Hale Announces New League

Discussion in 'Pro Indoor Soccer' started by skipper60601, Jan 31, 2016.

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  1. cardshopmd

    cardshopmd Member

    Sep 9, 2008
    Baltimore
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes I agree with you but he should not have to be financially responsible for another owners mistakes. A franchise system protects him and his money
     
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  2. Scooge

    Scooge Member+

    Jun 20, 2007
    Big Sky Country
    Club:
    Portland MLS
    The Blast have now posted Hale's halftime interview on their Facebook page.
     
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  3. KCWIZFLAG

    KCWIZFLAG Member

    Oct 31, 2002
    Gladstone, MO
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I actually prefer a franchise operation as well. I understand his need to protect his interests and I don't disagree. However, walking away from the table (taking your ball and going home) doesn't help things either. I'm sure he has talked until he is blue in the face about being franchised but the first thing that needs to happen is for the MASL to put in threshold guidelines that are a bit higher. Teams need to play in arenas and not "soccer domes" as Hale put it.

    I agree with a lot of what he said in that interview, but my post was to say that it seemed like the only person holding a grudge from last season is Hale and he isn't the guy who got head butted. Again, there needs to be an honest conversation with ALL owners of what is best for the league. Personally, I feel that the best thing for the league is to go to a franchise system, but even that won't protect you fully from getting sued. I work at a law firm and we defend against tons of lawsuits against companies who have everything lined up to protect themselves and they still find ways to end up in court on the wrong end of lawsuits.
     
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  4. SteveCo

    SteveCo Member

    Mar 23, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Any company could be sued at any time, certainly that is true. I have worked in HR and even when everything is handled correctly (such as firing an employee), the former employee sometimes will sue anyway. Changes in employment law are now blurring the line between the parent company & 'franchises'. That said, the franchise system provides at least more of a defense against other 'franchises' being dragged into the legal problems relating to one particular franchise. I hope the MASL can move into a franchise model & raise standards for team finances, Arena size, etc. A split league will not end well.
     
  5. IL Kicks

    IL Kicks Member

    Apr 23, 2013
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's interesting that Hale is now upset with the structure of the league and concerned that it leaves him vulnerable to other owner's legal woes since he was right there, in the beginning, when the MISL clubs merged with the PASL to create the MASL. He was, perhaps, the main character (as Baltimore arguably is the league's premier club, then and now) and could have (and should have) made his league structure concerns know at the inception of the MASL. Did he not have lawyers looking over the league's documents that advised him that this system may leave him open to potential liability issues?
     
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  6. the shelts

    the shelts Member+

    Jun 30, 2005
    Providence RI
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    He had a lot of concerns the whole time in MASL. I remember him saying he'd join with the Blast despite single entity status and the second year that it was one more year he was keeping the Blast in MASL until they could get the right legal structure.

    Hale feels like he took one for the team on this, I believe.

    .....and if he doesn't like some of the other owners in MASL, I'm confident they don't like him either. In business, you meet a lot of people you don't like or care for, but it's business.
     
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  7. IL Kicks

    IL Kicks Member

    Apr 23, 2013
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He may have had concerns at the beginning but that didn't keep him from joining the league. The time to establish the league structure was during the creation, not a couple of years down the road when all the other owners have based their business and operational plan on the agreed to structure. After all, Ed Hale isn't the only owner, there are others putting their personal wealth on the line to make a go for the sport. He didn't have a problem holding a season with two scoring systems depending on what city you were playing in (which was an embarrassment). In my opinion, he kept the league structure as one of the excuses he could use down the road to leave the league which could lead to a general collapse of the remaining MASL clubs (while blaming all the other owners he didn't like).

    The Blast has been in many leagues over the past ten years and the common denominator is that the Blast always survive while others disappear. That will probably be the case with this league and the next one and the next one.
     
  8. cardshopmd

    cardshopmd Member

    Sep 9, 2008
    Baltimore
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes this is a business , Promises were made and they never followed though. This league is a joke no one is at the head of the league anymore , We don't have a commissioner. Everything is done through a comity with in your division. Meeting are on the phone and most of the time Key players are not on the call. You cant run a a professional league from your basement..
     
