Top 5 individual performance in WC history

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Tribune, Nov 24, 2008.

  1. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Watched and related logically through 17 performance's at this point: http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/maradona-86-vs-messi-14.2008702/page-136#post-32974889

    Still the same Top 6

    World Cup performance index, considering statistics, the best (and worst) plays, importance and relation of quality of opposition and own team. Color highlighted as golden, silver, bronze ball, or not in Top 3.

    1.
    Maradona 86
    Messi 14

    3.
    Kempes 78
    4.
    Jairzinho 70

    5.
    Robben 14
    Cruyff 74
    7.
    Forlan 10
    8.
    Romario 94
    9.
    Eusebio 66
    Pele 70
    Rossi 82

    12.
    Schillaci 90
    Suker 98
    14.
    Ronaldo 02
    Charlton 66
    16.
    Ronaldo 98
    17.
    Zidane 06
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, he at least lined up in the middle of attack in a 4-3-3 but we could say the balance was more towards 'false' than '9' I think! In this game in 1977 he is playing more of a deep playmaking role (without spending much time at all in the CF position) though I'd say for example even though his colleagues were a lot of the same players - maybe this is how it would have been in the 1978 World Cup:
     
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  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, it leaves some good bits out though (it doesn't show he had both pre-assists). I remember I noticed that once but can't find the post back. In any case 8:22, 8:50, 22:20 and 25:50 is missing (the last one is certainly him and should have been included). Didn't look back the entire video and stopped skipping video past that 25:50 moment. It missed quite a bit anyway, for sure.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...er-1977-Total-Football-conquered-Wembley.html

    For role at 1974WC there's little doubt of course and can indeed be compared with Kopa in a way.
     
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  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, for quick reference re: the goals this one is good (he does play the pass to Neeskens at the start of it - that is on the other video I know but the goal isn't shown and it's not clear there will be a goal even though Cruyff's pass has opened the possibility; and it's his pass at 0:52 I think isn't it which I'm not sure about in terms of whether it's on the other video but the resulting goal isn't anyway):
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Hmm yeah. 'World Soccer' noticed him dropping back often during the 1966 Liverpool ties.

    The Footballs Greatest episodes for him and Ajax are quite good. In the first he himself says he was "still quite selfish" in 1966-67 when he was topscorer. The second clarifies he and Ajax became afraid for injuries and dropped back a bit (was still kicked though). You can also see my dailymotion channel and see those earliesh videos.

    Because you can listen Dutch, the famous 1996 documentary with Van Basten has some excellent comments too about how Cruyff exactly moved during his early years. (one master commentating on the other master ;) ) The gist being Cruijff was a striker until 1968, albeit an atypical one.

    Anyway this is about the 1974 World Cup and that has little doubt. False 9 / playmaker (apart from sweeper Haan the most passes of the entire team)
     
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  6. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Most passes of the entire team says it all. Hence why I am not completely sure of his false 9 status. Seems to me fitting the profile of a perfect playmaker who could switch roles between #9 and #10 seamlessly.

    But I am looking forward to hearing Van Basten's observations if you PM me the link to your dailymotion channel. That's interesting :)
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    No problem.

    Here are the two Football's Greatest episodes.

    Ajax (skip forward to 6:58)
    [This also comes back in Nico Scheepmaker his book if you've ever heard of it]
    Cruijff (skip forward to 4:00)

    Sadly, parts of that MvB documentary are deleted but you can hear the parts between 15:00 and 19:20 on youtube (for the full context)

    After 18:00 he summarizes it with: "Well, different. Look, Cruijff was... could do more as an individualist. But I think that I could do more as a center forward. Scored more goals, did more things for the team. He was more a wanderer through the entire field [running the show] whereas I was, say, aimed at the needle."
    Interviewer: "He was that at the start of his career, a striker [like that]."
    MvB: "True, but I also scored more goals in comparison with the start of his career. He had different things." But for the full picture and context you can look at the video.

