Okay, Humbertito is an idiot, that's true. But do you really think you have the next Aimar or Mascherano in that group? Maybe the next Passarella or Ortega? The next Pedernera, Charro Moreno, Labruna, Di Stefano, Sivori...? I suspect that if River right now was producing young players of that caliber, you wouldn't have to be bragging about beating some Turkish club in a friendly tournament, by via of a penalty shootout.
So is the problem more that Argentina has just had a lull in how many top class players is producing, or is it slightly that problem exaserbated by the fact that what players are discovered and nurtured are off to Europe far too early. Now as a european football fan I can see the lure of the money and competition of the big leagues over here, that being said surely Argentine clubs as the producers suffer because the make negligable profits on young players they have developed (Cassassola for example) and they also never benefit from having them come into the team therefore they are forced to spend money, which in turn develops a cycle where they sell the youngsters early as they need money to buy players to take positions that the youngsters should be taking. Also the players themselves don't get to develop in an environment that supports them, is closer to home, is of the same culture they are themselves, and where they will be afforded time and patience from fans as they are 'one of them'. Take Cassassola for example, a young player coming up through Boca's ranks with high hopes as to his ability and potential. He is now playing for the youth/ reserve team (he may be on loan somewhere now I'm not sure) of a side in the bottom half of Englands second tier of football. Not a club with the prestige of Boca but a mediocre championship side in London, and what makes it worse is that he was sold for very little and was never able to repay Boca on the pitch for what they had done for him off it. I get that the economic life blood is the production and sale of players, but surely if you develop them and intergrate them to a higher level, over a longer period of time, your financial beneifts will be similarly improved.
Those players you're listing are some of not just the giants of argentine football but world football some of the best players of all time. Its completely unrealistic to expect so many great players to continue coming from Argentina. Look at how Italian football has dried up... The best players in the league are still Totti, pirlo, and buffon the same three guys who won them the world cup in 2006. Even luca toni is still around scoring for Verona... Theres just don't seem to be as many top players around as there used to be. That being said, River is proud of our team because they beat a club with a world star like Sneijder when it was our reserve team minus 6 pibes with the Sub 20 (including the stop scorer of the tournament btw) and we have 5 pibes who are currently with the professional team. And yes, IMO Kranevitter is going to be the next Mascherano. He was River's best player before his injury, while Balanta and Pezzella are two of the classiest CBs i've seen im y life time, and pezzella's goal clinched us a continental tournament. So while Boca may not be producing talent, that doesn't mean River isn't. And maybe, if you recall, during Boca's most successful period your best players were all bought by Macri... Riquelme, Palermo, Guillermo, Abbondonzieri, Ibarra, Samuel the colombian contingent Cordoba, Serna, Bermudez, if he'd been allowed to, Macri may have just bought Argentinos Juniors whole youth system back in 97 I'm not saying that boca never produced a top player, Burdisso and Tevez (even though tevez was also bought from All Boys) or that River hasn't bought foreign stars, but you just can't compare the production line of the two clubs, Boca lags way behind. And @BocaBoiUK you are missing the difference betweeen mismanagement and selling players. Angelici is a horrible president for boca, and River fan would want him to win reelection while every boca fan i know wants him out. Boca paid more money for Cassasola than they sold him for. Thats nothing short of incompetence it's the necessity to sell either. Its stupidity and corruption of the highest level to buy a kid for a million dollars and sell him for 750k.
Boca's Cantera has produced great players, from the very early days of professionalism (Lazzatti, Varallo, Pescia etc), until those active today today (Tevez, Gago, Banega etc) and everything in between (Boye, Rattin, Rojitas etc.). Of course players like Riquelme and Tevez can be considered from the cantera, because Boca acquired them as youth, and they made their debut with Boca. My point is I don't see players at that level coming from Boca today. Or frankly, from River. Maybe you think Kranevitter is the next Mascherano, and maybe he has the potential to be, maybe he's an exception to the lack of talent coming up relative to other eras, and maybe in time you'll be proven right. But be honest, "todavia le falta mucho" to put him at Mascherano's level. And Pezzella might be classy, but he's no Passarella. Might as well say that Forlin is Ruggeri.
Kranevitter is a player of very different characteristics than Mascherano... Masche is more rustic, more "matar o morir" for every ball.. Perhaps he doesn't have many assists or participation in goals, but he'll kill himself to recover every ball. Kranevitter I actually see as the exact opposite: he doesn't recover too much, but his vision and understanding of the game is excellent for his age. I only think they compare the two because they are two of the more promising 5's to come out of our youth division, but their style of play is very different. Anyway, I do agree with RiverGaucho that River's cantera is still producing.. How could you argue that it's not when players like Lamela, Kranevitter, Balanta, Pezzella, Tucu Pereyra, Cazares, etc. have come out of it only in the last few years? ... if we step back a little bit more, you also have the generation of Falcao, Higuain, Augusto Fernandez, etc. Boca's youth divisions have never been nearly as fruitful, but they do seem drier now than before. I don't think it helps when pibes like Leo Suarez run away on free transfers to Europe, though.