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  9. Sting111

    Sting111 Member+

    Jan 17, 2011
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    The differences in team resources are so extreme that a single entity system is ludicrous. You can't have teams playing at rec centers considered as equals to those trying to create a professional environment. That said, a franchise system will never work without a strong league entity that can balance the egos of individual owners. If one owner is the only dominant personality of the league, the structure will fall apart as soon as any issues emerge that offends that one owner. I know that Ed Hale has shown tremendous passion for his team, the Baltimore Blast, but his involvement in any indoor soccer league only leads to disaster. Hale is only concerned about Ed Hale and sees his team as an extension of himself. I don't see how an Ed Hale Indoor Soccer league can benefit anyone but Ed Hale.
     
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  10. Mad Header

    Mad Header Member

    Mar 8, 2001
    Mt Prospect
    You need the teams playing in rec centers for the league to exist at all. In order to have reasonable travel opponents. Why does everyone keep forgetting that?
     
  11. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    Bingo.

    So while we may sympathize with the notion of Hale and others wanting to be off the hook for, say, Dion Earl being sued, the teams are ultimately in the same boat. If the Blast would like to have some opponents within driving distance who can give them competitive games on occasion, Hale needs to cooperate.
     
  12. Sting111

    Sting111 Member+

    Jan 17, 2011
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    What??? You need the rec center teams for the league to exist? Are you absolutely crazy? Every league is as strong as its weakest team! If you have rec level teams in your league, you are a rec level league. I understand that a team wants reasonable travel opponents, but the opponents must be held to some league quality standards. Mad Header, why do you keep forgetting that?
     
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  13. NSL2004

    NSL2004 Member+

    Jul 23, 2002
    The PASL/MASL is the only league this century with more than 7 teams. That isn't a coincidence.
     
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  14. Anubis

    Anubis Member

    Mar 17, 2014
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    You need them to exist because without them you about quadruple travel expenses per game for visiting teams. Chartering a bus costs roughly $2.5k a day with some variance. Picking up round trip airline tickets is going to vary a lot based on locations but generally let's just agree we are talking about hundreds per person. Oh, and in the end you have to get a bus (or comparable local transport) to get your team to and from the airport/hotel anyway.

    An $80k - 100k a season increase in costs is nothing to sneeze at in this league, even for the "big" boys. It's likely close to or more than the average gate per game for any team in the league.

    And if there were a bunch of new quality owners just queuing up to try and start quality teams to help replace those filler squads, to prevent these cost increases, where have they been? Trying to do instant transformations to "big league only" has been tried and failed several times already, just in fairly recent memory. It's basically a formula for teams going bust mid season and another league collapse/restructure after a few seasons.

    As I've said before, there are problems with the current MASL but the only sane path, that I can see, is to continue to work on fixing those issues while continuing to try and replace those filler teams with better options a few per year, while established teams continue building their fan bases. Going for some massive home run on a complete league restructuring is just downright silly.
     
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  15. Sting111

    Sting111 Member+

    Jan 17, 2011
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    So your saying that the purpose of having teams play in rec centers is to benefit other teams because they don't have to travel so far to play? Do you really believe that if those teams did not exist, overall travel expenses would increase exponentially? Teams still have to travel to these rec centers. Using your logic, why not just reduce the season to 10 games? That would reduce travel expenses by 50%. Talk about real savings!
     
  16. Sting111

    Sting111 Member+

    Jan 17, 2011
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    M
    That's right. The league with the most teams as well as the league with the lowest average attendance. That isn't a coincidence either.
     
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  17. Anubis

    Anubis Member

    Mar 17, 2014
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Um... to be as polite as I can be, are you serious? Most of those rec league teams were picked or created specifically to give a larger team more regional opponents for the express purpose of lowering traveling expenses. It doesn't take a lot of thought to figure out that a 4-8 hour bus ride that you can take and immediately turn around without even putting the team up at a hotel overnight costs a hell of a lot less than say, Sonora visiting Baltimore. That you somehow question this, with absolutely no explanation, is frankly rather amazing.

