Lower the Number of International Slots in MLS

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by adam tash, May 9, 2018.

  1. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Playing time for Americans in MLS is plummeting and trending downwards, especially for field players (at least +90% of starting GK are American in 2018...but then again goals per game is at an all-time high, so maybe that is an indictment, idk)....nevertheless, GK is the one position where the USMNT has never needed help.

    Time to cut down on the # of International slots per team. Not drastically but by 1 or maybe 2. Or change the whole green card exemption thing as a way around using an international slot....maybe count players with green cards as internationals?

    Whatever the case, MLS needs to start protecting domestic players a little more...like almost every other league in the world does.

    At this point its basically better to be a foreign player than domestic in MLS 2018 (more freedom of movement, more choice about team, better salaries etc)..which is insane.

    How many other decent soccer leagues out there do a worse job of protecting domestic talent than this current version of MLS?? not many.

    This isn't a talent issue. This is just a rules issue. And a matter of the single-entity that is MLS/USMNT/SUM protecting the sport in this country. They have a stranglehold on the sport - time to take responsibility for it.
     
  2. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The green card part can't be changed. US labor laws prohibit treating green card holders differently from US citizens. I do agree that 8 international slots may be a little excessive, especially given the rules on green cards.

    That said, I don't understand how you can possibly conclude that foreign players have "more freedom of movement" than domestic players. That simply isn't true. The same rules apply to both. This discussion has been had before. In any club, only the best or most marketable players have the leverage to force their way out, and that applies to foreign as well as domestic players. Didn't Lee Nguyen just force his way out of New England?
     
  3. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS can make whatever rules it wants and sign whatever players it wants. it's a total monopoly on the sport in the USA.

    companies can choose to hire whoever they want. if not, then why do job applications ask for my nationality and if i need work sponsorship?

    bottomline: if there is a limit of 8 international slots per team, it can be 20 or it can be ZERO...it's totally up to MLS.

    i.e. foreign vs domestic.....bottomline: all things being equal, I would rather be a foreign player in MLS right now than a domestic. Wouldn't you? foreign players can choose what city they play in...domestics can't...as just one reason for my preference.
     
  4. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most foreign players can't. About a half-dozen of the most marketable can. So can USMNT veterans like Dempsey, Bradley, and Altidore... and evidently even USMNT fringe players like Nguyen can force a trade. For that matter, even Perry Kitchen got his choice of team.

    You're vastly overestimating the amount of freedom of movement foreign players have, both in MLS and in other countries.
     
    Ismitje repped this.
  5. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    Seems someone doesn't understand the difference between a green card and other work visas.
     
    xtomx, onefineesq and JasonMa repped this.
  6. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also seems that this someone also hasn't realized that most MLS teams start 5 or more american players too. Where's the data proving his claim of a "Downward Trend?"
     
  7. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is literally the only type of question US employment law allows them to ask about their national origin. Companies can choose to hire, or not, employees that require a visa/sponsorship. Beyond that they can’t choose to hire, or not, a green card holder or a refugee or any other category unless the role their hiring has a material component that requires a more specific category which 99% of jobs do not.

    Technically it’s the USSF and not MLS that set the international level rule, but to your point, there’s enough overlap between the two groups that if MLS wanted it changed it would probably be changed.

    To our point about internationals choosing where they play, how’s that working out for Stefan Aigner?
     
    xtomx and mschofield repped this.
  8. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    it's so odd to me that you people never want MLS to change anything it does.

    your mentality is that of: never question anything MLS does. do any of you work for MLS?

    instead of talk about the idea: lower the # of international slots....it's only: pick apart details of what i say and derail the focus of the thread....smh
     
  9. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We're not against change. We're against opinions not based on fact. We're against "throwing shit against the wall" and seeing if it sticks.

    Provide real proof for your opening statement. Show that there IS in fact a downward trend. You're proposing changes/solutions that are looking for a problem at this juncture.
     
    jayd8888, aztec21bas, JasonMa and 3 others repped this.
  10. Gamecock14

    Gamecock14 Member+

    May 27, 2010
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    There is a downward trend in percentage going from ~39% to 34% over the last few years. Though, there has been rapid expansion with MLS and the level of play in MLS has increased which usually does not happen in expansion unless you add more outside talent.

