Post-match: USA v Colombia

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Susaeta, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i think in his mind...a left mid in a 4-2-3-1...is not a defensive player. the back 7 should be able to handle the defense. at least that was my assumption from how he was moving on the field.

    i agree with him. if the SUMNT is relying on left winger in a 4-2-3-1 for defense, they are never going to score or create anything.

    sure it would be nice if that player could also track back and cover for the dmid and defenders who are getting torch but it shouldnt be a pre-req, imo.

    the dmid center back and fullback should be stout enough to not have to rely on the left winger for the bailout....especially since those positions are often stocked with overly defensive players in the name of team defense.

    the 3 and the 1 should be able to press and have a high work rate and get turnovers etc and be good on the break but defense shouldnt be a prime responsibilty of the position.

    now, what did sarachan tell him? was he saying just stay high and try to create or was he stressing to get back and defend....? if he was trying to focus on defense and that was how he played, that would indeed be problematic...but i dont think thats what happened.
     
  2. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    sarachan is a nice guy...a good loyal servant etc...but he is not the experimental type that will handle such a transition optimally.

    he is conservative and rooted in tradition and thinks the vets can teach the young players stuff.

    there hasnt been nearly enough iterations of cycling through the pool this year, imo....what sarachan was doing the first couple of games...he shoulda kept doing....but he settled on a lineup way too soon.
     
  3. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    in hindsight what bohers me about this game is that the cm pair of bradley and acosta was combined with an attacking front 4 that is about as aggressive as we've seen. i've wanted the team to go for it more...and in this game, they kinda did but got torched on defense (albeit to some lucky goals, imo)....

    but i wish we couldve seen this more attacking approach with a better center mid defensively b/c i think some might assume that this game is evidence that if ever the SUMNT opens up and goes for it, that shipping goals is inevitable.

    i dont think that is true...i think with a mid of adams and mckennie...the colombians wouldve had a tougher job scoring in this game and not have scored 4, and might have even had a better offense, too.

    so my hope is that they don't just go back to the bunker style of some of the other games but somehow i think that's what we might see vs peru.
     
  4. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    Secondary strikers are few and far between. The Dempsey types. You don't see them often. If they are good, I think you find a place for them in the team, but often times they aren't, and they take away from what should be an important playmaking position.

    I'd use Lletget as a #10. I'm not a huge fan of Pulisic as a #10, but he's an option there. Delgado, Saief or Gall could be options. We could play without a #10, as well.
     
  5. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    So we should base evaluations of Green's merits to be called into the NT only on what you want? We shouldn't base it on what usually gets players NT call ups?
     
  6. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    Miazga's mobility is average at best, and its probably not that. Is he the slowest player in the world? No, but he cannot be the quickest guy in the CB pairing. If he is, you don't have CB's with the mobility to cover for each other.
     
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  7. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If I recall correctly, a few years back they tried some method of limiting tickets to non-US fans for a qualifier, and got sued for national origin discrimination. I don't remember the result of the case...
     
  8. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mentioned to my son during the game that I don't think I ever saw a player on the ground as much as Saief was. He looked way out of his league.
     
  9. #8or#6

    #8or#6 Red Card

    Arsenal
    United States
    Aug 15, 2017
    Green is a versatile offensive player, something always desirable on 23 man rosters. He also is better skilled player than the majority of our other offensive men. He's 23, and I would usually agree that at that age he's a finished player. But I've actually watched him with an unbiased eye, and seen improvements in areas where he was previously weak, such as effort, especially defensive effort, and vision. Four years from the next WC, all I can really say is this: If he's not playing in Bund 1, next year, he may be done as a NT player. But only a fool would discard him at this stage.

    What usually gets players called up is skill, effort, being competent at positions of need, and playing in a competitive league. Green has all that, which should be readily acknowledged in a fair evaluation.
     
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  10. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    I'm not a huge fan of Pulisic as a #10,[/QUOTE]

    agreed

    agreed. I'd like to see Saief tried as the underneath guy.


    mmm, I like Delgado, but not in that role.

    Maybe, but it's way early on that. And, sure, give Lletget a look.

    But, none of that says leave Green out.
     
  11. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    The only meaning these games have is dentifying the pool of players going forward.

    Unfortunately, the only thing highlighted in this game is how far ahead Adams and McK are ahead of their competitors. Only Acosta seems to come close to providing what they do. I know some don't like the idea of another cycle with a physical CM pair but that is one of the biggest strengths of this pool and we should go with it.
     
  12. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    It was pretty obvious that when the USMNT didn't have the ball they were in a 4-4-2 and the left and right mids were suppose to be active on defense. Weah did things fine, he is 18. Saief just didn't do U13 level of defending. He didn't get goal side of his man and he sprinted out of his position repeatedly. The first goal, Saief steps to James, but then just leaves him.

    Robinson was not good 1 v 2, and Saief let guys go. I mean, he would challenge but not goal side and the Colombian would just dribble forward and instantly have a 1 v 2 or 1 v 3 with Robinson. When Saief switched to Yedlin's side, it happened too and Yedlin made a good play 1 v 2 on one occasion but othertimes it unhinged the entire defense too.