    And you don't reduce the number of games in the season because that would reduce the number of home games you have, hence your income. I can't even tell if you're just not thinking this out or maybe had one too many tonight.
     
  18. cardshopmd

    cardshopmd Member

    Sep 9, 2008
    Baltimore
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Standards need to be set in place end of story.. It is possible to have a rec center team play in the championship so that same game could only be attended by 835 people. In that case if it ever does happen. How can you ever expect to get a TV deal even it its for only 1 game. I honestly don't care how its done but things need to change. This is the Major ARENA Soccer League. Not the Major REC CENTER soccer league.
     
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  19. cardshopmd

    cardshopmd Member

    Sep 9, 2008
    Baltimore
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is what I think should be done , Anyone who believes in the franchised system should go to the IPL , in 2 divisions & the rest to the the MASL in 2 divisions , The Winner of each championship plays a best of 5 series . Kind of like a super bowl type of thing. bring in the WISL teams as well most of them are also in rec centers
     
  20. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Pffffft.

    You keep coming back to that bullshit, Syd (and you know I love you).

    Indoor is not moving forward, which would be the point of the exercise. Subsistence farming, great. If that's what you want, tremendous. But the Sacramento Surges and Brownsville Whatevers who exist to make San Diego's and Dallas' travel easier have that and only that as their reason for being. That ain't progress. That's shuffling cow chips around on the deck.

    Your point of view appears to be "Ah, so we lose Tulsa and Rochester and Wichita and Monterrey and Hidalgo and Beaumont in one offseason (BTW, how'd having close opponents help Rochester, again?), we'll just replace them with Sonora and Tijuana and Cedar Rapids! And when we lose Turlock and Harrisburg and Saltillo, we'll just replace them with three other schmucks! But we have more than seven teams, you guys!"

    You let bullshit people in your league, your league is bullshit, whether it's seven teams or 20. There are only a handful of actual, reasonable franchises in this league. The rest are just bullshit. And if they continue to be able to operate because of the difference between the cost of travel and hotel in one circumstance versus the other, that says a lot about where the sport is, doesn't it?

    This.

    Ed Hale has been, I would presume, in every freaking meeting out of which came the MISL2, the NISL, the acquisition by USL and the MASL. And yet, his solution is not persuasion or negotiation, it's pulling up stakes and heading to a new league which he'll get upset about the makeup of soon enough.

    Leaders build consensus and work from within to effect change if they see problems. Others cut and run.
     
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  21. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They would certainly increase. How much, well, someone else can do the math. But it's certainly more expensive for San Diego to go to Dallas than Tijuana and without the rec center teams, they'd be making a lot more trips to a lot more places you can't get to by bus. So, yes, overall travel expenses would increase.

    Buses are way less expensive than flights + ground transportation.

    If you can find a way (as one former NASL owner way back in the day seriously suggested) for teams to play more home games than road games, you'll have cracked the code.

    (And unless you're paying players by the game and not the month or season, you would not reduce your number one revenue generator by playing just 5 home games. That's silly.)
     
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  22. NSL2004

    NSL2004 Member+

    Jul 23, 2002


    The sport is not a great shape, but a league with Tacoma, San Diego, Sonora, Milwaukee, Missouri, St. Louis and Baltimore wouldn't last very long. And we have seen that over and over again since 1988.
     
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  23. Sting111

    Sting111 Member+

    Jan 17, 2011
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Don't take this question the wrong way, but have you ever taken a marketing 101 class? Ever heard the term brand equity? That is the perceived value a brand has with consumers. The MASL is a brand just like Pepsi and Ford. Having rec league teams play in a so-called national league, greatly diminishes the value of the brand. Again, every league is as strong as its weakest team.
    Also, have you ever taken a Finance 101 class? You say that each rec league team were picked to give a larger team more regional opponents. Please explain to me, why all of the rec league teams reside in one division. If I am Dallas, what benefit do I have for traveling to Brownsville and Saltillo having to play in crap facilities? There are absolutely zero gate receipts to be had. I risk injury playing these teams. Plus, most of them are not at the same talent level as others in the league. I would rather play a couple more games against teams that have some facility standards and has the prospect of drawing a few more people, than having to play at some crap facility with a handful of fans. So yo u save a couple of dollars while greatly diminishing any value the league may have or is trying to achieve. Not the brightest of business decisions.
     
