What's the USMNT identity?

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Oct 17, 2017.

  1. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    No midfield. We knew we needed to replace the midfield but every time I made up a roster without Jones on it I was called non compos mentis

    So, our midfield was Nagbe, Arriola and Bradley. And you're asking why we gave up so many goals?
     
  2. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Didn’t we play a 433 with Woods, CP and Jozy vs TNT’s C team? Having those three midfielders you mentioned against a team that dying to counter via the wings against us is just asking for an upset.

    We can create a midfield with those three players plus a fourth that is good enough to keep TNT’s C team from scoring. It wouldn’t be my lineup but there’s enough talent there to repeatedly not lose to that experimental side for sure.
     
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  3. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    It was a diamond with Pulisic at the 10. Nagbe and Arriola were the l-r cmids with the lion at the 6. Wood and Jozy played the American 2 blob forward scheme.
     
  4. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    We’re saying the same thing: We abandoned our flanks to press up the field and TNT’s C team took advantage of our hubris.
     
  5. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    All of this is just a straw man. You are panicking and suggesting we play Bora ball and claiming I'm suggesting we attempt to play like Spain circa 2010 which isnt my view at all. I also dont think we have any heritage or tradition that should materially impact how we play going forward. We should obviously be aware of our history, but we are still very new at this (also slow at growing due to our set up) and we should be looking to find our way.

    I'm sorry my view isnt as simple as being the opposite extreme of yours. IMO, our biggest weakness confidence and composure in the attacking third. This is something we need to qualify for the world cup and against any team that drops off against us. We may need to adapt to an opponent, but we need the ability to build out of the back, possess the ball through midfield, and then have the composure create goal scoring opportunities. Every quality team has this ability even though they may play differently.

    Ive never said we shouldnt have an organized defense. I just dont think it needs to be a high priority and think what you claim as poor defending in the Hex was due to player selection and poor coaching rather than some large trend.

    We didnt play Bora ball in 2014 vs Belgium and in the Copa America (minus the argentina match missing many key players) and our defence was very organized and tough to break down. Those teams were neither of styles that you describe. I viewed them as a team in transition of styles and where we were with the talent we had. The Copa team could build out of the back, the midfield was more about work rate and athleticism, but they could all reasonably possess the ball, and the front three all had the abillity to combine although Zardes was more a placeholder due to his work rate. Steffen, Miazga, Adams, McKennie, and pulisic are all reasonable replacement for the guys that aged or weren't good enough. Weah and Sargent look to be potential options in the near future. We need a Hyndman or Delgado to make a step to the next level or one of the u20 guys to break out to complement Adams and Mckennie.

    1. As I said above, I think be composed in the attacking third and being able to create chances would make a materially better team.

    2. Brook, Miazga, Adams, Mckennie, (Hyndman, Delgado, Canouse), Pulisic, Wood, Altidore, (Sargent, and Weah) can all possess the ball and combine with players. We have many u20 players coming through that are much more technical than what we have traditionally produced.

    3. We didnt qualify due to incompetence and arrogance. There is no reason we shouldn't be dominate regionally playing the way i am suggesting while focus on being more possession oriented, transitioning from the middle to attcking third, composed in the attacking third and crating chances.

    4. We are better defensively because it mostly relies on physical and mental abilities. This is why we should be focusing on the offensive side of the game.

    5. It doesnt mean it wont be improving , but likely at slower pace. If it becomes a bigger focus, it will impact player selection and create incentive all players to improve in that area. Miazga is an example.

    6. Yes, but they have the players to play other ways. France dropped off but have incredibly skilled players.

    7. That is only due to your misinterpretation of my comments.

    8. We could but it would slow the process.

    9. Systems can be devised to simplify roles for players that need it. I dont think we are that far from having a whole XI and think we have ton of prospects so will be building depth.

    10. Massively. I think I've alluded to that many times above.
     
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  6. saxman

    saxman Member

    Nov 12, 2005
    Frederick,Maryland
    I agree with much of what you said, but Belgium had a tough time breaking down our defense? They pummeled through at will. It was only Howard that they couldn't beat. That game could have easily been a 4-0 or 5-0 defeat in regulation if not for his play.
     
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  7. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The US has no identity. USSF is more concerned with lining its own pockets than actually fielding a competitive side. As long as the USA makes it to the World Cup (obviously 2018 is the exception), they are going to do as little as possible that might actually threaten the current USSF leadership.
     
  8. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Break down isnt completely accurate but not completely wrong. Our back four was very organized with help from central midfielders who got stretched at times and while Belgium had a ton of shots, most of them were from poor angles or from distance.

