The (http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/great-world-cup-teams-that-never-were.2005683/) thread got me thinking about great generations of footballers from countries. Some great generations did not get to play together and prove themselves on an international level for a variety of reasons. England's greatest generation of footballers did not get to play with one of their greatest contemporaries, Duncan Edwards, because of his early passing. Hungary's Golden Team, as powerful as its front line was, did not have all of its top attacking players available for selection because players abroad (Kubala, Nyers) were not included in the national team. Similar things occurred in Argentina in the 50s. I want to measure the quality of a generation by the total achievements of all the players in it, not just how well they performed together for the national team. For example the generation of English players in their primes in the late 1970s were major underachievers with the national team, but were major parts of English clubs dominating European Football. My goal here is to simply define a generation as a group of players born in the same country in a certain time period. The time period took a little tinkering. I first looked at players born within 5 years of one another but this was too small a time period, as my goal was to grab a group of players who played together or could have played together because of their similar ages. With a 5 year time period players like Hidegkuti and Puskas, who clearly were part of the same generation and played together for much of their career could not be in one generation (Hidegkuti born in 1922, Puskas born in 1927). I then moved the time period to 10 years which seemed a little to big and players who were not associated with one another or careers did not really overlap in a meaningful way could be grouped in one generation (Domingos da Guia 1912 and Zizinho 1921). I settled on 8 years as the time period to use and in general it works relatively well with the reality of players careers. Usually on one team an 8 year gap between players ages in the maximum you see unless one player is very young and the other as unusual longevity. I decided to strictly limit players to the country they were born in to limit confusion and grey areas. In theory we are looking for the best generations of players produced by a country or region. In some situations you have players move to a country at a very young age and you could still argue they were "produced" by the country they played for. Lillian Thruman moved to France at the age of 9 and most if not all of his football education and career was in France. Players like Eusebio or Coluna developed the early part of their careers abroad before moving to the country they were associated with in their late teens. They clearly were not developed in Portugal in my opinion. To eliminate grey areas like Lillian Thurman, and arguments about ethnicity (which by my definition has nothing to do with who produced a player, Thierry Henry and William Gallas were born in France so they were available for French generations) I simply used where the player was born to determine eligibility. This interpretation hurts a number of excellent footballing generations, largely the two mention earlier. France's World Cup winning generation loses Thruman, Desailly, Viera etc and Portugal's generation of the 60s loses Eusebio and Coluna. To make things simple for comparing generations of players across different time periods I have defined players by their roles not positions (http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads...-function-not-position.2009089/#post-30813593). I have gone through each country and tried to identify their best generations. Then once that is complete it would be interesting to try to define the best generations among all countries.
To start off I will tackle one of the all time great footballing countries Brazil. The first generation of players I wanted to capture was a generation built around Leonidas and Domingo da Guia. Going any earlier in time to players like Friedenreich does not make sense to me as there are not enough top players around Friedenreich to create a strong generation. I will list players in relative order for their importance/achievement/talent for each "role". Leonidas/Domingo da Guia generation stretches from 1910 to 1917. This was the generation of footballers that were in their primes for the 1938 World Cup that Brazil preformed well at. Finishers Leônidas da Silva (Leonidas) Waldemar de Brito Carvalho Leite José Perácio Leonídio Fantoni (Niginho) Sylvio Pirillo Uriel Fernandes (Teleco) Chance Creators Rodolpho Barteczko (Patesko) Hércules de Miranda (Hércules) Elba de Pádua Lima (Tim) Luís Mesquita de Oliveira (Luisinho) Romeu Pellicciari (Romeu) Controllers José Augusto Brandão Zezé Procópio Aarón Wergifker Afonso Guimarães da Silva (Afonsinho) Martín Mercío Silveyra Defenders Domingos da Guia Jose de Oliveira Junqueira Goalkeepers Algisto Lorenzato (Batatais) The strength of this generation is in the finishers and chance creators. There were enough excellent strikers, inside forwards, and wingers that many excellent players had difficulty getting into the national team. A player like Teleco is considered one of the greatest Cornthians players ever. He was top scorer in the Paulista 5 times (a record) and won four Paulista titles but to my knowledge never got capped due to the presence Leonidas and Carvalho Leite among others. The weakness of this generation is among the controllers, defenders, and goalkeeper. There is decent depth at controller but none of the players were really considered the top halfbacks of their time in South America compared to contemporaries from Argentina (Ernesto Lazzatti, Jorge Alberti) and Uruguay (Obdulio Varela, Michele Andreolo). There is major lack of depth at defender with da Guia being an all time great but not much after that. Zizinho/Ademir generation is from 1920 to 1927. This is generation of Brazilians that built strength through the 40s culminating in the 1949 South American Championship win and the 1950 World Cup final appearance. This generation also includes players who went on to be important veterans in the 1954 World Cup. I would say this is the generation that really elevated Brazil's status to a world power. Finishers Ademir Marques de Menezes (Ademir) Heleno de Freitas Albino Friaça Cardoso (Friaca) Oswaldo da Silva (Baltazar) Carlos Alberto Zolim Filho (Carlitos) Adão Nunes Dornelles (Adãozinho) Chance Creators Thomaz Soares da Silva (Zizinho) Jair Rosa Pinto (Jair) Osmar Fortes Barcellos (Tesourinha) Cláudio Christovam de Pinho (Cláudio) Francisco Aramburu (Chico) Francisco Rodrigues José Lázaro Robles (Pinga) Yeso Amalfi Pedro de Araújo Simão (Simao) Elísio dos Santos Teixeira (Teixerinha) Manuel Marinho Alves (Maneca) Controllers Danilo Alvim Jose Carlos Bauer Rui Campos Antenor Lucas (Brandãozinho) Moacir Lamb (Biguá) Ely do Amparo (Ely) João Ferreira (Bigode) Jaime de Almeida Waldemar Fiume Defenders Nilton Santos Augusto da Costa Juvenal Amarijo (Juvenal) Olavo Rodrigues Barbosa (Nena) Goalkeepers Moacir Barbosa Nascimento (Barbosa) Carlos José Castilho (Castilho) This generation sports excellent depth at all positions. Finishers is headed up by an all time great and has good depth with very well thought of players in Heleno de Freitas, Fricia, and Baltazar behind for depth plus two all time great goal scorers from the Campeonato Gaucho in Carlitos and Adãozinho. The chance creator group is fantastic with amazing depth. Claudio is considered by many the greatest player in his clubs history (Corinthians) and led a signature club of the time to multiple championships but he could never get major playing time at inside forward because of Jair and Zizinho. Teixerinha is in a similar situation as one of the great Sao Paulo's sides top attackers but few caps to show. The group of wingers also has great depth but not quite the star power of the inside forwards. The controllers are deep with Alvim and Bauer heading up the group. The defenders are the weak spot of the team with one all time great players who came in at the tail end of this generation, but outside of that the players involved are not considered the best at their position outside of Brazil. The two goalkeepers are solid but not spectacular. Didi/Garrincha generation is from 1928 to 1935. This is in contention for the greatest generation in football history. Pele was not born until 1940 so he is difficult to join with this group of players. Despite Pele's absence I believe this group has more overall quality than any generation that can be made with Pele in it. Finishers Waldir Cardoso Lebrêgo (Quarentinha) Edvaldo Izídio Neto (Vava) Evaristo de Macedo Filho (Evaristo) Paulo Valentim Waldo Machado da Silva (Waldo) Aluísio Francisco da Luz (Índio) Chance Creators Manuel Francisco dos Santos (Garrincha) Waldyr Pereira (Didi) Júlio Botelho (Julinho) José Macia (Pepe) José Ribamar de Oliveira (Canhoteiro) Mario Zagallo Dorval Rodrigues (Dorval) Sidney Colônia Cunha (Chinesinho) Joel Antônio Martins Edvaldo Alves de Santa Rosa (Dida) Vladem Lázaro Ruiz Quevedo (Delém) Luíz Trochillo (Luizinho) Paulo César Araújo (Pagão) Controllers José Ely de Miranda (Zito) Dino Sani Roberto Belangero José Ferreira Franco (Zequinha) José Mendonça dos Santos (Dequinha) Mílton Alves da Silva Defenders Djalma Santos Mauro Ramos de Oliveira (Mauro Ramos) Orlando Peçanha de Carvalho (Orlando) Hilderaldo Bellini Nílton de Sordi Zózimo Alves Calazães (Zózimo) Valdemar Rodrigues Martíns (Oreco) Dalmo Gaspar João Carlos Batista Pinheiro (Pinheiro) Jordan da Costa Goalkeepers Gylmar dos Santos Neves (Gilmar) Félix Miélli Venerando (Félix) Finishers lack an all time great superstar but has a number of excellent high quality players. The chance creator group is likely the best group of chance creators ever produced by a generation in or outside Brazil. The log jam of great wingers for example is amazing with Garrincha, Julinho, and Dorval all competing for caps on the right and Pepe, Canhoteiro, and Mario Zagallo all competing on the left. The controllers are strong behind to greats in Zito and Dino Sani. Unlike the previous Brazilian generations there is depth and quality in defense as well as two solid goalkeepers. Pele/Altafini generation from 1937 to 1944 and the Pele/Tostao generation from 1940 to 1947. These are in my opinion the two best ways to build a generation around Pele. It is possible to stretch from 1933 to 1940 and get Pele (1940) and Garrincha (1933) in one generation but that does not have the overall quality that these two choices have in my eyes. 1937 to 1944 Finishers Edson Arantes do Nascimento (Pelé) Jose Altafini Antônio Wilson Vieira Honório (Coutinho) Toninho Guerreiro Procópio Cardoso Servílio de Jesus Filho (Servílio) Flávio Almeida da Fonseca (Flávio Minuano) Roberto Lopes de Miranda (Roberto Miranda) Chance Creators Jair Ventura Filho (Jairzinho) Ademir da Guia Gérson de Oliveira Nunes (Gerson) Jair da Costa Amarildo Tavares da Silveira (Amarildo) Mengálvio Pedro Figueiró (Mengálvio) Controllers Wilson da Silva Piazza Antônio Lima dos Santos (Lima) Olegário Tolóí de Oliveira (Dudu) Denílson Custódio Machado (Denílson) Defenders Carlos Alberto Torres Everaldo Marques da Silva (Everaldo) Rildo da Costa Menezes (Rildo) Roberto Dias Djalma Pereira Dias Júnior (Djalma Dias) Hércules de Brito Ruas (Brito) Altair Gomes de Figueiredo (Altair) Goalkeepers Haílton Corrêa de Arruda (Manga) Raul Plassmann 1940 to 1947 Finishers Edson Arantes do Nascimento (Pelé) Eduardo Gonçalves de Andrade (Tostao) Antônio Wilson Vieira Honório (Coutinho) Dario José dos Santos (Dadá Maravilha) Toninho Guerreiro Flávio Almeida da Fonseca (Flávio Minuano) Roberto Lopes de Miranda (Roberto Miranda) Chance Creators Jair Ventura Filho (Jairzinho) Ademir da Guia Gérson de Oliveira Nunes (Gerson) Dirceu Lopes Jair da Costa Valdomiro Vaz Franco (Valdomiro) Natal de Carvalho Baroni (Natal) Controllers Wilson da Silva Piazza Antônio Lima dos Santos (Lima) Denílson Custódio Machado (Denílson) Alcindo Martha de Freitas (Alcindo) Defenders Carlos Alberto Torres Everaldo Marques da Silva (Everaldo) Rildo da Costa Menezes (Rildo) Roberto Dias Joel Camargo Mário Peres Ulibarri (Marinho Peres) Goalkeepers Raul Plassmann I bolded the major names unique to each generation. The core of Pele's generation remains mostly the same with either group (Pele, Coutinho, Jairzinho, Ademir da Guia, Gerson, Jair da Costa, Piazza, and Carlos Alberto Torres). The major additions for the 37-44 group is Altafini, Amarildo, Mengalvio, and Manga and the 40-47 group is Tostao, Direcu Lopez, and Dadá Maravilha. Not sure which one I prefer. Overall the Pele generations have just as much top quality as the Garrincha/Didi generation but lack the depth of quality it had, especially at controller and defender. Pele's generation is probably ahead at finishers and close behind at chance creator despite the lack of depth comparatively since the top quality is so good for Pele's generation (Jairzinho, Ademir da Guia, Gerson, Jair da Costa, and Direcu Lopez/Amarildo and Mengalvio). I will continue the Brazil generations post Pele in another post.
Lilian Thuram was born in France mate. Guadeloupe is part of France juste like -let's say- Hawaï is part of the US.
Just Fontaine could be an issue for you too. He was born in Morocco -which was a French colony back then- from French parents. He should be included definitely. Anyway, to be honest I don't really understand your criteria of selecting players based on their birth location. Leaving out players like Luis Fernandez, Jean Tigana, Marcel Desailly or Patrick Vieira looks... weird to me to say the least .
It is strange but then you get into a lot of grey areas with players like Kubala, should he count as part of the Spanish generation or Hungarian generation or both? What about Josef Bican, same issue. I guess an easy way to get Tigana and Fontaine in is that they were born in French colonies (at the time of their birth). What would be their citizenship status? Same with Gérard Janvion, Christian Lopez, Christian Karembeu etc. Fernandez, Desailly, and Viera are harder to make a case for.