    Probably Cruijff himself would tend to agree, because the first few sentences when he selected his own ideal XI were:
    In that ideal XI he had World Cup star performers as Beckenbauer, Carlos Alberto, Krol, Charlton, Maradona, Pelé included.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------


    Here's the channel:
    http://www.dailymotion.com/PuckvH

    For more insight about early days positioning you can look here and here (with which you can form your own thoughts). It has also articles about Eusebio:
    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...o-as-best-ever.2016490/page-244#post-32896777
    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/johan-cruyff-matches-and-goals-scored.1865250/page-79


    I know you're aware of the video where he explains the diamond in a rather chaotic fashion.

    Recently (September 2015) he had in his Telegraaf column some comments, which he translated into English (he has for the Dutch column a ghostwriter that make a structured article of his thoughts, but whispers/rumors go that he does English things by himself to prevent misunderstanding).

    Sorry if this post/answer has become too long!
     
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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks, that's interesting. Could it be argued he was asked to play as 'number 10' in a 4-3-3 back at Ajax and then Feyenoord in the 80's? He did it pretty well by all accounts anyway! But maybe he was not really positioned ahead of two other midfielders anyway. He didn't seem to be the biggest fan of 4-2-3-1 either according to that video you refer to did he.... I suppose it depends which type of player is employed in which position but I know what he means in terms of leaving two midfielders to be defensive (I'm not keen on that at all myself either, from an entertainment perspective, and I feel it's not ideal if they don't have much in the way of skills or vision and are not free to get forward, from an effectiveness perspective - sometimes it can be argued the 4 players ahead can make it worthwhile on both counts though I suppose, and that they get a bit more freedom).

    Yeah, 3-1-2-1-3 is exactly right isn't it (because the Dutch had previously sometimes used more of a 3-4-3 in a flatter system like in World Cup 78 at times I think?). Laudrup seems like he was number 10 for Barcelona in a lot of ways, but he is saying that in that system it was mainly Bakero at the top of the diamond positionally I see.
     
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  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Although I remember now he also said on that video, about 4-2-3-1, "I'm not that attacking as people think" or something so I think he also felt that two midfielders to do the defensive job is too little maybe (while not liking them to be so cautious/limited going forwards also). So, maybe we can conclude he likes midfielders that do a two-way job - in his 4-3-3 he would have 3 midfielders who did plenty of work going back but 2 of them would not be in any way defensive midfielders.

    Someone who has grown up with Total Football like him, might not be inclined to have such a specialised midfield I suppose. So maybe he feels a midfielders job is two-fold - to help defend and also to be constructive and aid cohesion.

    That's my best attempt at interpreting his take on it I think!
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #710 PuckVanHeel, Oct 25, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
    Yeah. I remember it's also in the English book with interviews (an interview from 1976). In 2004 he had also a series of six columns where he says that in all detail but takes too much time and space to put it here (now I found back I'll PM). But now I found it, he does say literally: "Like we did 30 years ago with Ajax and the national team". He also believes/explains that with a 'double 6' too much strain is placed on the full-backs for the build up phase (as a general tendency), the attackers will waste too much energy etc.

    Anyway, you're right with what you said. It's funny how the 'Numbers Game' book by two mathematicians conclude a few times that he felt it intuitively (and strange quotes turn out to be true).
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Saw now the Tele Santana comments on the wiki! (incl source)

    Also interesting that Guardiola has not a preference for a double six either, although he is more pragmatic (Perarnau said getting rid of the double six was the first thing he did, but turned that back for a while although it still has his preference)
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, I see on Tele's Wikipedia this now:

    With regards to role models, Santana has mentioned in one interview that he had no idols, though: "my greatest satisfaction would be to manage a team such as 1974 Holland. It was a team where you could pick [Johan] Cruyff and place him on the right wing. If I had to put him in the left-wing, he would still play [the same]. I could choose Neeskens, who played both to the right and to the left of the midfield. Thus, everyone played in any position
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    He also likes midfields that can press energy efficient and close out the most dangerous passing channels. He thinks as a rule of thumb a midfield with one six can do that better as with two sixes. Also saving energy for the forwards etc.