    BTW - 39% of players of 20 teams = 85.6 players
    34% of players of 23 teams = 86.0 players

    That is essentially what happened after LAFC, Atlanta, and Minnesota joined in the last three years.
     
    Ismitje, jayd8888 and jaykoz3 repped this.
  11. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    on top of that, when 20 out of 22 starting GK are american it really skews the % of players to seem higher than it is i.e. field players.

    take out the GK and its only 60 something field players (i'm pretty sure there were at least 60 stating field players who were us-eligible in the 90's in MLS when there were only 10 teams!)...which is less than 3 american starters per team....under 30% of field players are americans. what's really important is field players not % of overall players. you cant make a world cup with 10 good/mediocre GK.

    digging deeper, there's only 2 out of the top 25 players in assists so far that are us-eligible so far this season, with klesjtan the #1 american in 15th place on the assists chart. onlt 3 of the top 25 golascorers so far this season are us-eligible. these are historical lows.

    the american players are overwhelmingly being asked to play defensive or support positions, if they are even allowed on the field at all. it's almost as if the roster builders of MLS now have a distinct disdain for american players, imo..."yeah if we have to have em, let play GK and defense, i guess"

    the idea that there isnt a downward trend in american players in MLS is laughable.
     
  12. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #12 Elninho, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
    You're going on the first two months of the season, at a time when one of the best American attacking players in the league was forcing his way out of New England by refusing to play, and an unusual percentage of the league's best American attackers have been injured while the foreign stars have mostly escaped the injury bug. The numbers will change before the end of the season.

    Top US-eligible goalscorers in 2017:

    C.J. Sapong
    Jozy Altidore - injured most of 2018
    Christian Ramirez - playing with injuries in 2018
    Chris Wondolowski
    Clint Dempsey
    Lee Nguyen - refused to play for New England prior to trade to LAFC

    And that doesn't even include USMNT forward Jordan Morris, who has been injured for all of 2018, or Kellyn Acosta, who was given the #10 role for Dallas a number of times in 2017 and has missed almost all of 2018. It also doesn't account for the fact that Michael Bradley (still a big contributor to the attack) is playing center back right now because Toronto FC lost their top four center backs to injury during their CCL run! (By the way, Toronto has had five lock starters from 2017 injured for most of the 2018 season so far, and four of them are US-eligible.)

    Oh, one more thing: Toronto, Seattle, and NYRB all have Americans who are regular starters in attacking positions, and those players, even when healthy, have had their league minutes drastically reduced by squad rotation while their clubs were playing them in the CCL.
     
    jaykoz3 and JasonMa repped this.
  13. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    okay...a lot of previously good us-eligible players have been dealing with a lot of injuries early in 2018.

    i dont think the #'s will change much by the end of the year. there has been a shift in how MLS teams are building their rosters...a shift away from american attackers.

    MLS teams are buying foreign players for the front 6 and using americans for defense and GK....young american attackers are dying on the vine....most of the guys you listed are already done with the USMNT. a few teams tfc seattle and nyrb are exceptions to the much larger rule that is currently in place.

    all i'm saying is cut down 1 or 2 international roster spots per team...it is not really a drastic move but one that is needed. teams shouldnt be able to field entire lineups of foreign players, imo....if we care about the USMNT, that is.

    do you really think eliminating 1 international spot per team would have a negative impact on MLS???! I don't. it would just mean 23 more american starters....there are easily 23 american becnh players right now in MLS that could be starters in MLS....no one would notice anything in terms of quality of play if MLS teams all lost 1 international roster slot each. its a no-brainer to me.....especially as a USMNT fan....which most of you identify as....(which i dont understand, by the way)

    clearly the USMNT is not where it should be....SOMETHING needs to change. since the USMNT missed the WC what has MLS or SUM or USSF done to address it? nothing! not one thing!!! and you guys supposed USMNT fans don't want more americans on the field in MLS...i dont get it.
     
  14. Gamecock14

    Gamecock14 Member+

    May 27, 2010
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    If you include GKs, the number is closer to 41%, not 34%. You don't need to make stuff up to look catastrophic to try and make a point.

