Jozy and the Footycats: Altidore at Sunderland

Vs. Newcastle away, Feb. 1st 2014. Excellent tactical performance, opening spaces, drawing defenders, and being the nuisance that left open spaces for Borini and AJ to destroy the Magpies.

 

Is this a done deal? Anyone have any actual source that says the deal is signed?

@bshredder @BostonRed

 

you mean stumble and shoot yourself in the foot instead?

 

http://www.tsn.ca/toronto-fc-completes-swap-deal-altidore-to-toronto-defoe-to-sunderland-1.181889

Although the swap has been completed, Altidore is not yet a Toronto FC player. Altidore played for the New York Red Bulls from 2006-08, meaning he would have to go through Major League Soccer's allocation process for re-entry into the league. Toronto FC sits sixth in the allocation rankings and the club doesn't believe any of the teams ahead of them have interest in the player (Montreal, San Jose, Colorado, Chicago, Houston). However, there is sentiment among many the league would prefer to see Altidore land with an American based team, namely back with the Red Bulls. Toronto FC wants to keep the player. But depending on how the process plays out, they may be forced into a settlement with said team ahead of them in the allocation rankings if they decide they want Altidore. Again, Toronto FC doesn't want the cash transaction; they want the player.

 

still, if Defoe's style is effective it's not like Jozy should be incapable of that adjustment - he's got a good shot from distance, for instance - and then it's squarely on him.

If, on the other hand, teams find it easy to double Defoe out of the game, Wickham or Fletch or Johnson or Llarrssonn aren't able to exploit whatever space is created by Defoe that Jozy didn't create, then we'll have a good sense that maybe Jozy's stint at S'land should be treated as lost years, esp if Jozy is able to get his touch back in MLS.

 

Except JK has proved that he has his guys just like every coach does.

There are no other strikers that currently have a history. As instinctual as JK sometimes seems, he is not putting an unproven entity at striker.

 

I wish Houston wanted him.

 

In case you haven't checked are options are limited, MLS is basically all we have. Who other than Johansson, give them to me?

 

This sounds a little far-fetched for me. TFC lose value without the guarantee of getting value? Not only do they lose value, they have to negotiate with 5 teams who could, if they want, screw TFC and take Jozy with their allocation standing. Either the story is hokey, or MLS is pretty bloody dysfunctional. I don't doubt that allocation is what it is, but I have to think that TFC had its duck in neat rows in terms of signing Jozy prior to allowing their player to leave without any compensation.

 

Well, the press doesn't report the under-the-table stuff.

As the Jones saga proved, the MLS, in what respects transfers from abroad players, is quite dysfunctional.

 

I get that, but neither NE or Columbus had parted with a multi-million pound asset to obtain Jermaine's signature. They had a significant outlay to get Defoe, and unless they got cash from S'land, waiting in line hoping to get Jozy is madness.

 

You can stop. All Sunderland strikers ARE bad.

Sunderland still lack an attacking midfielder to provide service so they'll likely still create a minimum of chances. Defoe gives you a runner in behind, a poacher, and a finisher.

As for comparing his scoring to Jozy in MLS. Jozy in MLS is irrelevant. Two different standards. Lower level of play, very little public scrutiny, far less media coverage, slower pace, far worse defenders (Omar Gonzales vs. Vincent Company), a lot more space to play in. Probably no threat of getting benched.

Agreed.

The Best Soccer Show podcast made the same point. That Altidore to a Canadian team was a weird move for MLS because a US National team player isn't exactly a huge draw.

 

Actually, the one Canuck player everybody knows is Christine Sinclair, their female Donovan, basically the one that has put them on the map again, has won all the awards there are to win, and has broken all the records there are to break. She's 31 already, has had a long career, and will be retiring soon.

Otherwise, around here, most people who follow soccer are Gunners fans. Who knows why. But many people here who follow soccer cannot name their men's team current starters. Yet they know who played against Stoke on Sunday.

 

How are there two different standards of Defoe in MLS v. Jozy in MLS? Sure the personnel won't be exactly the same, but you really would be hard pressed to design a better experiment than swapping Defoe - a proven EPL and MLS scorer, with Jozy, a proven MLS, Eredivisie and international scorer.

It will be really interesting to see what the exchange will produce. If Defoe scores in the EPL for Sunderland with anything close to his historical numbers, my argument that it is S'land, not the strikers, that are the problem gets pretty heavily smashed.

