Dismissing a coach - MNSRC bulletin. Looking for additional info

I had read that article before you posted and I do have some reservations. While I certainly don't condone this type of language...in my state (also your state) referees I observe do not have the tools to manage coaches and are quick to dismiss both them and parents for dissenting opinions. This dissent often happens after a perceived missed call and in many cases of my experience, the coach had a point. I would encourage anyone that reaches the point that a coach or fan dismissal is required to do a little self assessment and determine what were the events that led to the dismissal and were there things the crew could have done to prevent it. It is rare that I see a coach dismissed as a result of one call and instead a building effect of several perceived missed calls, misapplication of laws, or inciting words or actions from the referee and I believe many of the situations we find ourselves in could have been addressed earlier in the match. I fully support a dismissal for these threats just as you support red cards for striking, but as we should all be able to agree on, these events don't happen in a vacuum and we need to tell the honest story of the game to determine how we got there.

 

Yea, just got this one the other day and sort of did a double take as well. I just hope they are really just trying to nip this in the bud. I would think an adult coach telling my 16yo son he was going to "write him up" or "report him" is a LOT more threatening then that same coach telling me that. I am not against this action. Coaches are there to COACH. They should be aware that officials will make mistakes, and using your position as a coach to try and intimidate a younger referee into thinking he/she will be reprimanded for doing their job is a threat to them.

Now if they just ask their name so they might bring issues they may see from an official that is not properly trained is different then "I'm going to report you". and MNSRC acknowledges that.

I may be a bit protective, but "suck it up buttercup" is not what I want to tell my teenage son who was belittled by a 30 something coach. (Not that I think that was what you were implying unique)

 

My observations have been exactly the opposite. I've seen too many referees tolerate far too much.

There are games where the referee does a poor job, but that does not excuse a coach's behavior. There are also games where the referees do a good job, but a coach acts poorly anyway. I have seen more of the later than the former.

This memo is simply instructing us that if a coach threatens to "report" you, dismiss them, period. It doesn't matter how you got there.

 

I used to say I had thick skin, as most of this kind of silliness from coaches (or spectators) doesn't bother me. I guess that's still true however I try to be much more aware of it happening as poor behavior needs to be addressed and stopped for the sake of the referees who it does bother especially those that quit as a result of it.

Regardless of the performance of a referee there is a basic level of respect due to all people, even us lowly referees. If a coach has a point, demeaning or threatening a referee is not the way to make it - and human nature leads to the coach acting this way actually getting less of what they want.

I am never for zero tolerance or absolute solutions in anything and this memo seems to be an absolute. If a coach informs me he is reporting me, I don't see how that's a threat, just a statement of fact. If they say they are going to report my excellence performance to (whoever) are they threatening me?

If it is done in a hostile or threatening manner, if the referee feels threatened or intimidated then by all means dismiss but putting out a hard and fast "If a coach says they are going to report you... don't ask or tell, dismiss them" again seems far too absolute a written statement and too rigid a position to take.

 

And, honestly, the referee was asking for it.

A coach's perception that he has been wronged doesn't give him a license to do what he wants. It's a coach's responsibility to behave responsibly despite any perceived provocation.

 

I think this might be a case of trying to stamp out a new tool coaches are starting to use on referee's. Blackmail in short.

Every year it's like a new coaching toy comes out to try and play on referees to get in their headsthis seems like the newest in a long line.

With the recent hit and run by the PRO bus on a referee I think it might be good to set the example that "reporting" a referee shouldn't be the go to option for coaches.

 

I'm all for this action by the Minnesota SRC. It sends a clear message and is a clear instruction for referees and coaches alike. I used to think that we were supposed to "take it" and be thick-skinned, but the times have changed.

What if you're the other coach...the one who is not yelling "I'm going to report you!" at the referee? What if you're watching your counterpart make a fool out of himself, only to see the other team ultimately get a couple of key calls by a young referee who now appears to be intimidated? Aren't you going to yell that next time?

When a coach yells this during a game, he is clearly making a threat: he's threatening that he's going to "turn you in". He's saying that he never wants to see you on his game again, and he hopes that the assignor won't give you any games. Think about it. Think about why they would yell this.

As humans, if we don't want to be "turned in", then we will naturally try to offer a peace offering of sorts. Young or timid referees will let this affect their calls. We do this on the hopes that we won't actually be reported - that the coach will change his mind. Only the most hardened, confident referees will look at him and shrug. In the youth ranks, those referees are hard to come by.

Youth Soccer has a problem. Minnesota has a problem. Minnesota has identified a tactic that their coaches are using. God bless them for doing something that the other states haven't done yet.

 

I could have written that! There is a big jump to go from 'I don't like that call' type dissent/emotion/arguing to 'You'll never referee here again!' Now the coach has clearly moved from talking about the decisions to targeting the referee personally. Waaaayyy over the line.

