Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I'm not referring to those parts in the links. I'm referring to the paragraph where a famous journalist (Glanville in this case) got introduced by and more familiar with a player because of an introduction by that omnipresent and at their peak very influential shoe company ("may have finished that high due to being big names" in your words) - by the actual boss who got a fancy nickname as "puppet master" with a dense schedule, to be more specific. That's indeed the lobbying and it still happens today like you said.

    As for Yashin: a block voting pattern did happen but notice that there were only six Eastern Bloc voters who had him in their top three; Yashin got eleven first place votes, and the margin with Rivera was not a landslide but still considerable.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    On that theme: Belanov in 1986 is a more clearer and famous case then. With more unanimous block voting as Yashin in 1963.
     
  3. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Sorry to keep asking many Ballon d'Or questions, but where can you find these votes?
     
  4. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Although I feel Belanov had a far better case then Yashin, Belanov had a good WC and was part of the exciting team that won the CWC, whether he did enough to finish above Lineker is debatable, it does sound though like you said the Eastern blocks were heavily stacked in his favour that was the deciding factor.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes I agree with that (he also performed in club friendlies of that year against international teams) but the detailed results (as I've saved the full 1986 results on my computer do reveal some block voting.

    USSR, Czechoslovakia, Poland and East Germany had him 1st. Bulgaria had him 3rd (behind Zavarov and Amoros), Hungary 4th (Lineker, Zavarov, Rush), Rumania 3rd (Ducadam, Lineker) and Yugoslavia 3rd (Lineker, Schumacher).

    It would be wrong too to only 'accuse' the Eastern Block of those tendencies, to be fair. And e.g. Yugoslavia had always a quasi-independent stance towards Moscow, on any sphere and type of subject.

    West Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Sweden had Belanov as 1st too. That adds to eight first place votes.

    He was excluded from the top five by Spain (Atletico Madrid fan maybe? ;)), Finland, Greece, Ireland and Portugal.

    Italy had Butragueno as #1, England Lineker, Scotland Elkjaer-Larsen, France Zavarov, Spain Dassaev.

    I don't have the full results for this one but I got it from a comment in a Dutch magazine (I see now and maybe I made my note from this one). That adds up because there were 6 Eastern Block voters in total (placing him in top three), and he got 11 first place votes (of 21). The France Football book cites a few commenting people too.

    Belanov had comparatively 4 of 8 top votes from his 'own camp', 26 voters in total. Yashin <=5 of 11 top votes, with a 'mere' 21 voters in total.
     
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  6. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    It was true that 'Eastern Block' supported Belanov, but it was really matter? There was a big gap between Belanov and Lineker; 22 pts. if 4 eastern guys didn't voted for Belanov, anyway, still he would be 1st place. Belanov had total 21 votes, it was best record, and better than Lineker(18) and Butragueno(20). not only 1st votes, he received seven 2nd votes, nobody got more than Belanov.

    these writers chose Belanov as #2.
    Austria, Denmark, France, Italy, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Turkey
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #457 PuckVanHeel, Apr 13, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2016
    I agree it was maybe not decisive (one doesn't know how it pans out with a different set of voters, communication dynamic etc.) but that matches with my reply.

    To AD78 his suggestion about possible block voting in 1963 ("I would be very interested to see the vote breakdown for 1963 and whether it was dominated by Eastern block votes for Yashin, I know we have talked about career awarding Ballon d'or winners and this was I think the worst case")

    I mentioned as a reply to that "the margin with Rivera was not a landslide but still considerable." (18 points @ 21 voters). Then I added that 1986 is probably a better example or case of block voting. As a related observation, the margin was comparatively smaller as well (22 points @ 26 voters). So if anything 'block voting' would count for more.

    The largest gaps came from Belgium (Belanov #1, Lineker not in top five), Netherlands (Belanov #1, Lineker not included), Sweden (Belanov #1, Lineker not included), Luxembourg (Belanov #2, Lineker not included) and the Soviet Union (Belanov #1, Lineker #5). Other gaps in favor of Belanov were three points or smaller (for ex. Romania).

    These five countries account for a 23 points gap (Benelux, Sweden, USSR).
     