The first post Pele generation is one of the deepest generations ever. Seeing it makes me wonder how Brazil did not perform better in the 1974 or 78 world cups, especially 1978 when most of this generation was at its peak. The Rivellino/Zico generation stretches from 1949 to 1956. Finishers Carlos Roberto de Oliveira (Roberto Dinamite) Sérgio Bernardino (Serginho Chulapa) Gilberto Alves Vanderlei Eustáquio de Oliveira (Palhinha) Chance Creators Arthur Antunes Coimbra (Zico) Roberto Rivellino Sócrates Brasileiro Sampaio de Souza Vieira de Oliveira (Socrates) Dirceu José Guimarães (Dirceu) Paulo Cesar Lima (Caju) Jonas Eduardo Américo (Edu) João Leiva Campos Filho (Leivinha) João Soares Almeida Filho (Joãozinho) Paulo Isidoro de Jesus (Paulo Isidoro) Jair Gonçalves Prates Mário Sérgio Pontes de Paiva (Mário Sérgio) Controllers Paulo Roberto Falcao Leovegildo Lins da Gama Júnior (Junior) Antônio Carlos Cerezo (Toninho Cerezo) Clodoaldo Tavares de Santana (Clodoaldo) Paulo César Carpegiani (Carpegiani) Francisco das Chagas Marinho (Marinho Chagas) Manoel Rezende de Mattos Cabral (Nelinho) João Batista da Silva (Batista) Zenon de Souza Farias (Zenon) Adílio de Oliveira Gonçalves (Adílio) Defenders Luís Edmundo Pereira (Luis Pereira) Edino Nazareth Filho (Edinho) Marco Antônio Feliciano Wladimir Rodrigues dos Santos (Wladimir) José Oscar Bernardi (Oscar) José Maria Rodrigues Alves (Ze Maria) José Rodrigues Neto (Turibio) Celso Dias dos Santos (Celso) Goalkeepers Émerson Leão Waldir Peres de Arruda (Waldir Peres) João Leite da Silva Neto (João Leite) The depth and quality of chance creators, controllers and defenders is outstanding. But as apparent in the 1982 squad there is a severe lack of finishers. Roberto Dinamite is the only one really worthy of mention, the others listed are borderline for even being part of the generation at all as they are average players. Two players usually associated with this generation are Eder and Reinaldo, they were both born in 1957. Moving the generation a year younger would lose 1949 one of the most productive single years I have yet to see, producing Clodoaldo, Émerson Leão, Leivinha, Edu, Ze Maria, Luis Pereira, Carpegiani, Caju, and Rivellino. Another option for this generation is moving it two years older to pick up Tostao in 1947. This would lose Toninho Cerezo, Edinho, and Celso. It might be a bit better that way and would be more representative of the teams possibilities in the 70s if Tostao had stayed healthy, which would have filled one of the teams biggest needs. The Tostao/Zico generation would stretch from 1947 to 1954. Finishers Eduardo Gonçalves de Andrade (Tostao) Carlos Roberto de Oliveira (Roberto Dinamite) Sérgio Bernardino (Serginho Chulapa) Gilberto Alves Vanderlei Eustáquio de Oliveira (Palhinha) Chance Creators Arthur Antunes Coimbra (Zico) Roberto Rivellino Sócrates Brasileiro Sampaio de Souza Vieira de Oliveira (Socrates) Dirceu José Guimarães (Dirceu) Paulo Cesar Lima (Caju) Jonas Eduardo Américo (Edu) João Leiva Campos Filho (Leivinha) João Soares Almeida Filho (Joãozinho) Paulo Isidoro de Jesus (Paulo Isidoro) Jair Gonçalves Prates Mário Sérgio Pontes de Paiva (Mário Sérgio) Controllers Paulo Roberto Falcao Leovegildo Lins da Gama Júnior (Junior) Clodoaldo Tavares de Santana (Clodoaldo) Paulo César Carpegiani (Carpegiani) Francisco das Chagas Marinho (Marinho Chagas) Manoel Rezende de Mattos Cabral (Nelinho) João Batista da Silva (Batista) Zenon de Souza Farias (Zenon) Defenders Luís Edmundo Pereira (Luis Pereira) Marco Antônio Feliciano Wladimir Rodrigues dos Santos (Wladimir) José Oscar Bernardi (Oscar) José Maria Rodrigues Alves (Ze Maria) José Rodrigues Neto (Turibio) Humberto Monteiro Mário Peres Ulibarri (Marinho Peres) Goalkeepers Émerson Leão Waldir Peres de Arruda (Waldir Peres)
Kubala and Bican effectively played for more than one country so yes, there is an issue with them. But with Fernandez, Desailly and Vieira we're talking about players who played for only one country, who came to live in France while they where children (respectively at 9, 3 and 8) and more importantly whose citizenship was never questioned when they played with France. Just my two cents.