    Saief was either told to do what he was doing or he should be benched. He has only played a few minutes coming back from injury, so he probably should not have been starting anyway. But it is hard to believe it was game fitness that had Saief just make such basic defensive errors.
     
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  13. smokarz

    smokarz Member+

    Aug 9, 2006
    Hartford, CT

    No, you're the one missing the point.

    Who decides if a player is top, middle, or low?

    Were they born with a sign on their forehead that says I am a top player?

    Does their high school gives them ranks by the time they graduate?

    It's all about the individuals and their desires to be great, and doing what it takes to achieve their full potentials. A guy with limited talents and be very good if he has amazing work ethics and the desire to keep learning and keep improving.

    Whereas a guy with full of potentials, but lack the work ethic or desires will become mediocre.

    Brian McBribe became a legend at Fulham not because he was born with talents like Messi or Neymar. But he works his ass off and continue to challenge himself every day at the highest level he can.

    Every guy in MLS should look to McBride as their role model.
     
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  14. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Every American CAM you can list is either over 30 or doesn't play there for their club team. Except Green. Green does not play the position that well yet. Saief can't even function on the wing, so it is strange for anyone to want to play him out of position in the center of the pitch.

    McKennie has played there about 1.5 games now. If he continues there he would be the best option. It would not be a James Rodriguez or Christian Eriksen type #10. But something to build around. With Pulisic and Weah on the wings, McKennie's strengths in that position would be accentuated. McKennie played there most of his U19 career I believe.

    Weah could maybe play it the way Green is or Dempsey would. Not sure he can receive a ball under pressure like Green (the one thing Green does well really). But I'm constantly surprised by what Weah can do, so I put nothing past him.
     
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  15. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    I wouldn't worry too much about where Pulisic plays. It seems to me we should seek to deploy him flexibly and unpredictably. To be able to do this we need to select the other attacking players partly on the basis of their ability to interchange with Pulisic.
     
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  16. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #341 adam tash, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
    he wasn't playing a defensive position...that's the bottomline to me. robinson and bradley get torched but somehow saief is to blame?!?!

    it happened all throughout MB's reign of terror.....the attackers always get blamed for bad defense. or the center mod wasnt a good defender next to bradley etc etc.....

    the dmid and the backline should be enough to cover on defense BY THEMSELVES in my opinion.

    any defending from the line of 3 and the striker in a 4-2-3-1....is ICING on the CAKE and not a reason for benching.

    yeah it would be nice if the front 4 can press and attack like green did on the turnover that lead to the goal...it's a reason altidore is less than ideal as the lone striker...his defense is meh.

    attackers should be evaluated for how they attack. period.

    the SUMNT doesnt have all-around complete players who are great in all facets of the game at every position. the hustle and defend types arent creative and the creative types arent great defenders...so in the few offensive positions that are allowed on the field...those players hsould just be allowed to attack and not have to focus heavily on defense, imo....b/c if youre looking for great defensive attackers, youre gonna end up with a lesser attack, given the SUMNT player pool, imo....which should be a non-starter...the attack is weak enough as-is.
     
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  17. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #342 juvechelsea, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
    He comes across as a nice guy, and I am in reality a laid back person myself. I don't think he was a horrific idea for a couple games. Professional, experienced, it seemed no huge aspirations for himself. Put the team ahead of himself. it seemed.

    He's now going to basically coach the team a year and has started to take ownership, rip on players who skip, develop favorites. He talks now like The Coach. He has also as you suggested erred on the side of safe and veteran over prospecting.

    My point with my two cents yesterday was I think the initial games fooled people about what he is, that the core is basically gone, that most of the options are youthful, and that any coach trying to put together a new core would initially be confused with an experimentalist. Because the primary players worth trying are kids. Usually we have a veteran squad and 8 or 9 of the lineup slots are fairly solid and we're just looking for some filler. That core lost last cycle and is gone. So you have to try out kids. But that should not be confused with what we are suggesting, which is a deeper dive into the prospect pile for more iterations.

    In this cycle your relative commitment (or lack of same) to looking for players would manifest over time because initially the pool itself makes you look experimental.

    I think Robinson, Trapp, and some of his other initial favorites, now questionable, are exposing the quick dip he really did and his conservatism. He settled on lineups so quick that in the case of areas like the central midfield and backline (as well as the backup keepers, to me), it's like, I don't think x should start, but we haven't even seen y, z, or c play to know who else might be better. Or even failing that, who stacks up how relative to some other bench option.

    And to be more pointed it's that I think he's rooted in the same depth chart mentality that has troubled USSF for a few years now, coaches with favorites and ideas of who should work, held onto regardless of performance, or cycled out then back in despite bad games, abstracted, low accountability. You suggest new ideas and the coach with his depth chart knows where that player is supposed to rank without them ever actually suiting up. We don't care enough about performance. Too clever by half.