    The number should be higher, but the current count only includes players with American Passports who choose to play for the US. It doesn't include players like Enzo Martinez, Victor Ulloa, Arturo Alvarez, AJ De LaGarza, Baggio Husidic, Ariel Lassiter, Steven Beitashour, Luis Silva, Roger Espinoza, Kei Kamara, Tony Tchani, Richard Sachez, Zach Herivaux, Diego Fagundez, Rodney Wallace, Derrick Etienne, Justin Meram, and Warren Creavalle who largely developed in the US and either chose to represent another country or didn't have citizenship at the when they decided to choose the country they did. I probably missed another 4-5 players. Of the list, 11 start often, 1 is out injured but was a starter prior to injury, and 3 come off the bench. That's another 4-6%.

    The list also doesn't include people who came to the US in high school / college like Callum Mallace, Ema Boateng, Lawrence Olum etc.

    In a league that is rapidly expanding which dilutes talent on teams, they need to get players from outside to maintain the level.
     
    Ismitje, mschofield and jaykoz3 repped this.
  15. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    @Elninho @jaykoz3 @Gamecock14 @JasonMa '

    So lemme get this straight: all of you are indeed USMNT fans of MLS?

    And all of you think nothing needs to be done to get more playing time for Americans in MLS? You guys think playing time will sort itself out on its own? for real??

    All of you think that lowering the # of international slots in MLS by even just 1 or maybe 2 slots per team would be a bad idea for USMNT/MLS/American players in MLS?

    If you guys were not fans of USMNT I could totally understand where you are coming from. if you guys liked costa rica NT or mexico NT or some other NT I would totally get where you guys are at...but as USMNT fans im befuddled.

    Can any of you tell me why 7 international slots per team would make a worse MLS than 8? you guys think MLS has found the perfect balance as is....and eliminating 1 intl slot would ruin a perfect product??!
     
  16. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why do you assume I’m against lowering the international slots? I’m against doing it on the basis of inaccurate data and a misunderstanding of the rules. I’m not against the idea, if the data backs up the idea that it can be done without a significant impact on the league’s success.
     
    jayd8888, mschofield, Elninho and 2 others repped this.
  17. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Forgive me if I'm wrong, because I'm making a couple of assumptions based on what I remember of your posting history. But you strike me as someone who's a USMNT fan BEFORE you're an MLS fan. And you strike me as someone who has a lot of quibbles with the way MLS handles itself.

    But this is an MLS forum. Which means the people posting here are supporters of clubs and the league as a whole. So unlike people in the USA: Men forum, most people here don't necessarily believe that it's MLS' first and greatest responsibility to do what benefits the national team. Its responsibility is to run a competent, stable, competitive league that sells tickets and gets on TV. If having more foreign-born players is better, then that's what they should do. (I'm not stating that to be true, I'm just saying "if".)

    As to the question... I'm not sold that this is a big of a problem as you're letting on. Even if the % of players in the league who are American is going down, the league is still expanding, so it's a smaller percentage of a bigger number. But I wouldn't be opposed to lowering the number of slots for internationals by one per team. It seems like a place to get some benefit without losing a lot. It's one player on a roster.
     
    Ismitje, jayd8888, adam tash and 2 others repped this.
  18. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seeing as I'm a Club before country fan............

    Look, merely reducing the number of international roster spots by 23 isn't necessarily going to mean more playing time for american based players. That's NOT how pro sports works. Playing time is earned. If a player is not good enough, he's just not good enough. Coaches and players jobs are on the line here. A coach isn't going to just put an American born player in the lineup because it's what's best for US Soccer. If playing a particular player is what's best for that MLS Team, then they will play.

    You also need to define what you mean when you say American Player. There are a lot of american born players who have chosen to play internationally for a different country, as @Gamecock14 pointed out to you. Do those players not count as American?

    By bringing in international players who are very good, the standard of MLS rises. This in turn makes training sessions more competitive. Do you honestly believe that Andrew Carelton isn't improving by having to play and compete against/with Miguel Almiron, Barco, Villaba, Martinez, Nagbe, etc. everyday? Tommy Thompson has to now compete everyday against/with Danny Hoessen, Vako, Magnusson, Wondo, Gadoy, etc. That everyday competition is making them better players.

