Lower the Number of International Slots in MLS

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by adam tash, May 9, 2018.

  1. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    okay...can you provide any numbers as to how much playing time youth USMNT players get in MLS? I would guess it is trending down but dont have any numbers.
     
  2. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. if you break it down by position....the vast vast majority of strikers/attackers etc are foreign. in that LAFC-Portland game how many of the non defensive players were even us-eligible? any? i think none....feilhaber/nguyen were playing as dmids so not sure they count. the usmnt has never had a problem with producing defenders and GK...so MLS can get as pretty as it wants and if US-eligible players are only playing d and GK nothing will change. across the league it is the same story. 3 to 6 DP level salaries means 3-6 attackers blocking any americans from developing in attacking positions in MLS.

    2. MLS doesnt need to be MONEY vs Developing Americans...the two can and should go hand in hand. with the USMNT out of the world cup....fox must give a lot of money back to advertisers... so USMNT success equals better business for MLS/US SOCCER (let's face it they are one and the same for all intents and purposes). the better the USMNT gets the more prestige MLS will have and it will raise the value of MLS....can you imagine the USMNT winning the world cup and what that might do for MLS??? every critic of MLS will instantly disappear. to me, while it might not be directly tieable to the bottomline of MLS...developing americans is one of the best business decisions MLS can make.

    I just dont see developing american talent as a threat to quality of play....i think there are creative ways to keep the quality of play a priority and develop as many americans as possible, and certainly there is the possibitly of doing a better job of americans without impacting quality of play....many of the top teams in MLS play a lot of americans. (many also play almost none but that doesnt mean playing americans and keeping quality of play high is impossible).

    3. again i dont think having all or none i.e. americans is the issue. its not a choice of no americans and pretty or all americans and sloppy....there is a middle ground....many shades of grey...if you will.....i'm just saying to be a bit more towards the one end of the spectrum (where possible)...not to the extremes.

    4. to me player development is about stages. there are certain stages players have to meet to continue to progress....like a video game. if they are stuck on level 2.....they need to be able to play level 3. eventually they will be able to beat the game if they are allowed to keep progressing.....

    my take is that once players reach a certain point they are plateuing due to lack of opportunity not skill or quality.....

    read what marsch says about miazga:

    “I felt strongly that Matt just needed to be challenged in a big way,” Marsch, now an assistant coach for German Bundesliga side RB Leipzig, said. “There was a lot of change in the organization, an emphasis away from the superstar player and more toward developing young players. He was never really entrusted to do the job. It was mostly because it was a team of veterans and a team of very established players.

    “In the previous teams, the young guys were treated like the guys who carried the bags and they were the butt of the jokes, but they weren't really engaged as a real part of the team. I told him for that mentality and shift to change, it was going to be on his shoulders and even though he was 19 and it wasn't fair for to demand that he become a man now, it’s the reality of this business. The best young players, they grow up quickly.”

    for a player like miazga he could easily still be on an MLS bench somewhere...if not for a coach like Marsch's vision. he has progressed and become a lot better than he was when he was first playing for RBNy....b/c of the steps he has gone through....it wouldnt have just happened on his own if he had stayed in MLS! or even worse if he had been on an MLS team that doesnt play young players....

    or look at yedlin and how he has progressed through all the different rungs of development...he wasnt nearly the player he is now when he first started and GOT THE CHANCE TO PLAY. yes he earned it...but he easily couldve been benched and been given another year of seasoning and missed going to WC 2014...he barely made it....which was a SPRINGBOARD to further development....he would still be in MLS if things hadnt worked out perfectly for him i.e. timing of playing time...despite being just as talented even if he didnt play in WC 2014.

    so i just question the static view of talent...all players can become many different levels of player based on opportunity and it isnt always about innate skill...in fact it isnt even mostly about that, imo.

    5. its funny you use colorado as an example of a sloppy team..their foreign coach has played mostly foreigners this season and they have been sub-par.

