Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists

Considering the importance given to winning the European Cup/Copa Libertadores/World Cup in all other years, why receives Pelé a free ride to #1 in 1964?

I've Pelé as #1 in 1964 too but this is the odd one out in your list. Eusebio in 1965 maybe too, with him as losing finalist.

 

Well, it did receive some attention (plus CWC campaign) and it returned in the 1969 vote. Just as with Albert in 1967, Yashin in 1963 and Matthews in 1956 it was (for a part) also a honor for his entire career since ~1960 (he had two weaker years, not just in numbers, in the middle of the 1960s).

 

I agree (as said) that Riva has a very strong case ("certain lock for top three"). Not only statistically across all levels but also on tape where he looks vibrant and dangerous (for 'underdog' Cagliari), stretching defenses. Some of them are on youtube.

But why is Muller ahead of Cruijff (in 1969)? I'm aware of the Ballon d'Or voting - that is always an uphill battle.

For the national team he's understandably ahead. He scored 5 goals against Cyprus (2 games), 2 goals in 2 matches against Austria, 2 goals in 2 games against Scotland, and 1 goal against Wales. Some decent opponents, but not the very best during the 'golden era' of the West German national team. It's obviously ahead though of playing a game against Poland (1 assist), a reasonably well game against England (with a few possibilities for an assist) and scoring and assisting against Luxembourg. Three games in total (even though that was mostly not his fault).

But in Europe for club (European Cup) it is the reverse. In a way reaching the 1969 final with a very different team as in later years was as great an achievement (scoring 6 goals in the process; his personal best in his career). Conceding 4 goals against Benfica, 2 goals against Spartak Trnava (conceded after him being kicked out of the match though) and 4 against Milan by the defense turned out to be costly and difficult to compensate for, in the end. Gerd Muller got out in the first round of 1969-70 European Cup against St Etienne without scoring in two games - so the situation is the reverse here. Cruijff had a strong start of 1969-70 Fairs Cup with three goals against Hannover 96 and Ruch Churzow. In further 1969 friendlies he scored 2 goals against Manchester City (English champion), 1860 Munchen and a few others.

In the league (and I understand the limitation of that comparison) it was 24 goals without penalties vs 30 goals with 5 penalties for Muller.

But OK, comparing goals is maybe not the best comparison given roles/positions, for level of play and indispensability. In terms of 'liveliness' (if that's a good criteria) I'd say he's of these six names matched/surpassed by Riva and Tostao (maybe Rivera at peak moments; but some already felt differently about the vividness/fouling/marking in the 1969 final for ex).

Riva at the 1970 World Cup is a very interesting case by the way, considering the defensive oriented team he was playing for.

75 - Which player has had the most shots at World Cups 1966 to 2014. Raining. #worldsvinest https://t.co/Ey1vJf03uX

— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) June 27, 2014

 

Ah yes, I see. Thanks. (I had Pelé as #1 for 1965 too, but these two didn't play h2h that year among other things; then had Eusebio as #1 for 1966 without much doubt)

 

Pedro Pablo "Perico" León is rated as the best peruvian player at 60s (not counting players overseas) and highly praised in South America and one of the best forwards in history peruvian, but I don't know which years he could have a good case. At first sight I'll say the years 1967 (topscorer) or 1969-1970 (whe he played most international matches).

Another that I'm surprised to not see him, is Juan Seminario, pichichi in the 1961-62 season, before his signing by Zaragoza he had two very good seasons in Sporting Lisbon, being called "Espresso o Lima", even the fans were upset when club sold him to La Liga. The year after the pichichi, he scored 8 goals in 8 matches for Zaragoza and then scored 10 goals in Fiorentina. So I think that 1961 and 1962 are very good years for Juan Seminario.

 

In 1969 I see many players from argentine league, but not mentioned Agustin Mario Cejas, the Racing keeper had his best individual season and also one of the few argentine players that keep his high level for the NT
http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/primera-división-rankings-of-argentinean-football.1862688/page-2#post-25359202

 

Was Pele in #4?

 

My take on 68/69 was (with less research!) that Rivera, Cruyff and Best might be competing for best in the world over that season. But it could be I'm having a blind spot on Riva there (perhaps feeling he's of a lesser standard peak to peak and feeling the other 3 weren't massively away from their peaks - Cruyff's overview and playmaking etc would be yet to fully come to the fore which would be significant but I think the 1969 EC Final performance does probably under-sell him as opposed to doing the opposite for Rivera). And perhaps comparing the full 1969 of South American players, Tostao is kept from being in fuller contention as the best, by his injury a while before the end of the year.

 

It's not true that the 'playmaking' (providing) wasn't there at all in the 1960s - and didn't play at times as a midfielder or even sweeper very sporadically. He tried to force things on his own and created some danger/shots on goal in the 1969 final, with little help from team mates. Rivera wasn't man marked. Rivera had some comments in FF.

