El indecido me molesta, si no me quiero, Transfer Thead 2016

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by total_football, May 3, 2016.

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  1. BigEffingGooner

    BigEffingGooner Member+

    Apr 25, 2012
    Austin, Tx
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Reportedly 86m

    Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk
     
  2. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Confirms a lot of what we know.

    1. Everything goes thru Wenger - unlike say Bayern where they have two separate operational lines one for the first team and one for the talent acquisition. IMO this is a huge weakness at Arsenal.

    2. Arsenal are not dealing with the "super agents" which means they cannot sign the top players controlled by those cartels.
     
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  3. InTheSun

    InTheSun Member+

    Oct 20, 2005
    The Andes Mountains
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ecuador
    Most surprising to me was Dick Law as the defacto sporting director.
     
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  4. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    I believe that was the release clause in his old contract, did they leave it unchanged in his new contract?
     
  5. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    They increased it, iirc
     
  6. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    why would greasy join an inferior club?
     
  7. Romfordray

    Romfordray Member+

    Oct 24, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know I have always wondered about to what extent stats could influence a sports as free flowing as soccer? I mean in a lot of other sports, matrices could be established quickly but how do you do that in soccer where unpredictability of movement is a big driver? Sure one could get a "value" for a player but is that a legit value? How far down are you willing to go to buy someone? The super agent cartel stinks but that is the reality. IMO, like NFL and increasingly in soccer, the scouting/buying department and coach need separation.
     
  8. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Are you saying that Bayern have one department that focuses on the first team (including player recruitment for the first team), and another for prospects, or are you saying that Bayern's player recruitment is separate from the manager?

    No point in crying over this - this isn't going to change. We're not going to pay 8 figure agent fees.
     
  9. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    We will do something close once Wenger leaves.
     
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  10. footykid

    footykid Member+

    Jan 10, 2005
    Mississauga, Ont
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Their stats will be influenced by positioning, position and play. A player being played as CAM with a high passing accuracy is either excellent or not making the passes he is supposed to. By watching the player you can then determine if he is Ozil or Hleb, and then you decide their value to your system. Stats give you the framing, and the 3 P's help you determine accuracy of your framing. Without each other both are essentially meaningless. If his P's are good, but stats are average you can isolate for the quality of his teammates, and vice versa. But ultimately soccer will always be a scout heavy sport, which is why you can get such wide discrepancies between fan's assessment of players. Like Pogba.
     
  11. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Bayern have separate reporting lines.

    The first team is currently run by Ancelloti. He reports direct to KHR

    Michael Reschke is the Technical Director who is part of the front office

    Until recently there was also Sammer as sporting director - who retired for health reasons.

    Recruitment was handled by Sammer & Reschke who both report to KHR as the CEO. Sammer was also involved in the first team.

    So as you can see at Bayern the manager is not part of the operational line which does the acquisition
     
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  12. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    The other approach is the Ser Fergus approach to essentially outsource the first team and the recruitment and sit between those two things.

    IMO Wenger is too hands on - so he's got good wisdom which you want from your older boss but he is too old man with the first team and with recruitment.
     
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  13. footykid

    footykid Member+

    Jan 10, 2005
    Mississauga, Ont
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I don't think that set up can be replicated or sustainable. It requires so many "football", and then where does accountability sit? Assuming the first team and match to match tactics are set by the manager, who is ultimately responsible for a failing first team strategy? How and when do you decide to change the first team strategy, and who is responsible for managing the shift? The Bayern model seems like a machine designed to protect senior management from repercussions, with disposable moving parts beneath them. Its a good system to be in you are an Ancelloti, or a Mourinho, hell I would say many English coaches we deride here would be successful in such a model. And, its a model Man U should adopt, and I believe they are.

    This system only looks possible because Bayern is the dominant club in Germany and financial bullies all but what 5-8 Clubs in the world? How can a team who cannot afford to just buy the lowest risk player to continue a system run through that much bureaucracy. Arsenal should be run like a 2nd gen start up, we have enough money to shift streams every 3 seasons based on market pressures, but not enough to be run contrary. Its currently managed by risk adverse old men, so we are stuck in this limbo where we sort of do both, but neither.

    There needs only be two departments for such a model, the First team who decides club strategy and tactics, and recruitment which manages the reserves, youth teams, and transfers. The only communications between the two should be "need x part for team, personality, key stats, and importance." or declaration of strategy for next season.

    We should be shifting to a medium depth block, outside-in, high volume chance creation system because that is what is available in droves and focusing on getting the best players to play that system in the world.
     
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  14. AEAAFC96

    AEAAFC96 Member+

    Mar 27, 2006
    NYC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Uh, yeah...F**K NO~! Arsenal don't need to align themselves with superagents that suggest they bring half-fit/out-of-form players on exorbitant wages.
     
  15. lynesjc

    lynesjc Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jun 21, 2001
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Falcao (Mendes) & Balotelli (Raiola) being two recent good examples of this.
     
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  16. darcgun

    darcgun Member+

    Jan 11, 2008
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    like kallstrom? he has a point, united, city, chelsea are ahead due to how they operate. maybe our structure and self-funding model needs to go.
     
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  17. darcgun

    darcgun Member+

    Jan 11, 2008
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    wenger due to his success has too much deference. Gazidis is a football person, but then he defers to Wenger, and Kroenke doesn't give a ******** and thinks because wenger won the invincibles he knows it all. post-wenger if kroenke is to stay, get somebody like an Adams, Vieira or Henry as a technical director.
     