From this point on the Brazilian generations lack the depth of the predecessors but still have some excellent quality. The Careca/Romario generation is from 1960 to 1967. Finishers Romário de Souza Faria (Romario) Antônio de Oliveira Filho (Careca) Wálter Casagrande Chance Creators José Roberto Gama de Oliveira (Bebeto) Raí Souza Vieira de Oliveira (Rai) Renato Portaluppi (Renato Gaucho) Crizam César de Oliveira Filho (Zinho) Jorge de Amorim Campos (Jorginho) Luís Antônio Corrêa da Costa (Müller) Paulo Silas do Prado Pereira (Silas) José Ferreira Neto (Neto) Controllers Carlos Caetano Bledorn Verri (Dunga) Ricardo Rogério de Brito (Alemão) Cláudio Ibrahim Vaz Leal (Branco) Geovani Faria da Silva (Geovani Silva) Iomar do Nascimento (Mazinho) Defenders Aldair Nascimento dos Santos (Aldair) Júlio César da Silva (Julio Cesar) Ricardo Roberto Barreto da Rocha (Ricardo Rocha) Mauro Galvão Josimar Higino Pereira (Josimar) José Carlos Nepomuceno Mozer (Mozer) Ricardo Gomes Raimundo (Ricardo Gomes) Ronaldo Rodrigues de Jesus (Ronaldão) Goalkeepers Cláudio Taffarel Armelino Donizetti Quagliato (Zetti) This generation has the two great strikers the previous one needed. It also has a very deep group of defenders, probably Brazils deepest ever, and rivals the Garrincha/Didi generation for the best group of defenders produced. The chance creators are deep but there is only one truly great players there. There are two ways to create a generation around Ronaldo. One is to with players born before him most importantly Rivaldo, Cafu, and Roberto Carlos. The Rivaldo/Ronaldo generation is from 1970 to 1977. Finishers Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima (Ronaldo) Rivaldo Vítor Borba Ferreira (Rivaldo) Élber de Souza (Giovane Élber) Mário Jardel de Almeida Ribeiro (Mário Jardel) Chance Creators Antônio Augusto Ribeiro Reis Jr (Juninho Pernambucano) Anderson Luís de Souza (Deco) Edmundo Alves de Souza Neto (Edmundo) Alexsandro de Souza (Alex) Osvaldo Giroldo Júnior (Juninho Paulista) Djalma Feitosa Dias (Djalminha) Marcelinho Carioca Giovanni Silva de Oliveira (Giovanni) Márcio Amoroso dos Santos (Márcio Amoroso) Denílson de Oliveira (Denílson) Controllers Roberto Carlos da Silva Rocha (Roberto Carlos) Marcos Evangelista de Morais (Cafu) José Roberto da Silva Júnior (Ze Roberto) Émerson Ferreira da Rosa (Emerson) Gilberto Aparecido da Silva (Gilberto Silva) Marcos Antônio Senna da Silva (Marcos Senna) Sérgio Cláudio dos Santos (Serginho) Marcos André Batista dos Santos (Vampeta) Carlos Luciano da Silva (Mineiro) Gilberto da Silva Melo (Gilberto) Juliano Belletti Flávio Conceição Defenders Júnior Baiano Goalkeepers Marcos Roberto Silveira Reis (Marcos) Nélson de Jesus Silva (Dida) Rogério Mücke Ceni (Rogério Ceni) Carlos Germano Schwambach Neto (Carlos Germano) This generations stregths are the two all time great finishers and the massive number and high quality controllers made up of wingbacks and defensive midfielders. The clear weakness is at defender with all the high quality defenders were older ones from previous generation or younger ones that are in the next Ronaldo generation. The second Ronaldo generation would be to get players younger than Ronaldo, mainly Ronaldinho and Kaka. The Ronaldo/Ronaldinho generation is from 1974 to 1982. Finishers Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima (Ronaldo) Adriano Leite Ribeiro (Adriano) Luís Fabiano Clemente (Luís Fabiano) Chance Creators Ronaldo de Assis Moreira (Ronaldinho) Ricardo Izecson dos Santos Leite (Kaká) Antônio Augusto Ribeiro Reis Jr (Juninho Pernambucano) Anderson Luís de Souza (Deco) Alexsandro de Souza (Alex) Márcio Amoroso dos Santos (Márcio Amoroso) Denílson de Oliveira (Denílson) Controllers José Roberto da Silva Júnior (Ze Roberto) Émerson Ferreira da Rosa (Emerson) Gilberto Aparecido da Silva (Gilberto Silva) Maicon Douglas Sisenando (Maicon) Júlio César Clemente Baptista (Júlio Baptista) Marcos Antônio Senna da Silva (Marcos Senna) Marcos André Batista dos Santos (Vampeta) Flávio Conceição Carlos Luciano da Silva (Mineiro) Gilberto da Silva Melo (Gilberto) Juliano Belletti Josué Anunciado de Oliveira (Josué) Elano Blumer (Elano) Defenders Lucimar Ferreira da Silva (Lucio) Juan Silveira dos Santos (Juan) Ânderson Luís da Silva (Luisão) Goalkeepers Júlio César Soares de Espíndola (Júlio César) Overall I would say this generation is a little better than the first with the big boost to the chance creators and a few more good defenders.