IMHO, this sort of behavior occurs when referees do not warn the coach about dissent. The coach begins to think that this referee will tolerate arguing about calls so let's see what he does when I tell him that he's not just wrong but a bad referee. I also see this sort of talk as symptomatic of a coach who wants the ultimate power and authority. He has it with his players, but now they're at a game and the referee isn't giving him his way. He wants to tell the referee that he (the coach) is the real ultimate authority here, not you yellow whistle blower. Sixteen year old referees are much more vulnerable to such attitudes by 30 something coaches, but they are not the only ones who receive this load of stuff from coaches.

Reading game reports, week after week, I got really impatient with referees writing something like "the coaches from the home team were on us the WHOLE game! After the game, the assistant coach told us that they thought we needed to go back to referee school." And no warning/caution or dismissal was reported. I got reports like this almost every week and from referees of every age, 16 to 60.

Telling the referee that you are going to report him/her is irresponsible behavior. Even if the coach plans to call the assignor about his frustration with this referee, there is absolutely no reason that the coach has to tell the referee that during the game. Coaches are to be dismissed for acting in an irresponsible manner. So do it.

 

Coach: "I'm going to report you!"
Ref: "Here, I'll save you the trouble. You're dismissed, and there will be a report."


And if a coach ever asked for my name, I simply said it would be on the game report. (The fact that many ref coaches neglected to bring a game report sheet and never got in trouble for it was not lost on me!)

A select league I reffed in had the rule that any protest must be recorded on the game sheet before leaving the field. So does the coach asking for the sheet to mark a protest count as "I'm reporting you"?

This whole process seems to be a little heavy-handed to me, unless there's been some severe cases of attempted intimidation.

I've told the stories before, but they bear repeating.

I was AR. The coach told the ref he would report him. The ref said fine, I can give you the phone number (of someone in the state ref association). The coach didn't need, that he knew who to call - the assignor. Who happened to be the wife of the ref!

Another game, I was an AR for one of our up and coming youth refs. The coach had been "cautioned" during the game, and afterward told Ashley that if he saw it on the game sheet, she was going to be reported. Ashley, bless her soul, dramatically drew a big flowering "3" next to the coach's name on the sheet, indicating dissent. The coach continued to gripe, so I reminded him that we were still on the field and the ref still had authority to issue a second caution. Ashley said yes she could. That shut him up.

 

Would it make sense for leagues to distribute to coaches and referees certain information in writing before the season? This could include any differences in rules between that league and other leagues, what decisions can and cannot be protested, who to contact to protest, who decides on when to play games postponed by weather, what facilities and items (such as bathrooms, changing rooms, and water) are required to be provided by the home team, and what punishments (if any) a team can get due to coaches and/or fans abusing the referee or players. If a coach threatened to report a referee and the referee responded by saying that Page X of the league guidelines (or whatever you want to call them) states that the coach's problem was with something that could not be protested, maybe the coach wouldn't protest.

 

The MNSRC is absolutely spot on with this memo.

A coach can not be making threats like that. It is definitely irresponsible behavior.

I had a college game years ago, where the I called two clear penalty kicks against the home team, the second one was in overtime that ended the game. Needless to say, the home team coach was not in agreement with my calls. He comes up to me at the end of the game and says, "I'm reporting you to the assignor and I'm gonna make sure you never referee my team again." I showed him a red card.

Needless to say, I have not refereed that coach's team again.

 

Most leagues have this on their website.

But refs should not be concerned with protest procedures and such. Only with what happens on the field. That's hard enough to keep track of when working in various leagues. To know all the league policies is too much to expect.

I had a coach who wanted to protest the game. He marked the box on the game sheet, and then asked me, "So what happens next? Will the league contact me?" I have no idea. But I'm pretty sure he has to file something and pay a fee (which will be refunded if the protest is upheld). I never heard from it again, so I guess he didn't do anything. But I made sure to write up a comprehensive report of the game that night so I wouldn't forget any details.

 

I get e-mails from college assignors every year begging us to issue red cards to coaches who do this crap. I fully support the MNSRC in this endeavor.

Sure, sending out a memo to coaches at the beginning of the season can be good and preventative, and I recommend that. But the lack of such a memo doesn't clear coaches from this kind of behavior. I wouldn't allow a client to speak to me this way. I won't take it on this job either.

 

Again - I support dismissing coaches here but this is exactly the attitude I was worried about. Coach said ... so I dismissed him. If that's the end of the conversation and you never ask why they felt they needed to say it then you've done a disservice to yourself and to the game. And you can feel this way and not condone the coaches behavior.

 

I'm not sure if you are jumbling two things here. If you're saying "toss the coach, and then afterwards consider how things got there and if there were things you could have done better," then I agree. to paraphrase Socrates, an unexamined game was not worth refereeing -- we should try to learn from every game, and when goes in the toilet, it goes a lot of fodder to examine.