    6. in conclusion, i agree 100% that more average americans will not help the USMNT...and i dont think playing time shouldnt be merit based or earned....my unscientific opinion is that more and more players who could possibly become something are "dying on the vine" in MLS without ever getting the OPPORTUNITY to play.....thus not proving that they werent good enough but merely that MLS is not giving them the chances it once did.....the chances that some players will inevitably take and make something of themselves if given the OPPORTUNITY.

    i look at a player like tommy thompson and he hasnt been getting any minutes this season but he made some flashes and seemed to be improving in san jose last year....i dont want to make this about him but its players like him who have his profile that i want to see play in MLS.....he only has 1 start in MLS this year. for what? do we really need to see a foreign no-name player playing over him? is whoever is getting all of his potential minutes really making so much of a difference for SJ? would him playing truly ruin the quality of SJ? for real? they arent winning anything without him.....but next season if he is still in MLS he will be 23....the players like him need playing time as soon as possible not when they are 23/24 after years of being a bench warmer......in the end....that doesnt turn out well for ANYONE....

    i disagree that a player who washes out of an MLS team is automatically not good enough....look at a player like zardes and see how much the situation he is in effects his production....with donovan and keane he was great....without them bad. with schmid bad, with berrhalter good.....by extension, how many other americans were put in bad positions to succeed but didnt have the cache or buzz that zardes did to give him another chance???

    i just feel that MLS is more wasteful than it needs to be with american talent.

    and one way to help overcome that wastefulness would be to limit the # of intl slots per team....by 1....not a drastic change by any means.
     
  3. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    good well maybe NYRB, SKC's etc success have shown that playing young domestic players is far from career suicide for MLS coaches...i still think more can be done.
     
  4. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    FFS, from your post: " I told him for that mentality and shift to change, it was going to be on his shoulders and even though he was 19 and it wasn't fair for to demand that he become a man now, it’s the reality of this business. The best young players, they grow up quickly.”
    Marsch was not providing evidence for your case, but against it. Football isn't fair. MLS is no different than any other league. Increase the overall talent level and the best young players will rise to the challenge. As for the others, why would the USMNT care?
    But, once again, it is not the job of MLS to build the USMNT. It is not and should not be their job.. Your "they're the same thing" ignores reality. They are not.
     
    jaykoz3 repped this.
  5. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #255 Elninho, Jul 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
    Have you been following the Quakes? I pointed out very early in this thread that Thompson hasn't been playing much because he was injured for most of the first two months of the season. Even after returning: it's common for players returning from a long injury layoff to play limited minutes for several more weeks.

    Not making this all about Tommy Thompson, but when you keep bringing up players who supposedly fit your narrative, and a cursory Google search would tell you exactly why they don't, it really doesn't look good. So far we've heard about Alphonso Davies "rotting on the bench" (while playing the second-most minutes of any outfield player at his club), Jason Johnson being great in his prior stint in MLS (anyone who watched him will tell you he wasn't), and Tommy Thompson being not playing enough this season (while injured for two months).
     
    jaykoz3, JasonMa and mschofield repped this.
  6. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Matt Doyle just did. Approximately doubling the minutes played by U-20 domestic players is "trending down" now?
     
    JasonMa and mschofield repped this.
  7. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Just a quick point: If we look at J Lindsey with SKC this year, that's how the best young players break through. They aren't coddled, and they don't get into the lineup for development reasons. They work hard and when an opening comes, they seize it. SKC had a strong MLS left back in Seth Sinovic, a solid and maybe better backup in Jimmy Medranda and a very solid pro from the Barca system in Lobato.
    Lindsey was showing well in USL but with SKC was backing up Zusi on the right, and unseating him is a very tough ask as he's central to everything SKC do. So Seth, Medranda and Lobato all go down injured and there's a lineup hole. Vermes takes a chance on the 18 year old, and Lindsey does well, grows into it, and is right now very hard to replace in the lineup. He will play the rest of this season because he's earned the spot, and he's earned it against some very tough competition. That's how it works and should work in sports. You don't get to tie the champ and come away with the crown, you have to beat him and really, you have to knock him out.
    Lindsey wouldn't now be on the verge of being a fixture if he hadn't seized the opportunity when presented. For comparison, look at EPB. When he got his early chances he clearly was not ready, looked horrible, and rightly returned to the back of the bench when players returned (okay, two yellows in his first start so no option of staying in the lineup).
     
    jaykoz3 and Gamecock14 repped this.
  8. Gamecock14

    Gamecock14 Member+

    May 27, 2010
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    This is the NT fan paradox. Players should go to Europe because they have to compete daily for their spot. When the same thing happens in MLS, the players should automatically get a spot because of "talent".
     
    mschofield, jaykoz3, KCbus and 2 others repped this.
  9. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You left out the team contributing most of those minutes..........Philly..........Who also happens to have 4 players in the Home Grown game as well.
     
