By not preceding 'Americans and Kenyans' with a quantifier, you implied "all" or "in general", the two not differing much in meaning. ex: Elephants are big. That means: [all] Elephants are big. You know a few Kenyans, you tried to generalize that to an entire population. Bungadiri, you're wasting your time with someone who doesn't even know what HE is saying, so he surely got lost reading what you wrote. As far as the original point of the thread is concerned, Noah Dahl took the words out of my mouth. The Olympic Basketball team could sure take some lessons from our guys.
Again, you're missing my point. The presence of the word "all" in that sentence is immaterial to the gist of my argument, which is: "is national character a good model for explaining group differences and/or the performance of the USMNT? I say 'no' [for reasons stated elsewhere]." If you want more details, PM me. Well, THIS particular anthropologist is not going to waste any more time (mine or anyone else's) on this particular issue. I already got called "silly" once in this thread and it hurt my feelings real bad. He explained, that was an accident!
dfb547490 (Our boys) didn't cheat or whine LOL, what a load of Crap. there was plenty of cheating you just dont want to acknowledge it. Also if you heard Futbol De Primera (Cantors Radio Show) After the Germany Game Claudio Reyna was whinning about the Reff "I dont know what happened, I have played with him before (The ref) and he has never been this biased. He wasnt calling the German fouls and that was a clear PK that he didnt call, I dont know how he didnt see It, But im not going to Complain" Didnt he later say something about not making excuses like the Mexicans, LOL what a W@nker..
Re: dfb547490 Right...whose strikers spent the entire tournament flopping around anytime they came inside the penalty box trying to get a pk? Whose star defender, when it was evident that his team was going to get knocked out, tried to injure an opposing player? Which country's citizens, after the loss, attacked citizens of the other country (most of whom had no idea what the fuss was all about) trying to cross the border? Which country's citizens, after the loss, moaned and cried and had their media buddies write above-the-fold stories about how the loss is another blow to that country's national honor and how the other country is just a big bully, dominating them economically and politically and now, horror of horrors, daring to win a soccer game? If Mexico had won, would a professor of American studies from a Mexican university have written in to the letters page of a major Mexican newspaper chastising the Mexican team for winning, asking why all Mexican advances have to come at the expense of the US, and implying that the Mexican team should have thrown the game to avoid doing further harm to the US' national psyche (yes, I actually saw this, in the New York Times about a week after the match)? But we were the cheaters and whiners Alex
dfb547490 Right...whose strikers spent the entire tournament flopping around anytime they came inside the penalty box trying to get a pk? Many strikers did this. You must truly be New to the game if you think World Cup teams all have AYSO discipline. Whose star defender, when it was evident that his team was going to get knocked out, tried to injure an opposing player? If he would have wanted to Injure Coby he would of. Its not very difficult to Injure a player on Purpose. Good thing your not in the field cos you act like a pussy. Did you not see Reynas judo kick to Braulio Lunas thigh, he didnt injure him cos that wasnt his intention. Guess what Jr this is a man sport if you cant take a hit i suggest you go play Doll's with your sister.. Which country's citizens, after the loss, attacked citizens of the other country (most of whom had no idea what the fuss was all about) trying to cross the border? A Couple of Kids throwing rocks at Cars. Like U.S sports fans havent done Idiotic things before. Which country's citizens, after the loss, moaned and cried and had their media buddies write above-the-fold stories about how the loss is another blow to that country's national honor and how the other country is just a big bully, dominating them economically and politically and now, horror of horrors, daring to win a soccer game? I read the Mexican Newspapers daily and this was not the Case. In Mexico it wasnt. This i only read about in the U.S press which doesnt really cover soccer, my best guess is that they made those storys up. But we were the cheaters and whiners. I didnt say that the USMNT is a Cheating team. Im saying that many of its players will do so, Everybody in footy does it. Even hacking a player as hes about to get away is cheating. What makes you think that the US never resorts to Thuggery.