But if you are saying to let the coach's comment slide if you think you've made mistakes to warrant his ire, I comp, I completely disagree. Just as referees are expected to maintain their composure when coaches are misbehaving, coaches are obligated to behave responsibly when the referee is having a bad day,

And finally, for those who think "I've got a touch skin, I can take the abuse rather than dismissing," don't think of yourself, think of the new referee who has to deal with the knucklehead next week. Those of us with more experience have a greater obligation to teach coaches to behave responsibly.

 

Anyone else think that this memo should have come from US Soccer instead?

It's definitely not dissent. Making such comments falls under Irresponsible Behavior as already noted.

Actually, the last time I tossed a coach was a club game about 8 years ago (yes, I'm a softie) for this same reason. He was already on a yellow card for earlier dissent. I showed red and told him that I'll happily oblige by giving him advanced time to write up his report. The look of shock was priceless.

Most leagues have some sort of referee evaluation form for coaches to use, so no need to intimidate and make it personal. At the higher levels, there's obviously other ways to provide that negative feedback rather than threatening the official in front of the players.

 

In your first post, you seemed to be saying the coach shouldn't be dismissed if the referee hadn't been perfect in handling the game. It is worth while when a coach has been dismissed to evaluate if there may have been a more effective way to ask and tell the coach.

However, the vast majority of coaches who get to this particular point are arrogant know-it-alls who are utterly convinced of their correctness and of the referee's bias/ignorance. These coaches can't be helped (although we shouldn't stop trying). Horses to water, etc.

 

I can see how this statement makes it seem I'm suggesting you tolerate it.

It's fine if you want to consider coaches the enemy and pretend they're all arrogant jerks who enjoy tormenting referees. If they use this language, by all means get rid of them. But if at the end of the year you wonder why some referees have to throw out more coaches that others I can promise you the answer isn't solely on the coaches. This memorandum treats a symptom of disrespect and abuse. It does not address he root cause which could be anything such as years of accepted tolerance, local culture behaviors, or unsatisfactory referee performances.

 

And here you are again, blaming the referee for the coach's poor behavior. Poor referee performance is never a reason for poor behavior on the part of a coach. You should never say to a referee, "Well, you deserved to be verbally abused because you just didn't do a good enough job."

And, no, I don't consider coaches the enemy and I don't pretend they are all arrogant jerks who enjoy tormenting referees. But the specific subgroup of coaches who try to intimidate minor referees and threaten to report them are all of those things. And when we've reached that point, why we got there is less important than punishing the person who is verbally abusing the referee.

 

I could not disagree more. Determining why we got there prevents it from happening again. And oh by the way...you can dismiss a coach AND ask yourselves these questions

 

Yes I'm absolutely suggesting that poor referee performance led to a coach being irate *glass shatters*.

Poor referee performance is absolutely a reason coaches get angry. It being a reason does not excuse it. Minnesota has identified one behavior that should be classified as referee abuse which is no different than ifab identifying dissent as a cauitionable offense or SFP is a send off offense. But have you ever wondered if you had called a foul here or given a card there then maybe an event at the end of the game would have been different? I assume you have because you're on this forum and many people ask for those opinions. So why draw the line with players? Why can't you wonder if you had treated a coach differently or called a certain foul or given certain punishment then perhaps it wouldn't have escalated to a dismissal?

 

So is good referee performance, medium referee performance, bad player performance, bad weather, an earlier argument with his spouse, and the way Pluto is aligned with Mars.

I've been reffing a while, and I think I'm very good about being honest with myself. With that said, there is ABSOLUTELY NO CORRELATION with the games I've had to eject a coach, and my performance in those games.

 

Incognitoind, I think you are overestimating the role of the referee in the coach's behavior. I have very, VERY few coach dismissals. Some of that is probably related to the small number of youth games I do. At least around here, adult amateur teams don't have a coach. High school and college coaches all pretty much know me and I've been around longer than they have, so it's tough for them to think they know the game better than I do. That's not necessarily a position that most referees have, however.

"I coulda/woulda/shoulda done this different," etc. is fine for post game self analysis but it does not justify the coach's behavior. In over 10 years as a coach at the youth level, coaching boys, girls, co-ed, recreational, competitive, indoor, outdoor, parent-coach and hired gun, there was one time that the referee's performance was so horrible that the players were being endangered. My assistant and I agreed to just take our team off the field and say 'thanks for coming out.' One time! But a coach's ego being endangered is not a valid reason to throw a fit. The coach is not more important than the game and when their behavior reaches the point that they are the focus of attention, then it's time for them to leave so the players can play, even if the referee called a penalty kick for a handling offense in the penalty area that the coach didn't see.