    JasonMa and mschofield repped this.
  10. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    you are over the line...and cant see how closed minded you are.

    FFS???

    okay so you know how to use acronyms big deal...

    the first part of marsch's quote basically says that younger players werent even given any chance to play...my whole point.

    marsch and rbny made an INTERVENTION against the status quo of UNFAIRNESS that was keeping players like miazga in the shadows....how you cant see that from his quote makes me question your reading skills.

    im not saying mLS should be a charity league for americans...but given that it is INDEED an american soccer league that the "tie" should go to the american.

    you think brazilian, spanish, portuguese italian teams etc...dont have a bias for domestic players....if so, you are full of it!!!

    you think the tie should go to the foreigner? why? exactly......

    sinovic, medranda lobato are not good enough to keep a talented prospect off the field, imo...they are replacement level mls players.....a dime a dozen.

    talented us players are a precious, finite commodity and should be treated as such....not GIVEN playing time...but when they are good enough for MLS....MLS should play them. period.
     
  11. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Miazga did develop and did get substantial playing time at NYRB, and he did so while playing under Marsch. In fact, Marsch became the manager in 2015 and Miazga played consistently after he arrived. Marsch was clearly not saying what you think he was saying. at least not about post 2015 NYRB. It is healthy for a young player to fight his way onto the field, and the young player in every league on earth has to prove himself better than the vet.
    You've been shown, time and again, that the Portuguese, spanish and Italian and etc leagues field more international players than MLS. It isn't close.
    You've also insisted that MLS clubs do not play young US players, and been shown this is not the case. You have no evidence of this beyond anecdotal evidence that is always mis or over stated. Yet you keep saying it. It is not true.
    Also, you have no idea what you're talking about if you're dismissing Sinovic. Club legend. Why should a very solid pro not be able to keep an undeveloped kid off the field? The tie should go to the veteran over the kid, because in a tie experience does matter and will make a difference. Medranda is a fan favorite, as well.
    The case with Lindsey argues against your approach. Make the best players fight their way through the strongest roster possible. He did, power to him.
    Why you want weak, coddled players in the US pool, I will never understand.
     
  12. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, that's not what Marsch said. RB GMBH made an organizational decision that they were moving away from purchasing high priced players. They were going to move to a player development model focused on home grown academy players, along with finding low cost talented players that fit their style of play (that all of their teams play).

    This had NOTHING to do with unfairness or the status quo as you see it.

    Again, you are making assumptions to fir your narrative. You completely ignore facts that contradict or disprove your personal views on these matters. You also don't do any research to support your claims.



    For the most part the MLS section of BS is where the adults are. This isn't the national team threads. You need to bring your A-Game, and support your claims with facts. You bring a lot of sound and fury, but it signifies nothing.

    Also, only 5 teenagers made 20 or more appearances in the Bundesliga last season...........TWO of them were American............
     
    mschofield and JasonMa repped this.
  13. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No one's said that. The tie goes to the incumbent. That's true in virtually all teams, in all sports, everywhere. Jaylin Lindsey is now the incumbent, so the ties are now going to the young American.

    By the way, Sinovic isn't a foreigner, he's a Kansas City native! And he's an example of an unheralded player becoming a regular starter fairly recently. He was drafted in the second round in 2010, cut by New England after one season, and had an unsuccessful trial with RSL before signing with Kansas City in the middle of the 2011 season and almost immediately becoming a starter there. These are things you keep claiming doesn't happen in MLS. Good players do in fact end up on a team that will play them, and it doesn't even take that long. One season on the bench is not career-ruining.
     
    mschofield and jaykoz3 repped this.
  14. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Right now, that entire defense goes against his narrative. Five US elegible players, all of whom somehow made it despite "the man" trying to keep them down. Besler and Zusi, draft picks who made it into the starting lineup in pretty short order (though Zusi as wide attacking player, which of course does not happen. Both advanced to the nats, and both were fine nats players. Opara, who struggled with injuries, but finally got healthy long enough to earn a nats call up. Melia, who survived in the league despite his club going under, and found a home, somehow I thought he'd get a callup or two, And then Sinovic, who really deserved a camp cupcake, and i think he got one, but never a game, is now fighting with Lindsey, who looks quite good and might someday be a legit star in MLS.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  15. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #265 adam tash, Jul 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
    MLS gets to pick and choose to be single entity when it wants to and gets to be independent clubs when it wants to...often at the expense of individual players.

