NCFC to USL Official

Discussion in 'NASL' started by AndyMead, Nov 16, 2017.

  1. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    email just in:

     
  2. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  3. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As Neil Morris rightly points out, this means everyone (from either an ownership or team perspective, or both) who broke away from the USL back in 2009 is no longer in the league they broke away to form.

    Atlanta - bye
    Carolina -to USL, bye (and the Wellmanns were out before the first NASL ball was kicked)
    Miami - to Fort Lauderdale, bye
    Minnesota - to MLS, bye
    Montreal - to MLS, bye
    St. Louis - bye
    Vancouver- to MLS, bye

    Other goners
    Puerto Rico (Islanders) - jumped later, bye
    Baltimore - only in USSF2 league in 2010, bye
    San Antonio - bye
    Ottawa - to USL, bye
    Tampa Bay - to USL, bye
    OKC - bye
    San Francisco - bye

    Likely goners
    Puerto Rico FC
    Edmonton

    Even Rochester, who initially jumped, then jumped back, is likely gone.

    That’s a lot of goners for the superior business model and getting to own your own marks.
     
  4. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Member+

    Jun 23, 2006
    CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!

    Kartik will expose it all.....you'll see!!!!
     
    Sandon Mibut repped this.
  5. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was thinking the same thing this morning. All the USL defectors are now gone and Edmonton, the only original NASL team left seems poised to leave. But they should please tell us again about how their model is superior...
     
  6. Todorojo

    Todorojo Member

    Oct 27, 2008
    South Weber, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    How did the USL teams that were left behind fare in since the same time? Curious as to the comparison of the 2 leagues.
     
  7. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I believe 7 (8 depending on how you view Orlando City/Orlando City B) of the original USL Pro teams are still around of the 12 they started with (albeit with some name changes/franchise trading/etc...)

    And several teams still exist from before the split including Charleston, Charlotte, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg/Penn FC, Richmond, and Rochester. Though most of those were in USL 2 (D3) before the split.
     
  8. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    2011 USL line-up:

    Antigua Barracuda - folded after 2013 season
    Charleston Battery - active
    Charlotte Eagles - dropped down to PDL
    Dayton Dutch Lions - dropped down to PDL
    FC New York - folded after 1 season
    Harrisburg City Islanders - active
    Los Angeles Blues - active as Orange County SC
    Orlando City - moved up to MLS
    Pittsburgh Riverhounds - active
    Richmond Kickers - active
    Rochester Rhinos - active but in trouble
    Wilmington Hammerheads - dropped down to PDL

    Two teams folded pretty quickly. Those are the only two that don't exist at all.

    Three dropped down to PDL. Six are still active in USL. One moved up to MLS.
     
  9. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd consider Charlotte as still active since the Eagles sold their USL Pro franchise rights to the current Charlotte Independence owners and the D2 franchise continued without interruption, albeit under a new name and ownership.
     
  10. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  11. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Fair enough. The Eagles still exist but there was definitely continuity in Charlotte in terms of having a team in the league. There is no equivalent situation for the NASL.
     
    athletics68 repped this.
  12. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
  13. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am not sure I would consider Charlotte Independence a continuation of the Eagles franchise because the Eagles should take all that history with them. (And they can’t BOTH have it.) Even though they did buy the slot they didn’t really get any assets.

    Like when Nashville sold their D2 rights to the final iteration of Virginia Beach. The Metros re-emerged in the PDL (again) and it does not seem fair to make their history start from that point and give the Mariners the history that includes the Tennessee Rhythm playing at Battle Ground Academy in the suburbs.

    And the Spurs bought the Scorpions’ stadium, but not their NASL franchise (which was rumored to move to Vegas, remember? Good times.) and not their IP. Obviously. That’s not a continuation either, but a circumstance where a team goes away and another in the same market follows hard upon. (Like Phoenix FC and Arizona United/Phoenix Rising, which are not the same franchise, either.)

    I mean, if you want to make your own list you are free to do whatever. But franchise shifts and sales are so rare at these levels that it is hard to have a consistent rule. And when I update my list, I look at these things on a case-by-case basis.
     
