Post-match: USA v Mexico

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Susaeta, Sep 11, 2018.

  1. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I also feel like, if you are paying attention, Sarachan is already in the process of cycling back around to reintegrating the veterans. If he gets to October or November they are back involved. He put his foot halfway in the experimental pool for a few months and is already heading back to veteran pool safety.

    Put differently, he is already out of personnel ideas. I think the message of the past couple games should be, keep trying new players, that some of them are not as advertised. But the Mexico starters with Acosta and Lichaj and Co. signal me he thinks the answers are going backwards, not continuing to try new ideas and press forwards.

    And then the formations he is running out are negative, chase results approaches. Rather than have faith in the pool, and keep looking, he's gonna run out a 451 or 532 and trust the formation over the players.

    Just nothing about this screams he is the guy to really get this rolling for the next 4 years. To me he actually fights his own youth movement, and though the second half of Mexico suggests what we need to be competitive is more skill and offense, his first impulse is park the bus.

    I do think eventually you have to integrate the best new players with the best of the last cycle. To not do so is running out a suboptimal team. But I feel like he has spent half his time already perseverating in favor of marginal players from last cycle, Lichaj, Miazga. Individually some might have value but the grander scheme suggests he sees the error at the margins of the last team, and not in a general lack of talent, and that's a fairly substantial misreading. I think his impulses are conservative and not particularly attuned to the players at hand. The way he misread how to handle Mexico, and had to fix it with subs, that is not the way of the future. That is someone whose impulse is to fight the players and concepts that might actually change the outcome.
     
  2. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    I don't even know who we were missing that would make a difference besides Pulisic. Yedlin didn't play, so I can add him.

    Who else is significantly better than the guys that played? Kenny Saief will be in the mix. We'll get a few more years out of Jozy.

    But, that was really close to our A team. Like B+
     
  3. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Pretty true and that says a LOT about where our development has been for the last 10-15 years. That is nowhere. While there is reason to think that some uncalled players or some that were called but not or miss played could be better than who we played the fact is that there is not one US eligible player that is demonstrably better that what we played.

    Players ready to step in and play good (not great but just good) international soccer just are nearly unknown in the US player pool except for about three with maybe three more in the "almost there" stage. That means that the plan the USSF has put into place is pretty much a failure and all it has produced is a bunch of average or worse players. The only positive thing is that there are a few smart players that have developed outside of or in spite of the US's anti-development system.
     
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  4. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Pulisic is a tidy dribbler and he's pretty fast. But, he doesn't fake people out and doesn't create many shots for himself or others off his dribble. And, as I've said elsewhere, he dribbles into problems a lot. He will improve his game when he learns not to take on 2 defenders when there's no space behind them. I'll get slaughtered for this, but Pulisic is sort of like a really fast, really aggressive Nagbe, who brings that same intensity to the defensive side. He's super adept at advancing the ball.

    Picault: haven't seen him play.

    Gooch: is fast. He's not a particularly shifty or deceptive dribbler

    Haven't seen Amon, Mueller, El Homie, or Bwana.

    Nguyen: is adept at making space, usually to create a passing angle or a long shot. But, from what I've seen, he doesn't blow by, or really get behind/beat defenders on the dribble. He moves laterally to change the angles, which is an attribute I love. But, he doesn't really break down defenses dribbling.

    Saief: I really like, and I think is the closest of the guys you mentioned to being a guy who can break open defenses.

    Based on your pool, I would add Lletget and Gyau (if he is anything like the player he was pre-injury).

    None of these guys, imo, except maybe Saief, can consistently break down defenses on the dribble.
     
  5. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    #380 IndividualEleven, Sep 13, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
    Lleteget? He is 95th in MLS, in successful dribbles per match; his per-90 rate would boost him to 39th. To give him his due, he was 16th his first season in the league. That was before the foot injury, though.

    Last season, Pulisic was 4th in the B1.

    For the '17 season, which was the last Nguyen had a consistent attacking role, he was 12th.

    Taking into account he had a number of sub's appearances, Gooch's per-90 dribble rate would place him 5th in successful dribbles per appearance for the previous C'ship season.
     
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  6. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    LOL, you sure? Llanez looks good. Who else? Tecatito's overrated, Lozano's decent.

    To be fair, I don't follow Mexico too much, but what I do know is Mexican players/prospects have tended to stay home, while ours have been poached by European teams. Might not mean much today, but it might be a crucial distinction in a couple of years.
     