    SKC and RBNy are 2 of the few teams in MLS who have a good track record of playing and developing americans. i've already acknoweldged that. (even that said, though, none of the USMNT players who have stayed with SKC and RBNY without leaving MLS have become true difference makers at the international level...so from a USMNT persepctive SKC and RBNY have done much better than most MLS clubs but still havent really done anything to raise the level of the USMNT).

    but my beef is how MLS as a whole treats the US player pool as a whole...as I feel the entrire league is wasteful of american talent....so drilling down on how SKC treats americans doesnt really address what i'm getting at.

    when a player like EPB - MVP of the concacaf u20 tourney struggles for minutes in MLS and with SKC...something is wrong with that, imo.

    what wouldve happened if SKC had loaned EPB to RBNY when he was stuck on SKC's bench? would it have harmed MLS quality of play?? hell no. it wouldve improved it. but SKC would rather keep RBNY weak and prevent one of their players from developing b/c of the competitive implications.

    under current rules, if an MLS team has a good young player they dont have a spot on the field for....a player that club KNOWS is good enough for MLS....it is in that clubs benefit to NOT LOAN or trade that player...which is bad for development. MLS clubs prefer to let polayers rot on their benches than give them to a team that could beat them. Friedel said Nguyen wasnt good enough to play for NEREVS...but he also said he would not trade him to an eastern conference team lol....


    if a player like epb or lindsey is good enough to play in MLS but happens BY CHANCE to be behind strong players at the club they are FORCED to be under control of....it doesnt benefit them if they dont play!

    if another MLS team would play a miles robinson starters minutes but ATL won't....I will never believe that it is beneficial for Miles robinson to stay on the bench and fight to play for ATL for multipile bench seasons....when he could be starting for another MLS team.

    starting at 21 or fianlly starting at 24 means that player's cieling is irrevocably different.

    The ultimate hypocrisy boils down to this: MLS gets to treat all players as it wants as a group for contract purposes/allocation rules....but then MLS also wants its individual clubs to have total control over their players' rights.

    If MLS gets to treat HG and drafted players as a collective....well then MLS has a duty to do right by the COLLECTIVE ENTIRE POOL....not just bolster club rights over development.
     
    STR1 repped this.
  16. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Once players have signed contracts, anywhere on Earth, they face the same things you are questioning.
    MLS actually gives young players enormous access to playing time compared to other leagues. Most clubs have USL sides, and that is playing time with a professional club, that's development. That's a positive.
    You're questioning Freidels' treatment of Nguyen, but you do realize Freidel learned his club management in europe, right? The english even have a term for what he did with Lee, it's called garden leave. Under contract, but not going anywhere. It's that common.
    Every club, everywhere, has a dozen or so players who would fit your criteria, players who in a vacuum are probably good enough to see a bit more of the field, but not quite at the standard of those ahead of them. They get out of this by working hard in training. Training is far and away the most important part of a player's development. You understand this, don't you? It's only after mastering the training ground that the best players made gameday squads and starting 11s.
    You realize there are full squads of full internationals who don't even suit up for the big clubs that hold their contracts in the major leagues, right? FFP was an attempt to spread great players around, but it has in no way made other leagues anywhere close to as even from top to bottom as MLS.
    And of course players find benefit from signing contracts with teams for whom they are not good enough to play. Players are not idiots, they realize this is possible, They sign contracts to get paid, that is the point of being a professional. It is far more the point of being a professional that playing for a national team.
    You seem to think that contracts that pay players in exchange the right to play them aren't a fair way of doing business, but I hope you understand that it is the only way of doing business in professional soccer.
     
  17. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    James Rodriguez at Real Madrid comes to mind and Riyad Mahrez is going from being an absolute superstar on a league winning team to being lucky to get playing time during cup matches.

    To think that MLS is nefariously locking these potential talents up shows a complete ignorance of how professional soccer works everywhere!
     
    mschofield, jaykoz3 and JasonMa repped this.
  18. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How many true difference-makers at the international level has the USMNT ever had? That's where the goalposts get extremely easy to move. It's not as if MLS was ever producing a ton of them before, let alone developing them from unheralded rookies.