Balanta, if he doesnt keep accumulating minor injuries will be world class as well. But if you look at the highest rated young players Argentina has in the world, how many did anything memorable in Primera? The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Vietto, Iturbe too, but he hasnt been great at Roma. Big clubs have become unnecessary middle men for cash strapped smaller clubs who can sell their young talent elsewhere. The game has changed. Argentina to me (as an outsider who is also right in the middle of it all), has a bit of an identity crisis when it comes to football. The seleccion got it back with Sabella, a defense who will break your face and once youve worn youself down trying to break them down, they score on you with individual brilliance. Kids aren't trained the same way, nor do they view football the same way. I blame playstation, but kids want to wear the shiniest boots, have the best hair on the field, and score the best goal youtube has ever seen. This may sound stupid, but how many players even have long hair anymore? El Polaco Bastia? jaja and thats a bad look, but still. It just feels like a formula that has produced the biggest successes this country has seen, at the national and club level, has been abandoned in an attempt to be Brazil. I think that has influenced the type of player that these clubs are producing. I dont know if this sounds dumb or not, but its how it feels to me.
If you don't think the players I listed from the current generation (Lamela, Kranevitter, Balanta, Pezzella, Tucu Pereyra, Cazares, etc) are really great players, then I don't know what you think a great player is. Any of those players would easily start for Boca... all of them are current NT players, except Kranevitter and Pezzella (although Martino said he's watching those two veeery closely), and none of them surpass 23 years of age. Give them time to develop.. They've already shown more than a lot for their age. You can't expect every single player to be a Messi or Passarella from Day 1.
Yeah, but Argentina always produced great players. I can say guys like Erbes, Colazo, Sanchez Mino, Araujo etc are good. But somehow it's not the same level that we were used to seeing in the past. Or maybe I'm getting old
Yeah, but that's different. Those guys you mentioned are on the level of say Buonanotte, Bou, Cirigliano, Ramiro Funes Mori, etc... Good players, but not quite there. Lamela, Kranevitter, Balanta, Pezzella, Tucu Pereyra, Cazares are a few levels above and all have the potential to be top players, with nothing to envy of past generations. When Higuain, Falcao, Mascherano, etc. were still in River, people were giving the same argument that the youth divisions were no longer the same... And look at them now: they're some of the best players in the whole world. But anyway, I give up..
Mascherano i remember when he left River in 2005, the River fans gave him a giant ovation and said "a mascherano nunca lo vamos a olvidar" and the fans of other clubs were sort of dumbfounded as i recall saying why do they love this kid. 8 years later he is a national hero leading argentina to a world cup final as the key player even over Messi. Sometimes it hard to not look through gold/yellow glasses in your case or red/white in my case... On Pezzella- yes he's probably not as good as Ruggeri or Passarella, but he is a damn good player. He was the captain of a Sub 20 team that surrundered just 1 goal (on an invented penalty i may add) on a team being coached by Perazzo that had no organization and relied on German to organize the team from the back. He's 23 and has also now scored a goal that won an international cup, he scored a goal that won a Super Final against San Lorenzo, oh and you may remember, he scored a goal against Boca- and despite his offensive prowess, his defensive game is actually his strength along with playing the ball on the ground out of the back. So sure, Pezzella may not be the next Ruggeri or DAP, but to be one of them he'd be one of the top 10 defenders of all-time- how high are your standards? I wouldn't be surprised if in 2-3 years Pezzella is playing a big european team- maybe not a real madrid or a barcelona- but a roma/atletico madrid type team and he'll be a key guy in the national team and all the bosteros and fans of other teams will be bowing to him like they do with mascherano. Balanta is 21 and has already played a world cup and was being ovationed by the river fans after 5 games in primera- he is a crack of cracks. Another guy who in 2-3 years will be in a big european team
I knew Mascherano was a star when he left for Brazil, as was Tevez, of course. Corinthians scored a coup at the time. I don't question Lamela, he's a star. I can see Balanta becoming a star, too bad he's not Argentine. The others have potential but it's premature to say. And Cazares was a pro transfer from Ecuador, not sure you can claim him as cantera.
I would however question Lamela specifically. Since his move to Spurs he has shown flashes of talent but not much more then that, to say he is 'great' is a big step, the word 'great' is thrown about far to casually in football. Here is a sub question then. Has the overall quality of the league and the loss of an 'identity' as Steazy eludes to, compounded the dimming brightness of the stars being homegrown and developed in Argentina now? Because I have to say the quality of the APD has fallen away dramatically, however this is something that could be levelled at SA in general the Club World Cup showed just how wide the gulf has become between Europe and SA, Real played the Libertadores champions at a canter, treating it as little more then a trainng match. And yes the financial gap is HUGE but it wasn't that long ago Boca beat Real's galacticos. And clubs of the prestige and calibre of Boca and River should not become second class on world football. Now it is impossible to match the financial clout of the EPL or La Liga but the best way to combat it is to cultivate talent like a natural resource. Becomming self sufficient as a club through the development of players would yield better results on the pitch and in the finance books. I say this not to bait, but if the level of football and players in Argentina continues to fall away then players like Balanta, who look fantastic, may find the jump to European football too great, then none of us will be able to claim we produce any players of note anymore.
