Serie A Guerin Sportivo 1980-1991 every game with player ratings

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Vegan10, Aug 2, 2018.

  1. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Gazzetta team averages through round 13

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  2. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Gazzetta team averages through round 14

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  3. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
  4. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Team of the week round 15

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  5. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Gazzetta round 15

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  6. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Gazzetta team of the week round 15

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  7. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Gazzetta team averages through round 15

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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    It seems that Krol's 1981 calendar year average from 4 sources (as published in Guerin Sportivo, which is one of the 4 sources) is 6.99, looking at the posts following round 12 of the opening two seasons as well as following the end of 1980/81.
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    And for Falcao the 1981 calendar year average from the 4 sources combined seems to be 6.95, very close to the Guerin Sportivo average alone.
     
  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    It's not possible to gauge Scirea's muti-source average for 1982 calendar year. Actually I think I also made a slight error with his calculations and his Guerin Sportivo average was slightly lower than I thought. Looking at things again, his 1981 average must be in the same ballpark at least, from Guerin Sportivo, but not up with Krol's from that 1981 year.

    The start of 82/83 was when Scirea was standing out the most in the ratings and rankings though, even if up among the top players by the end of 80/81 finally, and with a good overall average for 81/82.

    I'll look at Platini's multi-source average for 1983 when I am finishing looking at Maradona for 1985. The articles and votes regarding those two were interesting to see.

    Given I noticed Platini's 1983 average rating was actually up with the very high ones, that probably confirms his 1984 average won't have been. Junior for 1985, with Guerin Sportivo itself at least, might be dropping off enough at the end of the year to take him away from the very top averages for one year too I think.
     
  11. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yes, that was the consensus at the time, two of the universally regarded top players in the game.

    What does to this day baffle me a little bit was the reputation of Elkjear in that year. Here we have a guy that was very successful with Verona but wasn’t truly the standout guy that season in 1984-85, according to the ratings. Then we know that by the end of the year he’s ranked outside the top 10 in the award of Gazzetta dello Sport. Furthermore, we know that he’s not ranked in the top 3 in the Guerin Sportivo world player of the year. South American sources that I’ve come across don’t mention him as one of the top two in the world either.

    So it comes down to how and why was he chosen in the World Soccer magazine, Onze and in the final standings in the Ballon d’Or as a legitimate nominee that year ?

    I haven’t read those magazines in some time so I can’t remember well their arguments but I believe it was down to Verona’s win in Serie A. But if that’s the case I believe they put too much credit onto his shoulders that season.

    It is though perfectly fine to rank a player higher that one of the top two best in the world if there is significant merits on his behalf, but I’m not quite sure if that year qualified for that honor.
     
  12. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Before we move onto 1986, a last voting of the best foreigner of 1985, but this time according to 16 high profile league players.

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    Final results produced a tie. Platini and Maradona with 7 votes each. Rummenigge amd Souness obtained the rest.

    Gazzetta dello Sport
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think some of it can be Elkjaer would be seen as the spearhead (although not scoring at a big rate unlike with Denmark), star striker, well-known import and theoretical 'best player' of Verona. Some of it can be (not sure) that the average ratings under-value him a bit compared to team-mates. Some of it can be stand-out moments like his goal with his sock vs Juve! But a big part of it, also for Laudrup (though his Juve form, in the early games, plus Intercontinental Cup, would be persuasive to fans around the world too I think) can be the additional bonus of play and success with Denmark I think.

    The Ballon d'Or journalists couldn't select Maradona of course. It does seem that Onze and World Soccer voters (members of public) were generous to Preben, but I guess most didn't see a lot of Serie A, and as today I suppose roles in big team successes got rewarded well, sometimes under-valuing the effect of team-mates. World Soccer voters only voted for one player as winner and nothing else too - notable that Platini and Maradona didn't take such a big percentage whereas in the GDS votes they tended to, as expected (for Player of 1985, and best player in general) even if a good number of players were voted for too. Maybe World Soccer voters had Platini who was on average in better form previously, but had his big moments and team success (including I guess leading the league at the end of the calendar year?), and Maradona with the great run of individual form, and so sometimes looked elsewhere, but in those kinds of votes I guess often many other players will still get votes as 'alternative' choices even if the voter wouldn't necessarily see them as better than Platini or Maradona. As has been suggested before, it wasn't always easy to thrive and certainly score at a high rate in Serie A so Elkjaer's contributions were probably looked at in that context too. But yeah, Denmark vs USSR for example in the summer of 1985 can have an impact too I'm sure.
     