I struggled with the points you are bringing up especially with them coming to the country so young all their footballing education takes place in France so they really were produced by the French football system. Also I guess that Eusebio and Coluna were from Mozambique when is was still a Portuguese colony.
I guess my new policy will be that players who moved to a new country and were capped in that country once their football careers were ongoing will be part of generations for their original country. So Deco and Marcos Senna will be part of Brazilian generations (they were capped by European countries because they could not get into the Brazil side so it makes sense that Brazil's depth should be reflected with them as part of the generation) and Kubala and Bican will be Hungarian and Austrian respectively etc.
Nice thread Tom. I made another "generation players" thread, but not around two ATG as you do, but around the WC cycles (including Olympics). I based on the ELO and variables "not factor" as depth of players, club result to ranked a top-10 for each WC. It's a work in progress, too. http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/greatest-generations-in-footballs-history.1381429/
One thing to consider is that goalies used to reach their primes later than field players (let's said 4 years later). So, is common to see into the same generation on into their primes to "field players" with 21 y.o. and goalies with 34 y.o. But, I understand if you want to stay things simple.
Good thread. Yours is more based on results with the national team. A results analysis also is based on who is playing together at the time. Mine like you said is a more total depth of players from one country in a time period and not based on when players are performing with the national team. So England's generation in the 70s will still make a good generation of players in my analysis because of their club success and overall quality but looking at the results of the national team, failing to qualify for two world cups would make it a poor generation. I am not really building the generation around two all time great players, but trying to build the best generations possible overall. Just using two of the key players to name them because the years players are born is kind of abstract, Brazil's 1928-1935 generation does not really mean anything but the Didi/Garrincha generation does.
My analysis also takes into account players not in the national team. This will be more relevant for nationals like Uruguay and Hungary who would lose players abroad that would then be capped for other countries.
Ranking the generations by role: Finishers 1) Pele/Tostao or Altafini 2) Ademir/Zizinho 3) Didi/Garrincha 4) Leonidas/da Guia 5) Ronaldo/Rivaldo 6) Romario/Careca 7) Ronaldo/Ronaldinho 8) Zico/Rivellino Chance Creators 1) Didi/Garrincha 2) Zico/Rivellino 3) Pele/Tostao or Altafini 4) Zizinho/Ademir 5) Ronaldo/Ronaldinho 6) Romario/Careca 7) Ronaldo/Rivaldo 8) Leonidas/da Guia Controllers 1) Zico/Rivellino 2) Ronaldo/Rivaldo 3) Romario/Careca (both Josimar and Jorginho should be controllers) 4) Didi/Garrincha 5) Zizinho/Ademir 6) Ronaldo/Ronaldinho 7) Pele 8) Leonidas/da Guia Defenders 1) Didi/Garrincha 2) Zico/Rivellino 3) Romario/Careca 4) Pele 5) Zizinho/Ademor 6) Leonidas/da Guia 7) Ronaldo/Ronaldinho 8) Ronaldo/Rivaldo Goalkeepers 1) Zico/Rivellino 2) Didi/Garrincha 3) Zizinho/Ademor 4) Romario/Careca 5) Ronaldo/Rivaldo 6) Pele 7) Ronaldo/Ronaldinho 8) Leonidas/da Guia Overall 1) Didi/Garrincha 2) Zico/Rivellino 3) Zizinho/Ademir 4) Pele/Altafini 5) Romario/Careca 6) Ronaldo/Rivaldo 7) Ronaldo/Ronaldinho 8) Leonidas/ da Guia For me Didi/Garrincha is clearly the best followed by Zico/Rivellino clearly second. Then the Zizinho, Pele, and Romario generations are all neck and neck. The last three are a way behind.