If you can claim Riquelme, River can certainly Cazares. he joined when he was 17 and won the sub 20 copa libertadores. Riquelme had never played for Argentinos' first team, but he had played in the reserva and Macri paid out a huge sum to bring him to boca... There was a reason riquelme never celebrated goals against them and why he went to play for them in the B and it was his homecoming. Cazares never debuted for a club in Ecuador, his first professional games were for River during the Copa Argentina in the 2011-12 season. And he is a crack. He's already scored goals for the full national team
You're being overly dramatic man. Any one will admit the level of football has dropped in Argentina, but Argentina clubs dominated continental cups this season and we are doing well in the sub 20 despite having a pelotudo as the coach. Argentina will always produce top players, be they argentine or foreigners who move to argentina like Falcao, James, Balanta, Cazares, Alexis Sanchez, etc. I gave the example of Vietto, who was a good/decent player with promise at Racing but at Villarreal in spain he's already a star. Dybala never even played in first division, he was in the B with instituto and he never even helped them ascend to primera, yet now in italy he is a giant star people saying he is worth 40 million. I, like most argentines, am SUPER critical of my country, whats happening politically and socially is a disgrace and a stain on the country, but when it comes to football, I am not depressed at all... I mean like I said, what players is spain producing? Since the xavi/iniesta generation they have no one coming through which is why they were shamed in brasil. Same with italy, they're still calling up a 36 year old pirlo to run their midfield and their big promise Balotelli is a complete fraud and joke of a player- see what happened to them in brasil. Same with your country england...
He was a youth player of Barcelona in Ecuador, played in 2009 for Independiente del Valle (also known as Independiente Jose Teran), played for them 16 first division matches and scored 9 goals. He was then loaned to River, I think he was 18 or 19, he played 2 first division matches, and then when River finally signed him officialy, he was loaned to Banfield. Then he went back to Ecuador, and then back to Banfield. Who knows, the guy might end up playing a bunch of games for River, or maybe they'll sell him overseas without ever really playing for River other than those two games. But I don't see how you can claim him for River's cantera. I don't see a parallel with Roiquelme. Roman was signed in 1995 from Argentinos as a youth to play for Boca's under 20 team. He was 17. He played for Boca's youth team and made his debut in the first division team a year later at 18, and continued playing for Boca Juniors for many years.
LOL.. Don't always believe everything you read on Wikipedia. Much of what you claim is wrong. To start off, those numbers are absolutely wrong. Cazares was still a prospect while with Independiente (who were still in the Ecuadorian second division at the time, may I add): He never scored 9 goals there, and I doubt he played that many games. In fact, most sources I've read say he only played one game there before moving to Argentina. He then came to River on a tryout and stayed. He wasn't loaned to us, although later some matters would have to be resolved regarding his transfer with the Ecuadorians. He then was placed in the Quinta Division and made his way up during the 3 years he spent in inferiores, eventually gaining recognition with his superb performances in the U-20 Copa Libertadores. He then left due to some dirty business that we aren't informed much on, but that's another story for another day. So sure, he wasn't fully developed by River, but we did have an important part in his formation and gave him his first professional steps. Like Gaucho said, if you claim Riquelme as a Boca product -when the guy joined at the age of 17 from Argentinos Jrs.-, then you can't say Cazares isn't a River product. Sorry to all the bosteros for diverting the topic of the thread.. just wanted to address what was incorrect.
Yeah, I got much of the info from Wiki, so guilty as charged. But I do remember him playing mostly for Banfield, I don't remember ever seeing him with River, to be honest. Okay, to get back on topic, I remember when Monzon was at Boca, he was pretty good joining the attack, he had a dangerous shot from distance, but he was a bit weak on the defensive end. I wonder if during his time in Europe he improved that aspect of his game, because otherwise it could be a concern. If Monzon could lock the left, with Peruzzi on the right, it would make a huge difference. I wonder if Colazzo would move to midfield, or go to the bench. I think midfield is his natural position. Boca -depending on any new signings- could look something like this: Orion Peruzzi - Cata - Torsiglieri/Rolin - Monzon/Colazzo Melli/Fuenzalida - Erbes/Pablo Perez - Gago - Pavon/Colazzo Calleri/Martinez - Chavez/Gigliotti Plug in a Bryan Ruiz or Gaston Ramirez as an attacking central midfielder, and you got on paper a pretty damn good team.
So far Boca looks great on paper but that has been the case for quite some time now. Hopefully Vasco can lead this promising team to very big things. Ruiz would be crazy I would love to see that!! It is probably a long shot....
Angelici does not have a middle point, does he? It's a ********ing idiot: he "can't pay the price for Forlín (2.5 mill USD)" but yes can pay the price for Brian Ruiz, what is, If I am not wrong, 50.000.000 of Pesos. Such an stupid fat ass. Well, by other side, I think we are the team who contracted best players for the new season. I mean, isn't Messi or Bale, but is Peruzzi (?) Greetings to all.