As (another?) former anthro major, I can't resist. National cultures probably do not exist at the level of individual psyche. In other words, you can't define my behavior very well knowing nothing more than my nationality. Let me throw this out: national cultures are a set of coherent stories, metaphors, ideas about who "we" are. The "we" can vary- Americans, Kenyans, Catalans (a group I know). SOmetimes the play of a team, or its attitude, fits nicely with these stories and metaphors and becomes a point of association. When it doesn't, well, they are just atheletes playing a game. Here is how it works: UMNT plays well in a loss to Germany, and we are reminded that as Americans we like to think of ourselves as scrappy underdogs who perservere one way or another. Or, America is a land of immigrants, a polyglot, and the team reflects the success of the democratic impulse (see France 98 for another example). Which story you associate with is your choice, further eroding any singular, one national culture. Of course, some of us may not want to take up the association, which is what a "free" country means to me. So, no problem. So you are right that national culture as the key to figure out why person x,y,or z behaves is pretty useless as an idea. At the same time, national culture does exist at a more diffuse level and is probably more relevnat for understanding ones' own culture rather than pigeon-holing a slew of other nations.
Various, OK, there's bias in our press. There's bias in your press. Fair enough. Please explain the international revulsion at the Mexican play late in the game. Everyone in the world hates Mexico? Worse than the US? Anyone comparing Marquez' 3 pronged attack on Cobi (fist, foot, and head) to Reyna mis-played lunge for the ball, is demonstrating a level of naivete that is truly breathtaking. Well, naivete or hypocrisy. I'm not sure which.
superdave Various, OK, there's bias in our press. There's bias in your press. Fair enough. Theres no biased in Mexican footy press, except for AmeriCrap from publications owned by Televisa. All the newspapers i read gave full credited the U.S as beign the better team as the reason for the win. The only bias i saw was in the U.S papers reporting fan reactions such as "They treat us like dog's" which are plain idiotic. Please explain the international revulsion at the Mexican play late in the game. I would say frustration. The team got outplayed and resorted to thuggery, i know its pathetic but at least they went down fighting Anyone comparing Marquez' 3 pronged attack on Cobi (fist, foot, and head) to Reyna mis-played lunge for the ball, is demonstrating a level of naivete that is truly breathtaking. Did he injure him, No. could it be the fould looks more atrocious in slow motion repeated over and over. What do you say about O'brians two footed studs up tackle to Borgetti in the first half. To me that is even more dangerous..
Eek, full seminar mode! Sounds fine to me. Foucault (reserve left back for PSG, late 70s-early 80s) would applaud your having made room for multiple interpretations (see the debate inspired by VS's posts) and for the possibility of the USMNT's WC performance not only embodying "US culture" but changing it.
Re: superdave At least you're admitting there was something wrong. 1. No, what made it look bad was the combination...esp. the punch to the side. There's no way on God's green earth that wasn't a deliberate attack. It was a completely unnatural move in soccer. 2. If you're talking about the play I think you mean, by your reckoning, the US beat Mexico 1-0.
you really don't pay attention. When you leave out the article, like I said, there is not much difference in meaning between the two.
The whole idea of a NT reflecting national character is a stretch at best. Did the US Olympic hockey team represent national character in Nagano? Man, I hope not. How about those ego-centric, prima donas that comprise US Olympic basketball teams? I believe generalities about national characteristics can sometimes be accurate, but whether or not a NT represents them really depends on group dynamics and leadership more than anything else. Someone here mentioned the difference between the 98 and 02 squads; a perfect illustration.
Seminarian Responds I didn't know Foucault played footy. Foot-cault?! What kinds of discipline did playing at PSG inscribe on the body? A lead on VS posts? Who is VS? The originator of this thread?
VS = Various Styles, who is doing a pretty good job of demonstrating that there is no inherently "real" interpretation of the USMNT's WC performance (although I have to say that the comparison between Marquez's foul on Jones with JOB's tackle on Borgetti is pushing the boundaries of reasonable consensus, if not reality ).