  7. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. There's a better argument to make. That being the fact that Trapp's teammates on the backline snuffed out most of the attacks both out wide and through the center. Trapp gave up the (soft) PK to Brazil. And, the fact that putting Adams/WM in the same spot can give you exactly the same, if not better passing (because we're giving Trapp a pass for not being able to pass the ball), and a better defensive efforts due to both being far more athletic.

    2. We have been hot garbage in the attack with Trapp in the center. What's more, we were significantly better when we allowed Adams (whom you inexplicably won't allow to be a 6) to come back and support Trapp, who was being smothered out of the game.
     
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  8. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    And Delgado. I thought Delgado was really good against Paraguay. I guess TFC wouldn't release him for the Spring games, so he has really fallen down the depth chart. McKennie has a lot of games coming in Germany this year, he doesn't need to do 150+ every break. Trapp shouldn't be inked in for 150+ either. Delgado, Canouse, and even some younger players who could use the Caps to help with a move like Durkin.

    Morales is not young, but he could definitely work in a high press system.
     
  9. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Such poor reasoning.

    Sarachan's so good, he was the second-choice interim manager...:rolleyes:

    May as well have Bigsoccer make the coaching decisions by committee. What do you have to lose???
     
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  10. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Not sure why you are so sure of that. McKennie will be playing CL league matches, maybe as early as next week. If we had to look for a Jones clone, why couldn't it be the box to box midfielder playing at Schalke right now? It is almost too perfect.

    Jones was a physical presence but he also had the attitude of, "I played in the CL last week and you played in the Costa Rican domestic league, get s**T out of here". The whole team had that. Then they were all team mates in MLS with the Central Americans and Caribbeaners; except for the Mexicans and Costa Ricans playing in the Champions League".
     
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  11. 6 ft. Leprechaun

    Dec 9, 2003
    Baltimore, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There will be players under every single coach that a bunch of fans will claim don't merit inclusion. It doesn't necessarily mean it's due to race.
     
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  12. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, when you've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail, I suppose.

    USSF's history of incompetence is more than enough evidence to the contrary of your self-admitted "extreme" conspiracy theory. Hanlon's Razor clearly applies here.

    Believe what you want though. The fact that the US team has historically been multiracial and multiethnic, and that most of the players starting are mixed/minorities, is simply a smokescreen to throw people off the scent! When all the evidence points to the contrary, you know you're on the right track!
     
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  13. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I think we will be adding back in some of the old guard whether the youth movement folks like it or not. Basically a Reverse Bradley. Bradley kept his spot for lack of adequate replacement(s). Not enough kids showed incredible every time out to just head that direction without fail.

    Some of the new kids will be starters right away. But some like Sargent are going to be brought along slower, and others who have been kind of meh will be put back into competition with other new options plus the old guard. No sane coach with 26 year old veteran options, so to speak, as well as other kids at the same spot, is going to get obsessively stuck on particular kids who have only been ok when trialed. That, to me, is kind of a last cycle problem, is not having accountability to performance, ie, buying the depth chart in your head rather than watching the field.

    And like I said yesterday, if we hire an outsider, all bets are off because there will be another few rounds, from scratch, of basic talent evaluation callups. The new coach will impose his intended formation, and test how players fit roles. Unlike Sarachan just throwing people on the field in a conservative formation and just let's see what happens. We're talking, is Trapp a 6, and where does he fit? It will be more like that process, and him versus other candidates, and less like this But He Is Supposed to be Good perseveration. I hope.

    That being said, I would agree that our performance this week has to be discounted for, that will be uncomfortably close to the team going forward, at least to start, and Mexico had few holdovers from the world cup team.
     
  14. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Maybe the team that finished the game. But Moore, Lichaj, CCV, Trapp, Acosta, Green, Zardes are not starters for us, or shouldn't be. Weah and Wood are debateable (Weah is a prospect besides Pulisic, along with Adams, McKennie, Robinson, Sargent). So, out of the players that played the bulk of the match, we had Steffan, Adams, Miazga, and maybe Weah as players I would put on Best Current 11.

    Especially considering Lichaj was almost worse than playing with 10 guys, and Acosta on the touchline as a winger was like playing with 9. We saw what Robinson for Lichaj did instantly.

    Nowhere in the neighborhood of our B+ team. Brazil was probably a B+ starting lineup. This was, "guys called into camp that should get minutes for travelling and putting up with our BS so stick them somewhere on the field" lineup.
     
  15. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Mexican player (who is shorter than Miazga) who bumped him got a yellow card.

    Hilarious that there was a literal "measuring" contest in the middle of a soccer game!:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
     
  16. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    With due respect, he doesn’t win balls for us. We cannot have a 6 who isn’t a hard nosed tackler given our CB pool (which is a strength of ours.
     