  14. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah I can see both sides. But since the franchise rights were sold from one group to the other I can see it being a bit of a Cleveland Browns type situation. Yes I agree the Eagles took their history with them to the non division leagues, that's not really up for debate... but their spot in D2 was also maintained by the new Independence owners without any expansion having taken place according to the league. As I recall they paid no expansion fee, and the league just signed off on an ownership transfer as if a regular sale had taken place from Eagles to Independence. Essentially an old franchise was maintained that just happened to have retain no existing IP and no existing on field team.

    However it's counted however it up to the individual, but it was clearly a fairly unique situation. And there was some continuity in that Charlotte and the Charlotte fans have not been sans-USL Pro since the inception of the league.

    USL Pro has a couple of these oddities, which is why I also highlighted Orlando City. Yes the newer Orlando City B is not the USL Pro Orlando City SC, but they do maintain the same ownership as the USL Orlando City SC (and its MLS follow on). And if not for the one year hiatus while the MLS Orlando City SC established themselves, they'd have a similar continuity of presence in USL Pro not unlike Charlotte, with continuity of ownership as well.
     
  15. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's all true.

    But there is no other continuity between the Eagles (who, again, have not ceased to exist) and the Independence. Not ownership, not players, not IP, not a stadium lease or sponsorships. Not front office people, not anything.

    Our sport is kind of unique in this respect, with its levels and the ability to go up and down. When the Seattle SuperSonics move to Oklahoma City, they can reasonably say they can leave the history in Seattle and have OKC start fresh. By the same token, the Minnesota Twins can claim the Washington Senators' history. (The Nationals fly a 1924 World Series championship flag at Nats Park, FWIW.) But there was no lower league for someone connected to the Sonics to start a "new/continuation" Sonics in.

    The Colorado Foxes became the San Diego Flash, but not because Rich Karlis and company decided they would rather be in Southern California. It was because Yan Skwara and company bought an A-League franchise from them rather than from the league. But they weren't flying APSL championship flags at Flash games because of the 1992 and 1993 titles the Foxes won. And there's no point in considering them the same franchise, even if Skwara bought the slot.

    I get what you mean about continuity in a market, but Phoenix had a team in 2013 and a team in 2014 and they're not the same franchise, either. USL revoked Phoenix FC's franchise and awarded a new one to Arizona United (which became Phoenix Rising FC).

    It's not clear cut. If the Eagles had ceased to exist, or if the entire Eagles organization hadn't just kept on with business as usual, just in a lower league, there'd be more ammunition for that point of view. (The Eagles had been up and down between the amateur ranks, Division III and Division II over the years.)

    Our responsibility as historians is to tell an accurate story in context so that when we look back, we have a full accounting of what really happened.

    The Eagles still exist. For all intents and purposes, it's the same club. Also for all intents and purposes, Orlando City SC is the "original" Orlando City SC (nee Austin Aztex I, one of the few clear-cut instances of a lower-level club owner moving that club from one market to another) and Orlando City B is not (any more than Louisville is, which was kinda-sorta the USL Orlando franchise, moved by a part-owner).

    There aren't many instances of this. I take the role of historian seriously because we don't have a lot of them and a lot of stuff never got written down and I think it's important that it be kept alive (especially now that people have this sudden interest in the lower levels as some sort of mission-critical component when they wouldn't give them the time of day prior to 2010).

    You are certainly free to make any list any way you like. But I call the Eagles and Independence separate franchises. YMMV.
     
  16. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fair enough. My view would probably have more credence had the Eagles ceased operations when the transfer took place. But that’s neither here nor there. Strictly speaking you’re correct from a historical POV about both Charlotte and Orlando. However, I will say the fact both cities retain USL Pro teams to this day with only a one year hiatus between the two cities is still a notch in USL’s belt when comparing it to NASL as those markets are still intact even if not technically with the original teams.
     
    Jonesta repped this.
  17. oofinalheavenoo

    Oct 30, 2006
    Daly City, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So now the NASL is down to 6 teams? How long until they close? I can't imagine they gonna compete next year with just 6 teams. That's so silly.
     
  18. newtex

    newtex Member+

    May 25, 2005
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Technically they have 8 teams. The six remaining (for now) and the two expansion teams, Orange County and San Diego. They also claim to have some more teams that have signed letters of intent to join the league. Those appear to mostly be NPSL teams that would need financial support to move up.

    We shall see what happens.
     
  19. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A lot hinges on the result of the appeal. If it’s not successful (or if a deal is not reached beforehand that keeps them alive), it appears to be game over. The Cosmos won’t play and that’s pretty much it in that circumstance.
     

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