Looking at the generations around Pele and immediately after Pele there seems to be slightly better way to arrange the generations that makes sense to me. First I think the best Pele generation is the one with the older Players and Altafini. More depth is picked up overall that way picking up Manga, Amarildo, and Mengalvio as well. So Pele/Altafini from 1937 to 1944. Then the Zico/Rivellino splits two ways. Both Generations will still have the Zico/Falcao core from 1950-1953 as the players who should have peaked around 1978. The first generation would be the generation peaking around 1974 the Tostao/Rivellino generation from 1946-1953. Then the Zico/Socrates generation from 1950-1957 that would peak around the 1982 WC. Tostao/Rivellino 1946 to 1953 Finishers Eduardo Gonçalves de Andrade (Tostao) Dario José dos Santos (Dadá Maravilha) Sérgio Bernardino (Serginho Chulapa) Gilberto Alves Vanderlei Eustáquio de Oliveira (Palhinha) Chance Creators Arthur Antunes Coimbra (Zico) Roberto Rivellino Dirceu José Guimarães (Dirceu) Dirceu Lopes Paulo Cesar Lima (Caju) Jonas Eduardo Américo (Edu) João Leiva Campos Filho (Leivinha) Paulo Isidoro de Jesus (Paulo Isidoro) Valdomiro Vaz Franco (Valdomiro) Jair Gonçalves Prates Controllers Paulo Roberto Falcao Clodoaldo Tavares de Santana (Clodoaldo) Paulo César Carpegiani (Carpegiani) Francisco das Chagas Marinho (Marinho Chagas) Manoel Rezende de Mattos Cabral (Nelinho) João Batista da Silva (Batista) Defenders Luís Edmundo Pereira (Luis Pereira) Marco Antônio Feliciano José Maria Rodrigues Alves (Ze Maria) José Rodrigues Neto (Turibio) Humberto Monteiro Joel Camargo Mário Peres Ulibarri (Marinho Peres) Goalkeepers Émerson Leão Waldir Peres de Arruda (Waldir Peres) Zico/Socrates 1950-1957 Finishers Carlos Roberto de Oliveira (Roberto Dinamite) José Reinaldo de Lima (Reinaldo) Sérgio Bernardino (Serginho Chulapa) Gilberto Alves Chance Creators Arthur Antunes Coimbra (Zico) Sócrates Brasileiro Sampaio de Souza Vieira de Oliveira (Socrates) Dirceu José Guimarães (Dirceu) Éder Aleixo de Assis (Eder) Paulo Isidoro de Jesus (Paulo Isidoro) João Soares Almeida Filho (Joãozinho) Jair Gonçalves Prates Controllers Paulo Roberto Falcao Antônio Carlos Cerezo ( Toninho Cerezo) Leovegildo Lins da Gama Júnior (Junior) Francisco das Chagas Marinho (Marinho Chagas) Manoel Rezende de Mattos Cabral (Nelinho) João Batista da Silva (Batista) Zenon de Souza Farias (Zenon) Adílio de Oliveira Gonçalves (Adílio) José Sérgio Presti (Zé Sérgio) Mário Sérgio Pontes de Paiva (Mário Sérgio) Jorge Luís Andrade da Silva (Andrade) Defenders Edino Nazareth Filho (Edinho) Marco Antônio Feliciano Wladimir Rodrigues dos Santos (Wladimir) José Oscar Bernardi (Oscar) Celso Dias dos Santos (Celso) Goalkeepers Waldir Peres de Arruda (Waldir Peres) João Leite da Silva Neto (João Leite)
On to Italy. The first major group of footballers is comprised of a few generations of inter-war players who had strong performances for the national team winning two World Cups and two Central European Cups between 1927 and 1938. Because the birth dates of signature Italian players of the time stretch from 1900 to 1916 multiple "generations" were needed to capture them all. These generations have less depth than other generations because of my exclusion of Oriundo, South American players who were purchased near the peaks of their careers by Italian clubs and then given prominent places in the national team. In this era more than any other, Oriundo had vital parts of the Italian national team, most notably Miguel Andreolo, Enrique Guaita, Julio Libonatti, Luis Monti, and Raimundo Orsi. These generations are especially short of chance creators because not only did the national team employ many Oriundo at these positions, many club team did as well with players like Raimundo Orsi, Enrique Guaita, Renato Cesarini, Francisco Fedullo, Arturo Chini Ludueña, Attilio Demaría, Francisco Frione, Niginho, Filo, Nininho, Roberto Porta, Attila Sallustro, Raffaele Sansone, Alejandro Scopelli, and Pedro Sernagiotto all taking starting positions in creative,attacking positions for prominent club team. Combi/Ferrari generation is from 1900 to 1907. Finishers Angelo Schiavio Gino Rossetti Virgilio Levratto Mario Magnozzi Leopoldo Conti Chance Creators Giovanni Ferrari Controllers Luigi Bertolini Attilio Ferraris Antonio Janni Fulvio Bernardini Pietro Serantoni Alfredo Pitto Armando Castellazzi Defenders Virginio Rosetta Luigi Allemandi Umberto Caligaris Eraldo Monzeglio Felice