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  8. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    1972

    Ayala, Rubén (San Lorenzo, Argentina)
    Beckenbauer, Franz (Bayern Munich, Germany)
    Blankenburg, Horst (Ajax)
    Bonev, Hristo (Lokomotiv Plovdiv, Bulgaria)
    Brindisi, Miguel Ángel (Huracan, Argentina)
    Chumpitaz, Héctor (Universitario, Peru)
    Coelho, Humberto (Benfica, Portugal)
    Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Cubillas, Teófilo (Alianza Lima, Peru)
    da Guia, Ademir (Palmieras)
    Deyna, Kazimierz ( Legia Warsaw, Poland)
    Džajić, Dragan (Red Star Belgrade, Yugoslavia)
    Figueroa, Elias (Internacional)
    Johnstone, Jimmy (Celtic, Scotland)
    Keizer, Piet (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Lee, Francis (Manchester City, England)
    McFarland, Roy (Derby County, England)
    Müller, Gerd (Bayern Munich, Germany)
    Neeskens, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Netzer, Günter (Borussia Mönchengladbach, Germany)
    Pereira, Luís (Palmieras)
    Riva, Gigi (Caligiari, Italy)
    Rocha, Pedro (Sao Paulo)

    Honorable Mention: Paulo Cézar Lima, Narciso Doval, Jairzinho, Marinho Chagas, Emerson Leão, Dudu, Leivinha, Toninho Geurreiro, Wilson Piazza, Roberto Perfumo, Paulo César Carpegiani, Valdomiro, Roberto Telch, Ramón Heredia, José Omar Pastoriza, Ricardo Pavoni, Miguel Raimondo, Ángel Bargas, Oswaldo Ramírez, Percy Rojas, Martin Chivers, Billy Bremner, Roberto Boninsegna, Sandro Mazzola, Gianni Rivera, Billy McNeill, Lou Macari, John Greig, Ruud Krol, Gerrie Mühren, Paul Breitner, Uli Hoeneß, Robert Gadocha, Włodzimierz Lubański, Raoul Lambert, Paul Van Himst, Marius Trésor, Murtaz Khurtsilava, Yevgeniy Lovchev, Viktor Kolotov

    A few things here might be controversial. First Beckenbauer, the Balon d'Or winner I have in fourth position. I just feel the things that defined this German team as possibly its greatest ever is the attacking play from Muller and Netzer. I also feel Cruyff can't be left out as this might be his greatetst club season ever and he was great for the Netherlands as well, albeit on a smaller stage than the European Championships.

    A few somewhat off color choices in Coelho and Bonev, but I really like Coelho's season when you see what he did with Benfica in the EC and with Portugal. Also unsure about including two English players after the what Germany did to them and a relatively poor international year overall. The possibilities for replacement are more German and Ajax players in Breitner, Hoeneß, Krol, and Muhren.
     
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  9. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    You can replace them with Sotil and Lato.
     
  10. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    What have those two done specifically to warrant inclusion? If I wanted another Pole at this point in their careers I would take Gadocha over Lato. Pretty sure Lato was not seen as a main player of the team yet.
     
  11. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I thought you had Gadocha in the list of 23, you could move him up and place Lato as honorable mention. I believe he led his team to the championship and was an important player for the Gold medal at the Olympics.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    He was 1971-72 European Cup topscorer too, until UEFA retrospectively counted this goal at 0:30 as an own goal by Marseille. This accolade is good to note for the "what was his best club season" question.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971–72_European_Cup
    Seems their website has changed it though.
     
  13. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    1973

    Ancheta, Atilio (Gremio)
    Beckenbauer, Franz (Bayern Munich, Germany)
    Blankenburg, Horst (Ajax)
    Brindisi, Miguel Ángel (Huracan, Argentina)
    Caszely, Carlos (Colo-Colo, Chile)
    Cruyff, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands)
    da Guia, Ademir (Palmieras)
    Deyna, Kazimierz ( Legia Warsaw, Poland)
    Haan, Arie (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Heynckes, Jupp (Borussia Mönchengladbach, Germany)
    Houseman, René (Hurucan, Argentina)
    Gadocha, Robert (Legia Warsaw, Poland)
    Krol, Ruud (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Leivinha (Palmieras, Brazil)
    Müller, Gerd (Bayern Munich, Germany)
    Neeskens, Johan (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Netzer, Günter (Borussia Mönchengladbach, Germany)
    Pereira, Luís (Palmieras, Brazil)
    Riva, Gigi (Caligiari, Italy)
    Rivera, Gianni (AC Milan, Italy)
    Tomaszewski, Jan (ŁKS Łódź, Poland)
    Valdés, Francisco (Colo-Colo, Chile)
    Zoff, Dino (Juventus, Italy)