To me it feels as unfair/injustice that apparently he's only really considered when he wins an European Cup, while e.g. Pelé and I assume Maradona (in 1979) will get a free ride in years for mainly domestic exploits (where not scoring in international club friendlies at all or scoring fairly lowly for a super national team will not matter).

Internationally for the club (competitive matches and friendlies against top teams as Liverpool etc.) and whenever he played for the national team (against ranked opponents as Hungary, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Poland and England) he delivered on a consistent basis throughout the years, as an individual (= sometimes own defense delivered an own goal...).

Interestingly, Trappattoni (who famously man marked Pelé with success) singled out Cruijff as one of the three most difficult opponents he played against in his career; to contain. And this (re: refereeing) is also true for him of course.

Yes, I think you're having a blind spot on Gigi Riva. Also on the footage he looks really strong there, and lively/fresh. Cagliari isn't the easiest team to play for...

 

Yes, I agree with your first sentence - he was always capable of creating things and assisting goals for sure. His own comments and some of journalists do say he became even better at it in effect I suppose, as his false 9 role developed (it is more of a positive observation about just how much of an influence he had in that way eventually).

Personally I do feel (generally but also ofc end product wise) Rivera excelled more in the Final but maybe some videos can exaggerate that (as good as the 4DFootball comparison video is and it is an enjoyable one, I tend to think it shows the best of Rivera and emphasises Cruyff losing the ball IIRC).

For me, I'd be increasingly wondering about Cruyff in season 66/67 or calendar year 1966 though indeed (for the calendar year I suppose it's just that there are a lot of high profile candidates for that year but I'd suggest he should be among the names picked out at least).

 

Yes, almost every player peaks as playmaker when they are 25+ years old.

I do feel looking at international exploits is a proper way for 'correcting' the league one played in. He played 20 international games in 1969 and scored 14 goals (however in 5 games he played 60 minutes or less), plus a significant number of assists. That includes teams as Juventus, ManCity (champions) etc. (you know the link)

That's also true for other players (Dalglish, Maradona in 1979 I'd say).

 

Yes, and for 68/69 season his impact (and the quality of one of the goals especially) vs Benfica was a big plus too.

Yes, Dalglish and Maradona were among my top ideas for 1979 (calendar year) in another thread ofc. And on that note, though it's a bit late, I'll add my thoughts on Pele for 1966 in that I wonder whether he could be viewed for slightly different but similar reasons (and maybe with a higher peak level) as similar to Tostao in 1969? Maybe the World Cup injury hindered not only his tournament but his overall year too? I think one example of a great goal is vs Czechoslovakia, but here's another example (albeit in a friendly) of the fact he was a/the key/star Brazilian up until the World Cup:

Pele vs Cruyff for 1966 could be an interesting discussion/debate in itself even perhaps (one at the end of his peak, or some might suggest first peak, one just establishing himself as a world class prospect)?

 

Yes, Pelé was despite world cup likely still the best in 1966.

The wider window is 1960-1966 I'd say (before that too immature and sometimes even subbed out because of that). The smallest window is 1961-1965. Anything smaller than that is very unreasonable.

Want to highlight though that I omit NT vs club games (I do at times include club vs NT games, where for ex. Rivera is taking on a national team with Milan, or that Ajax vs Spain in 1966 game)

 

Yeah, I understand why you do that from an achievement perspective. I just felt it was ok example to show him in good form (including the goal where he dummies the goalkeeper without touching the ball, slightly akin to what he would try in 1970). The goal vs Czechoslovakia is in a friendly ofc, but in those days they meant more and on the flip side not much Santos footage will be available to see.

I wondered about 1959, and even 1958 but you might be right. I know he did enjoy that period the most from one perspective as he became targeted for fouls etc more from 1960 onwards. The smallest window being 1961-1965 certainly seems right to me.

 

How do you think Peru would have done at WC70 with all their players, including those overseas? It would add Melendez at his prime, plus Benitez still playing well in Serie A at 33, and possibly the 35-year-old Joya.

Correa
Campos - Melendez - Chumpitaz - Fuentes (Cruzado)
Benitez - Mifflin- Chale - Joya (Sotil)
Cubillas - Leon (Gallardo)

Fantastic team with each line having a world class substitute, capable of actually winning the World Cup.

 

I would place Marzolini on the second team ahead of Schenllinger, and Melendez ahead of McNeill.

 

Benitez, Joya and Seminario were past it. Only Miguel Loayza was still playing at very good level.
Orlando de la Torre who played as CB was a warrior and really a great defender.
The real flaws in Peru 1970, were, imho:
- A good but nervous GK, I'd place a younger Otorino Sartor (CA 1975 winner)
- Benched the only DM in the roster to line up another CM, it was like pairing Didi & Gerson as mids. A midfield pair in Chale-Cruzado would be the right choice.
- The low form by Julio Baylon as RW, he was one of the top SA wingers by then.

 

Fair enough on Benitez, Joya and Seminario, I really didn't consider the latter as he was obviously past his prime. However, even with De La Torre playing well, no way is he a better choice over Boca Jrs legend Melendez.

I thought Cruzado was a starter at WC70?