    Novakovich vs Sargent to me is the classic example of this, productive club player in mediocre league being cultivated despite repeated meh caps, but Sargent is the one with the goal in the shirt. And it's not even consistent how it's being handled because Pulisic wasn't some first team regular when he came in, and Weah and others are marginal first teamers, but somehow Sargent being age group knocks him down some pegs. To me that goal he had, the class involved in various aspects of that, at worst he's Green, productive for country regardless of club. At which point I think of the French philosopher joke about we know it works in practice, but does it work in theory.
     
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  18. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You aren't updating your opinions as players are having a much higher success rate in europe and MLS rules has made it a poorer option for Americans in the last 10 years. Unless a player is a top prospect AND in one of the few teams that will play them, MLS doesn't look like a a better option.

    I really don't follow the part about "three or four players in Top Leagues backed up by 20 Euro failures and MLS benchers." We already have Wood, Pulisic, Mckinnie, Brooks, Miazga and Yedlin or 6 guys playing in top 5 leagues with Steffen, CCV, Robinson, Hyndman, Adam's, Sargent, Amon, and Weah having a decent shot of getting there in the next couple of years. That is 5 guys signed by top 5 league teams who are on loan to a lower level or close to breaking through and 3 more who have rumors of interest. That is 14 guys before considering the possibility of many more guys abroad from 16 to 22 years old and potential dual nationals.

    What happened with the it depends on the individual and their situations? What is wrong with players that go abroad young and then come back to MLS. Besides painting a much darker picture of reality, you are trying create unnecessary "rules" for who should go where and when off of sweeping generalizations. People love to talk about how all of Europe isn't uniform, which it absolutely isn't, but the same goes for MLS. If you are a young player, your considerations for your career should vary quite a bit if you are an attacking player or a defender and if you are from say NY or Dallas vs LA or ATL. All thing equal I would want our players in top 5 leagues playing against the best players, but on an individual basis i want them picking what will help them reach their potential based on the specific option an available to them.
     
  19. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    McBride turned 32 during his first season with Fulham. Somehow I doubt that type of career path will be easy to emulate given the current realities of both the Premier League and MLS. And even if it was, most NT fans would be in pitchfork mode if players spent the entirety of their teens and twenties with only one loan to top level Europe.
     
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  20. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Well, Saief did nothing in attack but draw one foul and then hit a terrible free kick.

    Sorry, there is no such thing as someone who doesn't play defense in soccer. Your responsibility can be limited and everyone's is to some degree. But Saief obviously had responsibility for the Colombian winger when the fullback overlapped. He did less than nothing, he made the situation worse where the winger and the fullback ended up 1 v 2 on Robinson. Yes, Bradley and Brooks can cover, but then they are leaving space.

    I am down on Bradley and don't think he should be involved in his form at his age. But even I have to give some type of pass to the other players when Saief steps to somone, as he is supposed to do, but then doesn't get goal side then walks away leaving that man, usually with the ball, to be free onto the next layer of defense.

    For the first goal, Saief is on James, dances around him, and then just walks away. How are his teammates suppose to anticipate he would do something a U12 player wouldn't do?

    Luca De La Torre got beat against Ireland and it led to an overload against Robinson and a goal. Joe Corona went rogue against France and it led to an overload against Robinson and a goal. Saief did it repeatedly). Robinson has been 50% of our offense but we have learned that he can't defend all that well (no worse than Villafana though, imo) 1v1 and is not at all able to defend 1 v 2 or 1 v 3; especially against world class players.

    It is entirely possible that Adams fixes everything that happened in that game of he is in there instead of Bradley, as he did against Mexico. But, that doesn't absolve Saief.
     
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  21. smokarz

    smokarz Member+

    Aug 9, 2006
    Hartford, CT

    I agree with you, but that doesn't give him the ticket to just walk as a guy with the ball runs pass him.

    I remember Pulisic tracks all the way back into his half to defend and win the ball, even though he plays a winger.

    What I saw in Saief from that game, is a lack of character and a lack of effort in his commitment to defend or help defend.

    It doesn't matter if the coach tells you to stay high and wide. If a guy is steps away from you; you go and defend that guy, put in a tackle, hustle and force a turnover.
     
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  22. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    this is where soccer journalism would be nice, if it actually existed at a decent level in the USA....

    a reporter could merely ask Saeif himself what he was thinking on that play and what his defensive orders were for the game etc...and all of this speculation would be cleared up....

    but no...we need the superficial bombast of guys like lalas and twellman instead of pointed and tactic-related interviewing and analysis that would be much more fruitful and telling.
     
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  23. 6 ft. Leprechaun

    Dec 9, 2003
    Baltimore, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was thinking this very same thing. While Robinson didn't cover himself in glory, Saief was a turnstyle out there. Horrible defending.
     
  24. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    Too easy to forget the McBride career trajectory and his very late transformation into Bloody Nose McBride.
     
  25. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Not that it matters in the least, but it occurs to me that the closest player in the pool to Green is AronJo. I wonder if he'll ever get called in again?

    I think Mix is kind of similar, too. I always thought he was a guy that should be pushed forward in the formation, not back.
     

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