think the league is forcing them to do it. It is not a Euro friendly necessarily either. About half the time it is a Mexican team.
     
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  10. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #235 adam tash, Apr 1, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
    you have your predictions about how such a team would do...i have mine. the sad truth is we will never be able to verify who is right.........

    my prediction is that the team would surprise people in a good way...and shine a light on the fact that the young players who are not playing in MLS are not all not good enough...but many are merely in bad situations...stuck behind higher-priced players who must play....there would certainly be pleasant surprises from such a team....and it could be quite the platform for some players....

    i wouldnt think it would have to change from week to week...just that it COULD....if a player kills it on that team or the team has an injury crisis etc...their home club should be able to call them up...just like they can from their USL team.....I would expect there to be a lot of carryover from week to week...and a pretty consistent core...not an ever-rotating squad of different players b/c let's face it...the players on the fringes of MLS teams stay there for most of the year....

    a lot of kids are playing but way more aren't.

    there's really no way to know about the level of the young players not playing other than to trust the friedel's and tommy smith's of the worlds assessments of them - a leap i am not willing to take......

    i dont think the USMNT would be slaughtered by any MLS team....not even close. the USMNT would slaughter every MLS TEAM...think about it like this...how many "DPs" are there in the US pool?

    pulisic mckennie brooks and adams are worth more than every (?) player in MLS, for starters.....Altidore, bradley, etc are very high-priced DPs (who I wouldnt even start in a best 11)....there's at least 23 TAM-level US players in the USMNT pool....which team in MLS can come even close to 6 TAM level players?? NONE. every MLS team would get slaughtered by the USMNT....the US U23 team at full-strength would also beat every MLS team.... the talent is just too great.....
     
  11. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    As I noted, the US has talent. But it has the same problem all all-star teams have, it isn't a team. Sides like SKC and Seattle,, NYRB, TFC again, LAFC etc know exactly what they're doing as a unit at all times. The US is a pickup team, and as is the case with all nats teams, is trying to figure out how to work with each other.
    This isn't an xbox reality we live in. Organization and structure are massively important. Talent comes into the equation when the organizations and structures are equal. Superior talent loses to superior organization on a very regular basis, enough so that it's the norm.
    All of the best footie on the planet is played by clubs. Nats are exciting because they're disorganized, which allows pure talent to shine. But history shows that the better mousetrap always wins.
    Also, not that it changes your argument much, but FTR SKC has 9 or 10 TAM/DP players. Most MLS sides do.
     
  12. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #237 adam tash, Apr 2, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
    1. mls all stars beat bayern munich lol....bayern had more "talent" AND way more org structure....a result that shouldve never happened if you buy the official narratives out there....

    2. usmnt is actually too organized imo....too regimented and too easy to play against...players overzealously stay in their stations and never do anything unpredictable (lest they be blamed and lose their spots - marvell wynne was a perfect example of this - shoudlve been a USMNT mainstay but got caught out of position once or twice and permanently banished)...way too easy to defend against....usmnt is not disorganized rather a bit unfamiliar (at times)...and too constrained by their roles.

    3. please list skc's 10 tam players...
     
  13. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    1. Really? You're not seriously tossing out an exhibition match as evidence, are you?
    2. That's an example of a team that doesn't know what it's doing. That's how national teams play, they have to think through each step. Organized teams look fluid. Where on Earth does Wynne come from in this discussion
    3. I said 9 or 10. Besler, Fontas, Zusi, Felipe G. (DP), Espinoza, Croizet (was a DP last year, no idea this), Russell, Nemeth, Gerso. That's 9 we know are over the max. We won't know about Rowe until the 2019 numbers come out.
     
  14. aztec21bas

    aztec21bas BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 24, 2009
    Mullica Hill, NJ
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    so basically Team America from the old NASL days? worst idea ever!!!
     
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  15. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There was a Pro-40 team that was pulled together this way and put into the USL on, I think, a part time basis in the early 2000s. It really wasn't good at all.
     
  16. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    no an under-23 select team...made up of players that arent getting enough playing time on their "home" team...could be players from any country.....

    (though as a USMNT fan, I would love to see players like Miles Robinson, Carleton, akinola, bello, lindsay, busio, durkin, josh perez, tommy thompson, keaton parks, efrain alvarez, ebbobisse (especially before he started playing more), etc etc NOT have to wait on the bench for 1, 2, 3 years before they start getting playing time in MLS....) most of those players (and there are many many more) had to wait it out for a long time and some of them have never really gotten a good run of games yet in MLS...

    to me the results of such a team are irrelevant...it is just filling a need to get more kids more playing time....

    and it would be important to remember...with 27 teams the schedule sux...this would be an experiment for the 28th team TO BALANCE THE SCHEDULE.

    let's not undersell the chance of such a team keeping the mckennies and mendez' and ledezmas of the world from jumping right away to europe...

    if you could keep even a small % of the players who have jumped to europe in MLS with such a team....would/could be quite a boon for MLS, imo.

    as it stands the choice is now MLS reserve or EURO reserve for most players that are good enough to play in MLS...might as well make the decision into MLS starter or Euro reserve if you actually want to start keeping some of the better talents.....
     