    Honorable Mention: Paulo Cézar Lima, Direcu, Marinho Chagas, Pele, Clodoaldo, Edu, Emerson Leão, Pedro Rocha, Elias Figueroa, Direcu Lopez, Nelinho, Carlos Babington, Ruben Ayala, Ricardo Pavoni, Leonardo Veliz, Sergio Ahumada, Alberto Quintano, Fernando Morena, Hugo Sotil, Fabio Capello, Romeo Benetti, Raoul Lambert, Joachim Streich, Bernd Bransch, Roland Sandberg, Ralf Edström, Josip Katalinski, Włodzimierz Lubański, Wim Suurbier, Gerrie Mühren, Johnny Rep, Hristo Bonev, Emlyn Hughes, Martin Chivers, Kevin Keegan, Roy McFarland, Pat Jennings

    Top three seemed pretty clear to me. Cruyff like 71 may not have had his best season and missed some time but came up big in big games and delivered another European Cup and qualified for the World Cup. Muller's goalscoring record may be a little over inflated by the glut of goals in the one of the German cups and all the goals vs a minnow in the European Cup but it was still a great year. Brindisi seems like an obvious pick as well taking lowly Huracan to the title in Argentina and then starring in qualifying the national team for the World Cup after they missed 1970.

    Some tough players to leave out, players that could be replaced are Riva, whose production had decreased in the league despite being great with the national team, and possibly one of the Poles who had to had on by the skin of their teeth in the final game vs England to qualify. Maybe Denya could be left off despite getting the most Balon d'Or votes (probably based on reputation after the great 1972 Olympics?), as Gadocha was the star of the home win vs England with a goal and assist and Tomaszewski the star in the away draw. Would like to get maybe Hughes or Keegen in as Liverpool won the league by a long way and won a strong UEFA Cup. Overall English teams preformed well in International Cups (Derby made Ec semis, Leeds made the final of the CWC), but there is the dark cloud of missing the World Cup despite playing Poland off the pitch in the final match where Tomaszewski stood on his head.
     
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  14. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    This is a very impressive work and an interesting content Tom Stevens. I'm reviewing your lists carefully and without doubt your research is very deep and the result is a great source.

    I've had the boldness to start to copy your lists on my blog to keep them as a quality source (with proper credit to you) in this article: Balón de Oro Global desde 1920
    . Let me know if it's a problem, please.

    For now I just recently read your lists of the 20's (1920-1929) and one of the interesting features I see about them is which players appeared more often. Who did most was Scottish Alan Morton (7), followed by Hungarian György Orth, Czechoslovak Karel Pesek and Uruguayan Héctor Scarone (all with 6), which gives a wink about regularity.

    According to this last topic, this is as you mentioned from 20's:

    7 - MORTON, Alan (SCO) - 1921, 1923, 1924, 1925, 1927, 1928, 1929
    6 - ORTH, György (HUN) - 1920, 1921, 1922, 1923, 1924, 1925
    6 - PESEK, Karel (CZE) - 1920, 1921, 1922, 1923, 1925, 1927
    6 - SCARONE, Héctor (URU) - 1923, 1924, 1925, 1926, 1927, 1928
    5 - BUCHAN, Charlie (ENG) - 1920, 1921, 1923, 1924, 1926
    5 - GALLACHER, Hughie (SCO) - 1924, 1925, 1926, 1927, 1929
    5 - WALKER, Billy (ENG) - 1921, 1922, 1923, 1924, 1925
    4 - ANDRADE, José Leandro (URU) - 1923, 1924, 1925, 1926
    4 - KONRÁD, Kálmán (HUN) - 1920, 1921, 1924, 1926
    4 - McGRORY, Jimmy (SCO) - 1925, 1926, 1927, 1928
    4 - SAMITIER, Josep (SPA) - 1922, 1925, 1926, 1928
    4 - SEOANE, Manuel (ARG) - 1922, 1925, 1926, 1927
    4 - ZAMORA, Ricardo (SPA) - 1920, 1922, 1925, 1929
    3 - BRAUN, József (HUN) - 1920, 1923, 1924
    3 - FRIEDENREICH, Arthur (BRA) - 1920, 1921, 1925
    3 - LIBONATTI, Julio (ARG) - 1921, 1927, 1928
    3 - JACK, David (ENG) - 1923, 1925, 1926
    3 - JACKSON, Alex (SCO) - 1926, 1928, 1929
    3 - NASAZZI, José (URU) - 1923, 1924, 1926
    3 - NECO (BRA) - 1920, 1922, 1923
    3 - PETRONE, Pedro (URU) - 1923, 1924, 1928
    3 - PUC, Antonín (CZE) - 1927, 1928, 1929
     