If, on the other hand, Jozy comes to MLS and gets back to his MLS/Ered/USMNT historical averages, or, ideally a bit better, and Defoe does not impact at S'land, then it gives more credence to the idea that Jozy was just basically Jozy and S'land is not kind to strikers of any (affordable for S'land) skill set.

Hopefully the swap happens, both get to play a decent amount without injury and we get to see how things work in parallel universes.

 

I'd kill to see what Wright-Phillips would do at Sunderland.

 

Well, he was Jozy-esque at City for sure.

 

1 - I fully agree, that has been my big complaint about him for at least a year now.

2 - Altidore has created tons of space for Sunderland. That is the one thing no one can complain about in his play there.

 

However, Defoe can take the ball from half court and bury it or get a shot off on half chances and bury it. Basically, defoe is there to get those 'chance' goals. He doesnt pass. Ever. Never. He's lockeroom cancer at this point in his career. This was a stupid play by Sundy. THey should have taken the hit on wages, shipped jozy to swansea and just put johnson up top. He doesnt defend anyway.

 

They aren't. I was talking about the standard of the EPL vs. the standard of MLS.

It means nothing. My entire point is Jozy scoring in MLS doesn't prove anything about his failure at sunderland. He could lead the MLS is scoring. It doesn't mean he's he didn't flop twice in England. That's not even an issue. It's settled. It also doesn't mean Sunderland doesn't suck too. They do. They still have no attacking midfielder to serve their strikers regardless of who they put up top. I don't think they can turn the corner until they get one or Giaccarini starts playing to his potential their. But hell Wondolowski can score in MLS. That doesn't prove he can get it done outside of MLS. This notion that Jozy will come back and play well in the MLS and people will be able to go "See, that proves it's Sunderland's fault not Jozy." i think is misquided. That dye is cast. The epl is sink or swim. He sunk. His level is likely Eredivise standard. That's not the end of the world. I'm not gonna say Sunderland is good, or they have no issues. They do. They have a crap squad. Jozy was just part of it. He's just not gonna prove himself in MLS to anyone but the bigsoccer choir. I'm just not gonna act like he's some great player. He is what he is. He'll do fine in MLS. It just won't prove anything.

And even if Defoe can't score, what does that prove. Defoe is a gamble. People thought he was done anyways. I think the title of this article "Sunderland’s desperate gamble that Jermain Defoe can still hack it" shows that there is still a question of whether Defoe is even competent to score either. http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/14/jermain-defoe-signs-sunderland-toronto-mls
They could have simply replaced an ineffective striker with a washed up ineffective striker. It's not like he lit up MLS either, granted he had an injury.

Last night on Talksport, where i first heard this, an American reporter came on and said it is NOT a done deal. He explained that Toronto are not first in Allocation and that in the event one of the other teams says they want Jozy they can jump in front and make a deal, and then also Toronto would like have to buy the allocation off of them. If it's a swap deal maybe another club coming in would screw that up. He also mentioned that, to paraphrase, "as we've seen with the Lampard deal and the Dempsey deal that MLS has a history of not being transparent and rigging the system so that a player goes to the team they want" and thus if MLS want Jozy they'll fix it so the deal can get done. Maybe they would force a three way deal with players going from Toronto to the team with the Allocation. I don't fully understand that MLS allocation process. But considering how Sunderland need scoring I kinda think Defoe will go no matter what if Sunderland is paying cash, which is what they say is being done: Jozy and cash for Defoe.

Edit: Just saw this article saying Defoe "to sign" so it's not done. http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/14/jermain-defoe-signs-sunderland-toronto-mls
BUT: Defoe is training with Sunderland so it looks like it's well on it's way. It also says Jozy has agreed to terms and is waiting on MLS to ratify the agreement.

 

Almost half TFC's games are played in the U.S.

 

Ok. if you not interested in the question of how much Jozy's issues were the set up in S'land, then, of course, this experiment will have no interest for you, which is fine.

If you are at all interested in that question - and I happen to be - then you can (or should be able to) see how this swap is interesting.

 

Defoe will get his goals early. Then he wont produce. Then he will get used as sub. Then will score as a sub. Then start, then not produce. then sub again. Then he will complain. Then the lockerroom gets involved. Then puyol is under the gun again. But those early goals might lead to 10 league points. A gold mine.

 

No, not a done deal yet, but it's all over - and I do mean all over - the UK broadsheets as a straight player swap. Like others have said, MLS's byzantine allocation "rules" have to be sorted out first. Then it can be announced.

 

If he can grab them 6 to 10 points he saves their season.

 

Drop Bruin and put Jozy up top? That'd be awesome. Sadly we don't have the needed roster spots so we'll pass.