  18. lynesjc

    lynesjc Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jun 21, 2001
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Blogs is Irish but grew up in England I think, which is why his accent is muddled. After trying the others, I like them all:

    Mostly serious with some humor:
    Football Weekly - great example of understated British humor, solid analysis. Mainstream football media analysis.
    The Game - I think Gabe Marcotti is one of the better football writers out there today and his podcast is solid too. Mainstream football media analysis.

    Mostly humor with some seriousness:
    Football Ramble - very funny at times, more humor mixed with analysis, like Men in Blazers. It's like sitting at a bar and overhearing a group of mates at a nearby table discuss footie and tell jokes.

    Also worth a listen:
    Second Captains - I really like Ken Early, although I skip through the Ireland discussions

    I can't commit to a daily, so haven't tried 5Live's.
     
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  19. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Personally I think it has higher accountability - its just the club is run from the front office not from the all powerful manager

    Look at LvG for how the english system does not work well

    He is essentially judged for the quality of players he recruited but how realistic is the expectation that he could recruit elite players?

    In the end Utd fixed their squad via a super agent - which is similar to just using an outsourced talent agency

    Not saying LvG did not fail on the football side as well - but he could not have recruited Pogba Mhki and Ibra anyway

    Essentially Woody has done that by outsourcing the role to a talent manager and paying thru the snout
     
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  20. GunnerJacket

    GunnerJacket Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 18, 2003
    Gainesville, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    No they're not. They're ahead because they spend more money. Period. I'm not discounting their roster or staffs but all those clubs have made plenty of bad signings or equally struggled on the pitch and in their academies. They simply have the cash to spend even more if Plan A goes awry.
     
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  21. footykid

    footykid Member+

    Jan 10, 2005
    Mississauga, Ont
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    But, again that is based on BM position. Short of an short term innovation at a smaller club they are going to win the league at a jog, so really it comes down to CL performance, and and in place of that winning the domestic cup. Competitively there isn't any accountability because winning is a given, the "success" of this set up is mostly predicated on just how poor the management of the 2004-2010 period. In reality they have no reason to not be this dominant, so as long as they hire a relatively competent manager and keep buying entertaining teams SR Management is untouchable. Because to fail, is impossible.

    United tried to set up a Arsenalish model without an AW and with a poorer squad, the manager was always doomed to failure regardless of who he/she was.

    The frustrating thing is Arsene is actually spectacular at his job, he's so good that he competes. Its his ability that upsets knowledgeable fans because if he could find someone he trusted he could do less, and Arsenal would benefit. Given a capable, and responsible partner, I would still have Arsene on if I'm being honest. The Super-agent model needs a real world competitor.
     
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  22. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    The BL did not begin 4 years ago!

    Bayern are frequently beaten to the title - including the relatively recent humiliation of everyones hero Heynckes by Klopp

    Indeed the way Bayern came to be dominant in the last 4 years was by strategic process improvement - especially focussing on acquiring managers to develop a possession game, and focus on strategic, long term talent acquisition

    i.e the complete opposite of what Arsenal are doing
     
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  23. footykid

    footykid Member+

    Jan 10, 2005
    Mississauga, Ont
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I agree with you for the most part so read what I am saying in that light. Their process was poor and mismanaged, but its not like FC Coln could have implemented the same system in 2012 and establish German football dominance. BM f*$@ it up so bad previously that their implementation looks genius by comparison. And, I did account for the innovative over achiever in my previous argument, Dortmand looks like the fossil of a T-rex these days, and BM is even stronger. Dortmond won't be the last team to do it by any measure, but BM is always going to be the heir apparent and the King.

    My larger point is, it works for them, it is a good system. I don't think Arsenal have the raw materials to duplicate it. The corporate responsibility is a non sequitur to be honest, just a personal annoyance. Arsenal is Schalke or Dortmond not BM, that can't/won't play that game because they don't have the money to do it. Outside of the ManC and ManU, the next most competitive team is going to be playing "Meta football", and I want that team to be Arsenal.
     
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  24. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #7599 NorthBank, Sep 9, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
    LIKED your categories!

    5Live's Football Daily definitely falls into "Mostly serious with some humor". OK maybe not too much humor but then again it's the BBC so what can you expect?! Actually what would be the radio equivalent of Lineker doing MOTD in his skivvies? I digress. Because it amounts to 4-5hrs/week, I end up skipping through large pieces of the banter, especially when they get deep into the English NT, which I only have so much tolerance for personally.

    Gab Marcotti... I'm staying away from! I can't stand when he's a talking head on ESPN... there's something about him, his eyes and his mannerisms that I just can't take. On the radio it's a little easier, because I can't see him. In print, I guess I could try, but his TV image is so indelled in my brain that I'm not sure will do that. ;)

    I'll give Football Weekly a try next. My quick search came up with a Guardian podcast of that name... is that the one?

    And I'm still giving ArseBlog/Cast a chance before I decide for good. So the guy's name is "Blogs"? I sure get the impression he really wants to keep his anonymity intact! And I have to say that accent is much weirder than just Ireland+England.
     
  25. lynesjc

    lynesjc Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jun 21, 2001
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #7600 lynesjc, Sep 9, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
    Yeah, Football Weekly is a Guardian podcast. The Game is a Times publication I think. The Ramble is independent. Arseblog's real name is Andrew Mangan, Blogs is just his nickname.

    This is a good sample of the sort of stuff Arseblog gets up to:
     
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