  17. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Out of curiosity, how many MLS caliber players have "jumped straight to Europe" in the last, say, 5 years?
     
  18. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    a lot if you look at all of the players jumping to the reserves of big time euro teams....off the top of my head.............players like gutman (celtic), jones and taitague and mckennie and wright (schalke), olusunde (manchester united), moore (levante), de la fuente (barcelona), ledezma (psv) mendez (bundesliga) sargent (bremen) llanez (bundesliga) pulisic (dortmund) reyna (dortmund) hyndman (EPL) zelalem (arsenal) taylor booth (bayern) cappis (hobro) de la torre (fulham) cameron harper (celtic) amon sabbi etc etc...there are more....

    I dont know what you are implying with your question but if you think MANY MANY of the american players (certainly enough for one squad of 23 players easily) who are on euro reserve teams are not good enough for mls you are out of your mind.

    the sad fact is MLS is not giving these players much playing time when they do sign with MLS ....maybe these players would reconsider jumping into a euro reserve squad if MLS would actually give them playing time instead of making them carry the bags of vets and play USL....or worse wallow away until they are mid 20s like miles robinson before they even get on the field..........
     
  19. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd argue that some of those reserve squads aren't clearly better than MLS (Celtic, Levante, Fulham/Bournemouth). The parent teams are but the reserves? Not so much.

    My point in asking the question is that you suggested it would be worth it if even a small percentage of those players were "saved" by MLS. Given that we're looking at, generously, 25 players in 5 years a small percentage (say 10%) would be 2-3 players over 5 years. Is the expense really worth it for 2-3 players? I'd be a lot more convinced if a "small percentage" resulted in 20+ players, but that would suggest MLS is missing out on 100+ players right now which isn't the case.
     
  20. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd also argue that those kids being on reserve squads is probably better for them in general. Depending on the club their on, they are playing in reserve games and getting playing time and, in many cases, getting better training than they would over in the US.
     
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  21. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #246 adam tash, Apr 3, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
    you think first team experience in MLS is worse than reserve team play in Europe........LOL tim weah left PSG to sit on the bench at celtic ...THANK GOD.....it will be so great for his development..!.....
    the bench at celtic or any other euro squad reserve team is not better than starting in a league as good as MLS.........for a player's short-term form or long-term development.....

    Now the reserves/bench of MLS USL is not better than the same in EUrope.......i will grant that and that is why so many americans are over.there giving it a shot.......because lets face it - even though MLS is lower level league - they still wouldnt play those players - that are good enough to sign with bigger euro squads................

    you guys are just going to say the opposite of whatever i say merely because I am consistently critical of MLS and not because of the content of what I'm adding..........you are making yourselves seem foolish
     
  22. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh.. you're saying there should be a U23 team in MLS?? yeah, that's ... umm ... an insane idea.. And insane in a very, very bad way.

    While there is some credance to "playing the kids" having an entire team of them that is going to get stomped week in and week out ends up doing more harm than good. So, yes. It is better for them to be getting training in European clubs than to have an MLS club of them getting destroyed every single game they play.
     
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  23. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    duh the reserve squads of those teams are not better than MLS.......

    its way more than 25 players in 5 years.........and plus that is only the players not in MLS...there are many in MLS as well....and also many many many non-americans as well that could fill out the team too....

    coming up with enough U23 players not currently locked in as starters in MLS for 1 team....who are also good enough for the league would be a breeze.....it wouldn't even be close to being an issue..........

    why do you think a group of american investors just bought a danish team with the expressed intention of giving young us pl;ayers more of a chance to play?

    there is currently a bottleneck at the 18-23 age range where those players arent getting good enough opportunities at a young enough age to have maximum career success.....UCL players are playing first team by 18....................MLS doesnt do that (for the most part- but is trying to do more of that recently it seems)
     
  24. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #249 adam tash, Apr 3, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
    you dont know that would happen.........what if they didnt get stomped? what if tehy were good?

    what is so bad about being on a losing team?

    why would Man city loan EPB to breda if it was a death sentence to play on crap team?

    did being on sunderland destroy altidore?

    did being on derby destroy feilhaber?

    i disagree with your premise.....many examples of the best footballers in the world include cases where they were playing "up" a few age groups and physically outmatched...and that that experience helped and accelerated their development.....and in the long run made them better players than they ever wouldve been otherwise.....

    the problem for u23 players in MLS is a lack of playing time at the highest level...they only get onto the field once it doesnt matter for their long-term development in most cases.......my idea addresses that problem by getting players playing time when they actually need it...not 4 years later....whent heir ceilings are already much lower........

    MLs itself wants to be a selling league according to Garber.......................well if you wanna sell players they must be starters and they must be young enough to sell.
     
  25. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because if they were good, they'd be getting at least some playing time on their current teams. The fact that they aren't even making the game day roster, or seeing playing time, is usually a pretty good indicator of where they will stand once they get to MLS.

    Because an important part of being a good player is confidence and losing week in and week out has a debilitating effect on players. Yes, it is entirely possible to be a good player on a bad team, but losing, in general, is toxic. Particularly if you know that even before you step on the field, you're going to lose.
     
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