  14. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yeah, I remember that Denmark-USSR, it was in the era where the Danes were being regarded as the successor to the Dutch and their ‘total football’.

    In that game there was a South American broadcaster, Tony Tirado, that went as far as to say that Elkjear was one of the greatest players of all time (Tony was always an exaggerated personality). But a lot of it seemed like being a prisoner of the moment.

    In those days days, maybe one high profile game or certain standout moments in a year, prompted readers and journalists to choose a guy as a serious nominee.

    The World Soccer magazine also influenced their readers to choose amongst nominees based on the success of their respective teams and their recommendations. And although most readers probably didn’t even see much of Serie A, let alone read weekly articles of Italian football, they went along with the media’s recommendation. In hindsight it was a flawed and limited way of choosing a winner.
     
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  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #715 PuckVanHeel, Aug 20, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
    Elkjaer had also a terrific solo goal against Juventus, that made some fame. Didn't check his grade in that game. Had sometimes a sloppy ball control.

    Also: BdO, Onze or World Soccer isn't by definition 'worse' than Guerin Sportivo their own world players list and who they asked or did not ask.

    Yeah, Platini and Maradona were better players but Platini was of Italian origin and the links between Argentina and Italy don't need an elaboration - within the Italian parochial and familial culture that is a significant thing. That more than offsets the advantages Elkjaer might have.

    edit: Elkjaer was at the first half of 1985-86 also among the two/three highest scorers of the league, and without a single penalty.
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Maradona's 1985 Guerin Sportivo ratings continued....

    1985/86 (Start of season to December)
    Como (home) 6
    Pisa (away) 6.5
    Atalanta (home) 7.5
    Roma (home) 8
    Lecce (away) 6.5
    Fiorentina (away) 7.5
    Verona (home) 9
    Torino (away) 7
    Juventus (home) 7.5
    Inter (away) 7.5
    Milan (home) 6
    Sampdoria (away) 6
    Avellino (home) 6.5

    So, added to this, from my post #634....
    Making a start for Maradona (1985) by listing his GS grades from 84/85 (January to end of season)
    Udinese (home) 7
    Fiorentina (away) 9
    Verona (home) 7.5
    Sampdoria (away) 7.5
    Torino (home) 6
    Como (away) 7
    Lazio (home) 9
    Milan (away) 8
    Atalanta (home) 7
    Avellino (away) 6.5
    Ascoli (home) 7
    Cremonese (away) 7.5
    Inter (home) 8
    Roma (away) 8
    Juventus (home) 6
    Udinese (away) 7.5
    Fiorentina (home) 7

    = 7.23

    So that is the highest so far calculated from Guerin Sportivo over a calendar year, and quite a bit higher than his own overall 1984/85 season averages even too.

    I haven't got the info for more sources (I still plan to look at them for Platini in 1983 though), but it definitely seems the Guerin Sportivo average will be a bit higher for Maradona anyway, as it seems like it was for Krol in 1981 (nearest challenger with Guerin Sportivo).
     
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  17. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Sorry, I am a bit confused by now. Is that GS' own ratings or an average of the ratings from different sources provided by GS?
     
  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Those numbers and the calculated average all relate to Guerin Sportivo's own ratings.

    The average from different sources hasn't been posted for mid 85/86 yet and maybe Vegan doesn't even have it, especially if it wasn't published in some issues. I think it'd work out a bit lower than with Guerin Sportivo alone though. No reason they should have a pro-Napoli bias for Krol and then Maradona, but they do seem to be rating those two, in their best years, the highest (I spotted a few instances of well-rated performances in 85/86 where GDS rated Maradona half a point lower than GS for example too but didn't look at them all closely).
     
  19. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Ok, thanks
     
  20. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Round 13 (match which was postponed and played at end of December)

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  21. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Top average 11 through 15 rounds (GS)

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  22. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Gazzetta round 13 postponed match

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  23. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Corriere dello Sport round 13 postponed match

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  24. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I have some months of Corriere dello Sport, so I’ll add them too. This newspaper is from Roma and one of the top 3 newspapers in the country.
     
  25. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    And that last goal from Platini put him ahead of Maradona as top scorer of the calendar year

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