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  17. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    You vastly over-rate the rest of CONCACAF. Vastly.
     
  18. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #393 juvechelsea, Sep 13, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
    A Team

    F (4): Jozy Sargent Green Wood (but fading) (how about AJ?)
    M (8): Pulisic Weah Adams Saief Lletget (if healthy) Bradley McKennie Delgado
    D (8): Yedlin Robinson CCV EPB Parker Miazga Moore UnknownBackupLB???
    G (3): Steffen Guzan (reluctantly) Hamid (relunctantly) (need to try out some new GK options, not these guys, not Horvath, and by that I also don't mean they get called to carry water or clipboards and watch Steffen....like all the people I want to propose have seen a single second half sub maximum......how do you call them A team.....this is the downside to perseverance, is you don't even know if you like and can trust options 4, 5, 6......never even given a shot really......)

    If the cavalry is coming to bolster this, it's people younger than them, not older. Maybe someone hurt like Morris, though I half wonder if his future is wing sub.
     
  19. manfromgallifrey91

    Swansea City
    United States
    Jul 24, 2015
    Wyoming, USA
    Club:
    Southampton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And I bet you think Serena Willams was a victim of sexism too right? Will Trapp has chemistry with the players. I dont think he is international quality but Dave has repeatedly said he is. And if we get Berhalter better get used to seeing him.

    Besides Chemistry, he is a good passing ability and is in MLS to make a quick trip. The players like having him, he isn't physically gifted enough and plays a role similar to Bradley which are traits Dave and Bruce hold high. Dont take issues like this and conflate them to real racism like Warren Moon described it lessens the very real racism people suffer from and gives more ammunition to people who say the culture has become too PC. He was not there because he was white.
     
  20. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    #395 IndividualEleven, Sep 13, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
    6s at club level. Not all play the role consistently.

    Morales: Fortuna Dusseldorf
    Fernandes: San Jose
    Canouse: DC
    Durkin: DC
    Sands: NYC
    Trapp: Columbus
    Bradley: Toronto
    Caldwell: New England
    Ulloa: Dallas
    Kitchen: LAG
    Roldan: Seattle
    Adams: NY
    Davis: NY

    Of the multi-year starters, Morales, Adams, and Roldan have been the strongest.
    Fernandes and Canouse look promising.
    Bradley is only one who plays as a lone 6. Caldwell did for a time.
     
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  21. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    I think a team like the US with limited abilities both in attack and playing a possession game absolutely should be doubling down on the defensive side of things, including playing a stay-at-home midfielder. Sure, playing with a soft center may well be fine against the lesser teams in CONCACAF, but thinking our guys up front are going to win a run and gun game against top level opposition lacks any sense of the US's quality measured globally. I'm in the column of believing we need someone in the roll but being unsure if Trapp should be that guy. And, I'd personally prefer the person in that roll to be someone who plays it regularly, not one of our 2-way guys that we all just assume can play at a deeper roll seamlessly while they play a different spot regularly with their clubs.

    The position is highly tactical and based around positioning more than outright physicality or tackling ability. It's no surprise that the US has trouble filling this spot. Go back and watch some US games with the deep dual 8's under Bob Bradley with no one staying put and get a look at how much space pretty much every team opened up centrally as they entered the attacking third. Throwing Beckerman behind them allowed us to compete in 2014. We watched Bradley supposedly play the 6 this past cycle, but he went on walkabout too often and the old problems cropped up again because he was decent enough in all the tools for the job category (passing, tackling, etc.) but he lacked the positional awareness necessary. And once again, teams waltzed right up to the center of our defense far too often.

    So yeah, I'm not necessarily sold on Trapp and I certainly hope we have better options that emerge. But, we can't just abandon that area of the field because we don't have a good enough play there or just pretend that all that spots takes is a little hard work and some desire to tackle.
     
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  22. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member+

    Aug 1, 2014
    I agree with that. But it does seem odd that Trapp continues to be the captain when he is one of the weakest, if not the weakest performing player on the team game after game. And since most of the other players are not white, I could understand how some might conclude there is some racism aspect there. I personally do not think so, and I certainly hope that is not the case.
     
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  23. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorta is the wrong forum for it.

    It's a bad take to think that Trapp's starting because of closet racists. But no need to start talking about Neo-Marxists, 3rd wave feminism, etc.

    There be politics down that way.
     
  24. frankburgers

    frankburgers Member+

    May 31, 2016
    Lainez (not Llanez), corona, and chucky would all be in the american best 18. i would say, two would start ,depending on the set up.
     
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  25. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Trapp is a captain with his club team.
     

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