    Laudrup was used as a 9 too. In many seasons Bakero scored more league goals than Laudrup (except for 1991-92 and 1992-93, but it was very close).

    That made me think and type the reply that it is of course difficult to make too generic statements about playing positions for many players. We know Cruijff debuted and played the first number of games as a '#8' (thus more like an inside-forward or half-back at a stretch). Then a season later he was asked a couple of times to play with #6 on midfield, which he would peculiarly later apply as Ajax manager to his protege for a dozen of consecutive matches. That work in progress website with assists (but incomplete thus far and also very strict) at least seems to hint relative selfishness in 1964-65 and 1965-66. In 1966-67 the assists skyrocket, assuming it as a proxy for selfishness, and assume the skyrocketing isn't because of more and better verification/information.
    http://www.afc-ajax.info/

    Yesterday the 2010 World Cup manager (often seen as the antithesis in style but not in interpersonal contact apparently) said he's one of those dinosaurs whose type of game would transform "well" to the modern era (his opinion). Also that he played against him and knows he would make it into an elected World XI of his day at "almost every outfield position". He also started with "I have no idols or people I look up to with deference", funnily.

    Do you think Laudrup in 1986 and 1998 could be compared to Kopa in 1958?
     
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  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, he liked his team to condense space and get the ball back early didn't he. His and Guardiola's teams aren't the same in every conveivable way I suppose, but that idea came from Cruyff's philosophy I'm sure.

    Yes, some players it is difficult to categorise with a shirt number like that - Neeskens could also be a '6' or '8' or a mixture of both roles I suppose. The pressing idea might have been instilled in Cruyff due to his days playing with the Dutch NT? I suppose all 3 midfielders (and the whole team) engaged in a lot of closing down opposition players in the 74 World Cup, including Van Hanegem albeit I suppose he wasn't as able or as expected to do as much of that in that team as Neeskens and Jansen, and his role was more to spray the ball around and use it intelligently.

    Did Laudrup often play as '9' in the 3-4-3 do you think then? I think he was a player whose role must've changed according to Cruyff's system and formation at any given time, but of course he played as false 9 at times between two wing-forwards - in the 1992 European Cup Final he might be playing behind Salinas and Stoichkov (some line-ups seem to suggest he started the game operating in the same area as Bakero before becoming more of a forward later I think, but the team and Laudrup himself played in a fluent way so maybe it's hard to recognise exactly which role/position has been designanted).

    I guess it's hard with Kopa due to the formations of the day being different, and the limited footage of some games (we can probably get a good/proper idea from the two full ones though) but I might suggest his 1958 role was a mix of Laudrup's in 1986 and Laudrup's in 1998 (supporting the forwards and dribbling the ball into attacking areas, but also doing a lot of prompting and playing creative passes). Roughly speaking I'd compare Laudrup 1986 to Maradona from the same year in terms of function (maybe even more of a 'forward' although both players roles did change a bit during the WC) and Laudrup (Michael) in 1998 to Zidane from that year (maybe even more of a 'prompter' due to the age difference).
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Got that book now here, which has also that ideal XI included (though I got the part of the explanation from the internet - pulled through google translate). He had Laudrup indeed under the 'center forwards', and the wide men (Stoichkov) were often supposed to score, but also making assists for Bakero or who else played there. Some good comments about this CF position/role plus team involvement/movements resulting in concentration, involvement and becoming technically better/smarter (making analogy with his own experiences), as his staff experienced as well. Saw today in FourFourTwo that Lineker said "his system was made for a striker like me". Would have been interesting to see what had happened if he had accepted his right winger position. Difficult to tell whether Lineker has a point in feeling unfairly treated - it did gave the team better results though. Here's the evidence for the CF thing:
    [​IMG]