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  15. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Why don't you Pele put in top 23? you know, He beat Brindisi on El Mundo's SA PoY.
     
  16. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    At this point I am not putting a whole lot of stock in the award. I already talked about 1971 and Tostao. I don't really understand Cubillas in 72 either. Domestically I am sure he was good but did not win the title. Went out in the 1st group stage of the libertadores and Peru had a poor year internationally. Both Tostao and Cubillas seem like votes for the hopeful successor to Pele more than the best player that year.

    As for Pele he won the Paulista but state championships are losing their importance quickly with the National League front and center. Santos were decent in the basil serie aND Pele had a decent scoring average but he was not one of the top rated players at his position. Obviously he is not with the National team anymore either.
     
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  17. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I was wrong about gadocha he scored one but did not assist the other.
     
  18. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    #468 msioux75, Apr 13, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2016
    For the argentine league based players, I'd upgrade Pavoni and Bargas for 1972.
    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/primera-división-rankings-of-argentinean-football.1862688/page-3#post-26818744

    Both have a better domestic year than Ayala and Brindisi according El Grafico ranking (even being partial results). Also Pavoni had a strong Libertadores and Bargas arguably was the better argentine player in the Independence Cup 1972.

    The keeper Miguel Santoro had a strong year too in domestic league, Copa Libertadores and Independence Cup
     
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  19. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    What about "El Gringo" Babington for this year?
     
  20. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    I think he didn't reach the same level as the next year, 1973.
    Maybe for 1973, I take him instead Houseman in the top-23
     
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  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Bobby Moore did I think didn't he lol (if being harsh). Good case for Lubanski as MOTM but going off injured maybe? I've seen some good play from Deyna in the Wembley leg, but England had most of the attacks I know. Lato set up a goal and there were more English slips by Hunter and Shilton ofc. In hindsight Poland were a good enough team for them going through not to have been a shock I think, as they showed in the actual World Cup. It seems like Lubanski (slightly over Deyna) might have been regarded the best Polish player consistently before he did get injured, and certainly the most popular but it might be hard to call in terms of his best overall seasons (not sure how much you looked into him and what you think about that?).
     
  22. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I full expected to see Jairzinho here, he had a could competiton in the Brazil Indpendence Cup that had 15 teams across Europea, SA, Asia adn Africa, he scored winner agaisnt Scotland, another against a strong Yugoslavia, and the winner in the final versus Portugal.

    Tostao also, had a good finish in the SA PoTY, not sure what his performances were like and he had a very good 70 and 71 so either maybe he continued this form without major trophies or received votes of the back of these years.
     
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  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Nice call and info on Jairzinho:

    (50 minutes seems to be on Youtube but not watched it yet myself)

     
  24. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Re the top spots, four players (Beckenbauer, Muller, Netezer and Cruyff) have a good case for top sport, personally I lean towards Cruyff.

    Interesting point for Ballon d'or votes, all the players received either 21 or 22 votes.

    The number of first place votes was far more interesting, Cruyff just 3, Netzer and Muller on 5 and 7 respectively but Beckenbauer on 10 which is a big difference to Cruyff especially. I wonder what the resaon for Cruyff esepcially to recieve compartively low votes? Heavy weighting to Euro72 maybe?
     
  25. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Jairzinho's issue for the past few years has been he plays half of Botafogo's domestic games at most each season. I will give 72 another look though as I do remember including him in HM because of his international performance.

    I would strongly question how good Tostao was in 71 and 72 especially if our only evidence for his inclusion is SAPOTY position. 70 he was clearly great which is supported by his ratings and goal scoring averages. The same does not follow for 71/72.
     
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