    I dont think there is a USMNT game that is more mischaracterized around here.
     
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  9. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    The Man With No Club
    May 29, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And. bsky, you lead the way.
     
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  10. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--


    Two or so very strong saves from Howard made these highlights. And I forgot how pretty that U.S. goal was (not just Green but that Bradley pass, wow).
     
  11. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    First, thanks for a thoughtful response even though I strongly disagree.

    Perhaps we are talking past each other but I'm not saying that we have to bunker and return to Bora-ball as we've been well-organized and defensively strong well after Bora left. What I am saying is that our number one focus should be to return to having a highly organized defense that closes down space and prevents odd man rushes at our defense. We have increased the number of goals allowed in the Hex and need to get that back to post-Bora lows (~0.6 goals per game). If instituting a more possession based, build from the back strategy causes us to give up more goals, I'm against it. In other words, let's wait to roll this out until we have an established pool that can do it so that it makes our defense better, not worse. We're nowhere close to having that pool now.

    ps. I am probably one of the few people who agree with you that we didn't try to bunker vs. Belgium. I think we put in defensive players (only Dempsey was an out and out attacker) in an "attacking" formation (443 / 451). I thought our defense was highly organized and made Belgium work for every shot they had, of which I can't really remember many sitters, odd rushes that caught us unprepared etc. If we played like this all time, we would put ourselves in a good position to upset teams as the technical skill level of our team continues to improve.
     
  12. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Importantly, you put a lot of faith in the up-and-coming prospects and want to institute an attacking system right now even though all these prospects are unproven to date while I want to wait until we have an established deep pool of technically strong players who are also athletic/determined enough to play at the highest levels of the game.

    Conversely, our best proven players play a more direct athletic style of play rather than a more technical game. To wit, CP and WM didn't make the major leagues because their technical skills are world class (note, I'm not saying they don't have technical skills but that they aren't what makes them elite vs. other major league players). They are highly athletic with high desire and drive. Same with Yedlin.

    To maximize these two core players (whom I believe will be central to our team this cycle), we would be silly to focus on playing "beautiful" soccer. We have the players to be a very very good defensive team who can quickly strike with speed going the other way, we don't have the players to be very good offensively vs. the top 20 teams.

    The more technical players that BS falls in love with (Hyndman, Parks, Zelalem, Nyugen, Lletget, Benny, Nagbe, Adu) can all be characterized by not being able to play for top 100 teams, let alone top 32 teams, at this point. In other words, while they may be more technical than our other players, they don't stand out in the global marketplace. Maybe the next generation of players will breakthrough en masse. That's when we should be having this discussion of "beautiful" soccer.
     
  13. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    bsky22,

    The heart of the question is: does the USMNT have a "defensively stout / counter-attacking speed based threat" identity? I strongly believe this is who we have been and it's been built upon players who have a chip on their shoulder and makes us greater-than-the-sum-of-the-parts.

    Finally, the thought that we would gain an immediate tactical advantage vs. elite teams by playing an attacking technical style (in your point 1 above) and not putting a priority having an organized defense (3rd paragraph) is just flat out wrong IMO. That being said, it's unclear to me whether you actually are saying that your preferred strategy will lead us to winning more games right now. I think you may be saying that it shouldn't hurt us too much now (which I disagree with) and is important to the future.
     
  14. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    which cycles do you believe that was our identity?

    I didnt mention anything about a tactical advantage in 1) and not sure about the other part as I explicitly stated that I didnt think we shouldn't have an organization defense. We gave up 3 extra goals than usual in the first two games. Arena was supposedly going to fix it, but made it worse.

    I think it would make us more likely beat lesser teams (which includes our region less mexico) and has maybe a slightly worse chance against better sides. it would also mean we would have a better chance of coming from behind against better sides than we do relying solely on counter attacking.

    Ive never said we shouldnt have an organized defense. I just dont think it needs to be a high priority and think what you claim as poor defending in the Hex was due to player selection and poor coaching rather than some large trend.

    1. As I said above, I think be composed in the attacking third and being able to create chances would make a materially better team.

    3. We didnt qualify due to incompetence and arrogance. There is no reason we shouldn't be dominate regionally playing the way i am suggesting while focus on being more possession oriented, transitioning from the middle to attcking third, composed in the attacking third and crating chances.
     
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  15. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is the key question.
     
  16. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    And thankfully Ethan Horvath seems to be growing into our next Howard, so we can play the usual 30%-possession style and rely on some set piece or counter.

    I don't think unlikely that will still be needed this cycle. Next cycle is the one that promises to be fun, IMO.
     