    For completeness & right interpretation the full Lineker question and quote:
    Show Spoiler

    How surprised were you the first time Johan Cruyff put you on the right wing? Would it be fair to say you didn't always see eye-to-eye?
    Joe Sprighly - via email

    Very fair! In those days clubs were only allowed two foreign players and it was quite clear from an early stage that Cruyff wanted his own foreign players. That's understandable, but instead of coming over to me and saying, "I want my own people; maybe we can get you a move that works for everyone", he messed me about. While he clearly should've played me upfront, because his system was made for a striker like me, he stuck me out on the right wing. He did it to piss me off in the hope I'd go squealing to the press, but I wasn't that daft. I understood what he was doing. I knew his game, so I did the professional thing and got on with it. I buggered up my goal ratio that season! He was a great coach. It was fabulous to be involved in his training sessions - he had such innovative ideas. He was a pundit for the BBC at euro 2000 and we were fine. It's certainly not something that still bothers me.


     
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  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, the foreign player rule was a big consideration then. Theoretically Laudrup could play behind Lineker I'm sure, but then he would be more a number 10 and Cruyff didn't want a system with a number 10 behind a main striker and as you say the success he had vindicated his decisions. At times Laudrup would have played as AM or support forward, but also it could often seem like he was doing in effect when he had that (false) centre-forward role. In 93-94 he did occasionally take the left of diamond position in a 3-4-3 diamond of course so maybe he'd done that a bit in prior years too even. Salinas was used a bit from a nominal right wing position I suppose once Lineker had gone but whether Cruyff was enticing Lineker to decide to leave or not, it's probably true he wasn't looking to play an on-the-shoulder striker in the CF position (Romario eventually went to Barca but was a different type to Lineker, other than having great movement and goal poaching ability in the box).
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    How close was Thuram for you?
     
  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I actually had him in squad 1 Puck (I had to check for sure by finding my post). Whether I think he's worth the highest (or among the highest) average rating over all World Cups I'm not sure so maybe there's a case that I don't rate him as high as others but that's not saying I'm correct and they're not. I remember babaorum asked about that Croatia performance I think when I listed 20 individual performances earlier in the thread, and I felt it was definitely good and of course clutch but compared to Bobby Moore vs Germany (who didn't score goals of course but did assist them) say I felt Thuram was giving the ball away a bit more for example and that might keep him outside of a top 20 list for individual performances perhaps (for me; again not for everyone I'm sure - there are many good ones that must be close, for example Cubillas vs Scotland in 78 too, and Thuram vs Croatia probably has to at least be in that sort of contender/close category too overall).
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    After some back and forth discussion I realized that I hadn't made one for the national team debut. Maybe that gives an idea (although it's NT and not representative perse). Probably the high point is the through ball at the end (likely I also missed some scenes but it gives an idea outside of the goal). But this is already the 1966-67 season, just as the two 30 minutes highlights against Liverpool that are available.
    http://www.voetbalstats.nl/opstelnedxi.php?wid=287



    Some retrospective commentaries:

    Match commentator of that time (whose commentary hasn't been saved): "It's a long time ago and I'm an old man, but I remember very well that Cruijff played decent but not great. When I saw the video back I got the confirmation: he saw little of the ball and dissapointed a little."