    .
     
  19. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I named the USMNT players because it was easy to see the list of top American attackers last season. Young players? They're getting hurt too. Look at the injury list right now. It's disproportionately American.

    Jordan Morris is one of the young American attackers. Kellyn Acosta may count too, because he's played the #10 role for Dallas.

    Marlon Hairston has been injured since March, Bradford Jamieson and Jordan Allen haven't played at all because of injury, Tommy Thompson has been listed as out with an illness since March. Earlier in the season, Sebastian Lletget was playing with minor injuries. Brooks Lennon has been forced to the back line mainly because RSL's first and second choice right backs are both injured. That's counting only Americans aged 25 and under, playing attacking positions, who got substantial playing time in 2017 and have been affected in 2018. Extend the age range upward a couple years, and you find Harry Shipp (26) currently injured, Kelyn Rowe (26) dealing with on-and-off injuries, Ethan Finlay (27) out with an ACL tear, and Dillon Powers (27) who started the season injured and hasn't appeared yet.
     
    JasonMa and jaykoz3 repped this.
  20. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Expansion is the central reason why MLS won't and shouldn't, further restrict foreign players.
    At this point 52 percent of MLS players are "domestic" according to a American Soccer Now. Now, Canadian players are, by rights, part of that, but take away the number of Canadians and the three Canadian clubs, and I'd guess the numbers stay pretty close to that. So, that's 48 percent of players are international.
    How does that compare to other leagues:
    English Premier League 69.2%, Belgian Jupiler Pro League 55.8%, Portuguese Liga NOS 55.6% Italian Serie A 55.5%, English Championship (2) 50.8%, Scot Premiership 50.5%, German 1. Bundesliga 49.2%, Swiss Super League 48.6% (thanks Sky Sports for the number crunching).
    The MLS list probably contains Green Card holders, and the OP's notion is that green card holders should be stripped from the domestic list, but it is illegal to treat them differently in hiring practices, so I'm not sure that makes any sense (The league, btw, cannot "do whatever it wants" regarding hiring. They have to follow US labor law).
    But the argument is that MLS, by having about the level of internationals in it that other leagues have, is hurting the USMNT.
    Let's take a look at a graphic that actually studied national team success and compared it to domestic players in national leagues. The US in this list is a smidge ahead of Germany, to use one example of a recent WCup winner, and smidge behind Spain, to use another. We are way behind Brazil and Argentina, though their national sides tend to be a bit light on members of clubs in their own national leagues:
    [​IMG]
    What these numbers indicate, and I don't think this is much of a stretch, is that the problems of the USMNT have nothing to do with the international player policy of MLS. You can fix the parts of the equation that are not broken all day long, but when night falls you will realize it's still broken.
    A counter proposal: There are, when healthy, about 85-90 US eligible field players in MLS who start and play regularly (using the number from above, apologies if I am misusing it. That is more than enough to build a pool of players for the national team. It is especially so when, as is the case with Brazil and Argentina, many of our best players play overseas, meaning the pool has more than 120 players in it. That's enough, in terms of quantity. It's way more than is needed.
    What we need are better players. The way to develop better players is for them to play against better players.
    At this point, those better players are international.
    If you want a better USMNT, what you really want are more, and higher quality, internationals in MLS who will push the top Americans to become better than they are at this point.
     
    Ismitje repped this.
  21. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    big difference between MLS and other leagues is that there is a huge salary disparity between foreigners and domestics.

    carelton (just as a symbolic example - please dont talk about the specifics of him) is not playing ahead of martinez, barco etc not only b/c of how good they are but b/c ATL literally cant afford to pay 15 million for a player and then not PLAY HIM EVERY GAME....it's be like asking a second round pick in the NBA to force LeBron to the bench....NEVER going to happen no matter how worthy the 2nd rounder is.

    maybe the carletons (and i beleive there are many many american bench players out the there who are good enough for mls who are just stuck behind "big ticket" players they have no chance of unseating) arent good enough to unseat high-priced DP's but they are good enough for MLS!!!

    they need playing time but arent getting it!

    it has nothing to do with being good enough! it's merely being stuck unable to control the team and situation they are in. there are teams in MLS that carleton or miles robinson etc could start for....and thats what should be happening.

    they key thing you are overlooking is that in germany...every player can find his level. they have many tiers not just 1 or 2. and players can find a team that suits them where they can actually play instead of rotting on the bench.

    the difference between a germany and spain and MLS is that if germany has 200 players who are good enough for bundesliga...a much higher % of those players are actually playing in the bundesliga and getting significant PT than in MLS.....