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  24. EnricoSharke

    EnricoSharke Member

    Jun 14, 2009
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's more a brand like Blockbusters. Something very popular not long ago, but now barely hanging on by the tips of its fingernails. This is where indoor soccer is now. It does not, and will not, pack Chicago Stadium. That era is over for a dozen reasons, the primary one being the growth of the MLS and 'outdoor' soccer in the US.

    The MASL is not a national league, it's a minor league that happens to have teams spread around the country. In the past it was largely driven, I think, by people with a lot of passion for indoor soccer and a very little bit of money. It had problems, sure, but the merger with the MISL really exploded its problems and undermined its progress. I am all for Hale trying a different approach, and (hopefully) letting the MASL get back to its PASL roots and a slow-growth/long-game vision.

    Possibly, but a few years ago there were two indoor leagues, the PASL which was built upon "not the brightest of business decisions", and the MISL, which was the big-boy major league. It was the MISL that folded, not the PASL, and it was the MISL teams that fled to the PASL, not the other way around.
     
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  25. Anubis

    Anubis Member

    Mar 17, 2014
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Wow, a belief that any league in the past 20 years has absolutely any amount of brand value. Seriously, that level naivety is cute. People attending games (aside from us who care so much as to actually seek out and post about such things online) don't give a flip what the league is called, they don't care if it's single entity or franchise, and generally the numbers haven't been overly supportive of the idea that they even care all that much about the quality of opponent. The most consistent controller for attendance for the larger teams appears to be, in order; prime date/time slots for games, community outreach to groups including soccer camps, and winter weather conditions in northern areas. People appear to be attending because it's reasonably cheap family entertainment and their kid might have gotten excited because they attended a soccer clinic where they got coached by one of the players.

    The rec teams are also grouped mostly inside one division because they exist to give the Pacific division teams non-divisional opponents to play. If you eliminate that division you'd have to create a schedule where teams are now playing coast to coast in the regular season because there'd be no balanced way to have both the Eastern and Pacific division use the Central division as their non divisional opponents. That math just doesn't work.

    To answer you're Dallas question, doing the actual math straight up says it's better. Even being generous with the numbers it's better for them to eat $3,000 for bus rental and gas than it is to pay $18,000* for the team to travel and stay at Chicago for a 2,500 attendance game who's net gate likely comes out to... I'm eyeballing it at about $25,000(?) after discounting down for free sponsor and discounted group tickets. Even if they were splitting the gate 50/50 you'd end up comparing losing $3,000 for Brownsville vs losing $5,500 for Chicago (both figures already not including salaries). I've never heard the details about gate splits in this league, hell you're the first I've seen suggesting the existence of a visitor gate share at all, but if it exists I have some doubt it's as generous as 50/50 to the visitors. It'd be interesting info if anyone happened to have it and cared to share.

    This is all me being really generous with the numbers, in your favor, and making the assumption that there's such a thing in this league as a gate split despite having no evidence of one. And because a closer team being the away team for that Chicago home game might actually turn a profit (or at least less of a loss), there's opportunity costs there so to actual accountants looking at the league as a whole the prospect looks even worse than these numbers initially appear.

    I also had to bank on being able to schedule this long haul game after the holidays when travel is cheaper (doubt that will always be possible) and then it's not including the additional risks and eventual cost overruns that longer haul travel poses during the winter.

    Oh, also have fun traveling to Waza. I looked but haven't seen them reported in the attendance thread this year. Last year they had sub 700 a game attendance. I'm assuming with the legit horrible humanitarian situation going on in Flint that attendance has not improved. But to be fair, you'd likely just remove them from the league as well, based on attendance, despite playing in a reasonable facility and being playoff bound.

    *Note: This number is based on some quick research and includes; round trip airline tickets for team and minimal staff, doubled up hotel rooms, local transportation on both ends and team meals.
     
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