  17. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #117 DHC1, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    Post-Bora through BB. but I generally think of the 2002 cycle as the start as I don't remember much of the 1998 cycle under Sampson (I think it was the one with the cheating wife/teammate).

    I think we started to intentionally play a more possession game starting in 2014 cycle and it caught up to us in 2018 as our opponents were able to identify that it's a weakness of ours.
     
  18. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I strongly disagree. I think it makes upsets more likely to happen against lesser teams (who will dare us to attack them and press us relentlessly). I also think that the gap between the better CONCACAF teams and the lesser teams has shrunk not widened even though our program is deeper than it ever has been (an unintended consequence of MLS' success).

    WRT playing top 20 teams, I think it makes it far far more likely for us to lose. We have absolutely no advantage vs. the teams by trying to play a style where we have no world-class players who are known for possession / "beautiful" soccer. We do have players who play in the top 100 who play a direct counter-attacking style however.
     
  19. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Not sure why you would say "post-Bora" when that is when play most defensive on consistent basis.

    You should listen to the Roger Bennett podcast on 1998. The team played an attacking style. That cycle points out both of our points. The 1995 copa america was a huge success making it to the semi-finals which included wins over Chile, Mexico on PKs and a 3-0 upset of Argentina. The 1998 world cup was very poor and some blame it on setting up with no midfielder to cover the backline.

    Again, we only dropped off against Mexico in 2002. We went after Portugal going up 3-0 and then hung for the rest of the game... conceding two goals in just over one half. The Germany game that many believe to be our best game ever was played fairly evenly.

    2006 was just crap outside of the slugfest with Italy that produced a draw. We lined up defensively in 2010 but looked to spot our opponent a goal in the first 10 minutes... luckily Algeria only hit the cross bar.

    That isnt a history of playing defensively and having a strong defense. How do explain the Copa Centario in your belief that playing possession caught up with us? Our defense wasnt strong in the Hex, but very low on my list of why we didnt qualify. I'd blame Garber and people like the crew here with pitchforks for getting us arrogant, old arena who bought his arrogance to the team, which resulted in complacency that I have never seen before. The player selection was horrible. Injuries cost us Dempsey and Cameron in the first two games (which meant gonzalez played), Jones missed most of the games after the beginning and wasnt brought back in after healthy, and Brooks missed many games as well.
     
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  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Where were all the upsets then? We are also widening the gap right now.

    That is odd as our big wins or draws against top teams were often us getting after them and not sitting back.

    You also seem to miss that a lot of american players don't like playing defensively or what it does to the psychology of the player. It is hard to have a winning mentality when the coach is telling the whole world that the other teams are far superior. It worked for Bora because we werent that good, everybody knew it, and nobody respected us at all leading to players having chips on their shoulders.

    Here some of Ramos' thoughts on the topic...

     
  22. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    You seem to be saying that we played a possession attacking style in prior cycles while I think we played a counter attacking direct style with a strong dead ball/aerial ability.

    Regardless of our different beliefs, I focus on results - if you want us to play like we did in the 2002 and 2006 cycles, I’m all for it. In the 2002 and 2006 cycles, we gave up 8 and 6 goals, respectively in the Hex. We also had 4 and 7 shutouts in each cycle.

    our identity is based upon organized defense and a sum-greater-than-its-parts rather than some aspiration “beautiful” game that you acknowledge will cause more losses vs better teams.
     
  23. Papin

    Papin BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 19, 1998
    le côté obscur
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The 1998 cycle was pretty decent:
    4 wins, 1 loss, 5 draws
    17 goals scored
    9 goals allowed
    5 shutouts, including a 0-0 draw with Mexico at Azteca while playing a man down for a large part of the match.
     
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  24. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I'd easily take 1998 over 2006. The 2006 cycle was when the complacency started to creep into the team. The focus was on dominating concacaf which led to an absurd FIFA ranking. The WC was a real eye opener for some people. Sure the Italy game was great, but the Czech ran us off the field and there was no fight in the Ghana game. The 2017 loss to costa rica reminded me a lot of the 2006 ghana game.

    A lot people seem to just remember the slug fest with Italy. There was a real push after 98 to figure out what we needed to do differently. I dont recall anything like that after 06. Sunil courted Klinsman and then settled for Bradley.
     
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  25. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It is always good to look at the data to try to measure strange conclusions about identity.


    HEX
    MatchesWLDGFGAGDPtsFinish
    1998104151798172nd
    2002105321183173rd
    20061072116610221st
    20101062219136201st
    2014107211587221st
    20181034317134125th
     
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