    MLS is much more wasteful of its talent than those leagues are.

    you are making the mistake of assuming that b/c players arent establishing themselves in MLS or developing that its b/c the talent isnt there...when in reality its that MLS has a constipated pipeline of development that ruins its players by not giving them the chances they need to thrive. don't let MLS off the hook by saying that the talent isnt there. MLS sucks at developing young players!!!! the answer is simple: force MLS to play more youth....

    one way to do so would be limit or cut down on foreigners in MLS.
     
  22. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You keep saying that DPs will never be dropped if healthy. That's empirically not true. As has been shown in another thread, fully one-third of the DPs that MLS teams have signed have spent significant amounts of time on the bench, and a fair number of DPs have gone for their entire MLS careers without establishing themselves as starters.
     
    jaykoz3, JasonMa and mschofield repped this.
  23. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I'm sorry but your argument is riddled with inaccurate assumptions about how the game works.
    If you want to make this case, make it. Show your work. There's no evidence presented that backs up the notion that MLS has the same anti-Yank bias that people wrongly insist is the case in Yanks abroad.
    Here's the truth: Sometimes even very good players can't get on the field because they are at clubs with better players in front of them.
    The saying here is that the second best side in the Bundesliga is the second 11 for Bmunch. They buy stars from other clubs they know they won't ever rely upon on a regular basis, just so that they won't have to play against them. that isn't unique. All the big clubs do that to some extent.
    But there is no evidence that the problem is deeper than usual in MLS.
    What you're missing with examples such as Carlton is that if he was better, Atlanta would have sought out a big money signing at a position that didn't conflict with his. Clubs globally don't like to waste money, and in MLS where they have less to spend on players than the big leagues over here, they like wasting money even less. Look at Carlton as an example. He's on a talented roster and fighting to find playing time. Yet when he gets a call to the nats, he succeeds. You can view this two ways: You apparently think Atlanta is failing him and should be playing him more. The other way is that he is developing in the current situation, to the point that he can come off the bench of an MLS side into the US nats and succeed. How is that sucking at youth devo?
    You've argued before that he should be allowed to go to a club that would play him. Beyond the fact that that isn't how contracts work, anywhere, the reality is that is has been from day one available for a trade. No one has stepped in to make that happen, and that includes the clubs for whom you believe he would step into the starting 11.
    But no one has made the offer Atlanta couldn't refuse.
    This isn't all about one player, of course. Players play when they force their way onto the field. End of. Big money players don't play because they got big money. They get big money because they can play.
     
    jayd8888, jaykoz3 and JasonMa repped this.
  24. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    American players get more playing time than they did, say 10 years ago, simply because there are 8 more teams and the number of home grown players inn the league has rocketed.
     
    jaykoz3 repped this.
  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    upload_2018-6-9_13-40-17.png

    Source: http://www.espn.com/soccer/major-le...ers-face-greater-competition-for-roster-spots

    That's higher than leagues across Europe where the average is 37% but in the Premier League the 60.4% are foreign and I'm sure it's something similar in Spain and France.

    Carleton is 17. He can't get in ahead of Larentowicz or McCann. Tata has said he wants to introduce him gradually. LeBron James is a phenom. He's the Maradonna, Cruyff or Ronaldo of world basketball. Completely different level.

    As there are in many leagues. The top ten highest earners in EPL at the start of the season were all foreign, while in Spain the highest paid domestic soccer player was Iniesta at #10.

    EU teams can't protect domestic players. it's against the law. China protects domestic players, where else?

    This

    and this.

    And if you want country > club then the number of foreign players in MLS doesn't matter. The best American players should be playing against the best players in the world week in/week out. It's just a shame that MLS teams get zilch when their academy players like Weston McKennie and Haji Wright are poached by German teams.
     
    Ismitje, jayd8888, mschofield and 2 others repped this.

Share This Page