    For that matter, anywhere in the world, you'd be hard pressed to find more than one or two starters on any national team who weren't one of that country's top 18-year-olds. Of course, it doesn't go the other way, because a senior national team typically contains players from 6-8 cycles of youth national teams.
     
    jaykoz3 and mschofield repped this.
  19. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    [
    Exactly.
    And, if must be said, that it shows a complete lack of understanding of what's going on in MLS today. The arguments are basically cut and paste from a decade ago.
    Also, surprisingly as the OP appears to be a nats fan, it shows a complete lack of understanding of how national programs operate.
     
    jaykoz3, JasonMa and Expansion Franchise repped this.
  20. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  21. GrimmFreak

    GrimmFreak New Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Jul 2, 2018
    Okay, I've been away for awhile and have missed a bit but after skimming what I missed I have this to say.

    I never said US born players are playing forward minutes on top MLS team, nor should they. I'm not a big 'competition is good for you' guy, but in this case, it is. If US born players want to play big minutes in big positions (and some are, look at Seattle Sounders with Wil Bruin and Jordan Morris getting shots in major roles) they need to earn them. If there is a lack of US born players up front it needs to be on the Academies and youth leagues (mostly) to develop that talent.

    Also, how many top flight players start out at forward? Not many. You start out playing low minutes at forward or in minor games or at midfield until you prove yourself capable of playing crucial minutes at forward (last I checked Pulisic is still at midfield for Dortmouth). A big part of my point of my last post was about the US needing better, not more players, if US born players play well they will get their shots (see Seattle Sounders) if they don't and feel they deserve it, they can go to other teams where they have better opportunities (San Jose or Colorado come to mind after seeing the horrible play they displayed about a year ago).

    Also, the money part of what I said was meant as a adjunct to the rest but regardless it is a fact that, like it or not, money is at the forefront of what drives a hell of a lot of players.

    Finally, if US lesser us born players want bigger minutes to develop their skills they can play in any of a dozen other leagues around the world that are behind the MLS in skill, or if they want to stay at home, start out in the USL FC Cincinnati showed last year that the talent gap is not always huge and I'm fairly certain the league has a lot more US born players than MLS. Bottom line is that no matter where you are in the world, if you want to be at the top of your sport or field you need to outshine those above you, it's hard, it's not always fair but it's the world we live in.
     
    mschofield repped this.
  22. GrimmFreak

    GrimmFreak New Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Jul 2, 2018
    Oh, a good on MLS Academy programs, NYRB under 14s are in the semifinals of the International Champions Cup against Bayern Munich on ESPN NEWS right now!
     
  23. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Yeah, BMunch has recently announced a new youth movement at the club. There are a lot of very talented German players, and they will bring those in. but they're also bringing in a ton of non-Germans; including looking at at least four MLS players. They're looking for the best players, not the best German players, because that's the freedom clubs have. Only the trully elite will actually ever see the field in a first team game, of course, and BMunch will continue to bring in superstars and those will be huge competition for anyone wanting to play.
    BTW Carleton got a start for Atl and played well for 65 minutes, He was completely psyched about that afterwards. It meant a lot to him to have earned playing time on a very talented squad, apparently.
     
  24. GrimmFreak

    GrimmFreak New Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Jul 2, 2018
    at the very least any MLS players who go to will benefit from the opportunity to train with a top flight program, even if they don't stick with the team.

    Thanks for the info, this is exactly what I'm talking about, leagues around the world compete for talent, top MLS players get taken by better leagues all the time and this makes room for US based players to compete for those spots against all comers, US and international. Is the system perfect, no, is it about as good as any sport, yes. Look at other sports one or two leagues are WAY better than anyone else. In hockey you have the NHL and the KHL in Russia, the NHL is well in the lead with the KHL trying to catch up, it is highly unusual for players outside of these two leagues to be serious international players so a lot of national teams struggle to be relevant while 5 or 6 take the lions share of trophies.

    In summation, while FIFA and the leagues are far from perfect and we should never stop asking for better I do think the system is a lot better than what is in place for most other sports.
     
  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sweat has been starting ahead of Matarrita even when the Matarrita has been fit. Matarrita started on Saturday after a ridiculously arduous road trip.
     

Share This Page