    Writer of well-referenced and researched history books: "Besides not everything was beautiful. 2-0 ahead became 2-2. The condition of Orange was lagging way behind. In particular Piet Keizer barely participated in the second half."

    http://www.volkskrant.nl/archief/cruijff-viel-tegen~a798420/
    http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4324/Nieu...-Japanners-er-toch-weer-ingetuind-rsquo.dhtml

    With regards to playing position etc. I thought it might interest you.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I looked at all Denmark 1986 group stage matches and for Laudrup I think you'll like the second half of the Scotland game. He played unlike the first half deep in midfield and he played good/clever (the pre-assist, though technically tough to execute, was also from him). You're familiar with Uruguay (though I don't understand why they were pushing so much), and against West Germany I saw his first few touches and those were unusually off. He didn't play bad or detrimental (he had one and sometimes two players one him who followed him like glue; he pulled gaps in central defence) but looking more detailed he didn't look as quick, vis-a-vis his own team mates, as in the other games I'm sure. Whether he was carrying an injury or just coped worse with heat/humidity as other players is difficult to say. It was Morten Olsen his stand out match for sure.

    Youtube link to match
    See 1:43:17 for one that isn't in most highlights (I remember) or 1:46:30 for interesting post-game commentary and 53:34 for half-time remarks. Where they think the turn (18:30) happened too easily.
     
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  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks.

    I think out of his games the Scotland one is closest to the Uruguay one (where I've seen everything) in terms of how much I watched via TV/internet - like I said by PM I'm guessing I didn't watch every minute of it in 1986 itself. From what I have seen I know what you mean, but it could be interesting to study his change in role then - perhaps he was, like Maradona, switched around a fair bit, although he only played 4 games - vs Spain he was playing from the wing moreso at the start I noticed (and not in great form I'd say, though in the second half that seemed to change a bit and he forged a couple of good chances with excellent play).

    I've said this for a few players now without doing it yet (after my Albert & Charlton/Eusebio 1966 videos were completed) but it could be worth making a video for Laudrup or Laudrup/Elkjaer for the Scotland game when I get round to watching the full version you posted then.
     
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The 1:43:17 pass is a very good one certainly - can't be sure whether I saw it before, but maybe as Elkjaer's play came to nothing that is a reason it might get left out of some highlights.

    The turn after 18:30 that leads to the shot is what he was typically very good at so I didn't listen to what was said at half-time yet but not sure I'd agree it should/could have been easily stopped. Just watched that without sound again now actually, but I seem to recall some praise for it by commentators in-match. I suppose it's all about perception though and what seems 'reasonable' to have been expected to do - not to go into it again lol but ofc I was thinking that Messi goal in the Spanish cup final did seem to have been preventable (I did have some wavering thoughts after my initial idea though).
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I'd like to see a download link so I can see the full show (good that they debunk the phantom goal myth that has lived on powerfully for 50 years; match went wrongly into overtime anyway) but there has been a 1966WC final analysis recently on SkySports. Some can be viewed on internet too.

    http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/1966-world-cup-final-youve-never-seen-it#:kBXbtpinUxhTKA

    Not everything is clear to see, but a few very informative things as the 'average position' and suchlike can be discerned here (although they got the assists made in the final wrong?).
    http://cargocollective.com/barryslater/WALLGRAPHIC-1966

    http://payload195.cargocollective.com/1/5/173125/6203038/FINAL-Boardroom.jpg
    http://payload195.cargocollective.com/1/5/173125/6203038/DSC_0177 copy.jpg
    http://payload195.cargocollective.com/1/5/173125/6203038/1966 1.jpg
    http://payload195.cargocollective.com/1/5/173125/6203038/DSC_0189 copy.jpg
     
  24. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    No Ronaldo, I'm surprised
     
  25. Mamadou Dio

    Mamadou Dio New Member

    Liverpool FC
    Jun 10, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Senegal
    Cameroon 1990!! Weakest team!! Actualy quite the opposite, one of the strongest teams at the tournament.
    How the Hell for a team that performed majestically well and reached the quarterfinals stage being classifiled as one of the weakest teams of the tournament in such list.
    Algeria 1982!! Who shown a combination of skill and speed and beat European Champion West Germany (arguably Germany's second best generation), who also hadn't lost a competitive match for three years when the european rivals failed to do so.
    Cameroon 1982!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! N'kono and Milla at their prime.
    Who made this ???
     

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