Gasperi Goalkeepers Giampiero Combi Giovanni De Pra Mario Gianni This generation is very deep with players at controller, defender, and goalkeeper with lots of top talent as well. Players like Combi, Rosetta, Allemandi, Caligaris, Monzeglio, Bertolini, and Ferraris were all thought of as some of the best European players of their time at their positions. There is decent depth at finisher but a lack of star talent. Only one chance creator is present but he was great. The nest generations moves three years younger to capture Meazza but in turn losses some of the top talent at defender and goalkeeper the previous generation had. Allemandi/Meazza generation is from 1903 to 1910. Finishers Giuseppe Meazza Angelo Schiavio Gino Rossetti Virgilio Levratto Pietro Pastore Chance Creators Giovanni Ferrari Carlo Reguzzoni Controllers Luigi Bertolini Attilio Ferraris Antonio Janni Fulvio Bernardini Pietro Serantoni Mario Pizziolo Alfredo Pitto Armando Castellazzi Mario Montesanto Defenders Luigi Allemandi Eraldo Monzeglio Felice Gasperi Goalkeepers Aldo Olivieri Carlo Ceresoli I big step forward at finisher is taken by adding the best Italian player of the time. More depth is added to the creator and controller roles as well but major top end talent is lost at defender and goalkeeper. The final generation of this group moves even younger to combine with Meazza the other top Italian attacking talents of the time and acquires a mostly new group of controllers and defenders. Meazza/Piola generation is from 1909 to 1916 Finishers Giuseppe Meazza Silvio Piola Guglielmo Gabetto Aldo Boffi Felice Borel Pietro Ferraris Chance Creators Gino Colaussi Amedeo Biavati Controllers Ugo Locatelli Mario Perazzolo Mario Pizziolo Mario Montesanto Defenders Pietro Rava Alfredo Foni Goalkeepers Aldo Olivieri Carlo Ceresoli The finishers position takes a huge step forward and is one of the strongest finisher groups of Italians ever with two all time great players and excellent depth. The chance creator position losses Ferrari but gains Colaussi, a relatively even trade. The depth at controller and defender is not present as it was in the earlier generations but the top talent is present in Locatelli, Rava, and Foni.
There is a relatively large time gap to the next major generation of players in my view with Italy having a down period after WWII (major set back with the air crash killing the majority of the national team) until the arrival of the great teams of the 60s the won four European Cups, a European Championship, and made a World Cup final. Facchetti/Rivera generation is from 1939 to 1946 Finishers Luigi Riva Roberto Boninsegna Pierino Prati Sergio Gori Chance Creators Gianni Rivera Sandro Mazzola Mario Corso Gigi Meroni Angelo Domenghini Controllers Romeo Benetti Giacomo Bulgarelli Giancarlo De Sisti Giuseppe Furino Giovanni Trapattoni Giorgio Ferrini Gianfranco Bedin Fabio Capello Mario Bertini Antonio Juliano Giovanni Lodetti Defenders Giacinto Facchetti Tarcisio Burgnich Sandro Salvadore Giuseppe Wilson Roberto Rosato Pierluigi Cera Goalkeeper Dino Zoff Enrico Albertosi Luciano Castellini This generation is in clear contention for the best Italian generation even in my opinion. They have possibly the greatest Italian striker ever backed up by another excellent finisher. Two of the greatest number 10s Italy ever produced plus some very talented wingers at chance creator. An extremely deep group of defensive midfielders at controller. The group of defenders is somewhat lacking compared to younger generations but it still contains two all time great players. The goalkeeper group is also fantastic. The next generation is also in contention for the best Italian generation ever in my opinion and is centered around the players who performed excellently at the 1978 and 1982 World Cups, winning the later. It can be organized in two ways around the core of player born between 1953 and 1956 (Scirea, Gentile, Antognoni, Tardelli, Conte, and Rossi). The first generation moves back to 1949 to acquire more players associated with 1978 (Causio, Bettega) while the second moves to 1960 for younger players who were emerging in the 80s (Cabrini, Baresi, Zenga). The Bettega/Scirea generation is from 1949 to 1956 Finishers Paolo Rossi Roberto Bettega Alessandro Altobelli Paolo Pulici Roberto Pruzzo Francesco Graziani Giordano Bruno Chance Creators Giancarlo Antognoni Bruno Conti Franco Causio Evaristo Beccalossi Controllers Marco Tardelli Agostino Di Bartolomei Salvatore Bagni Gabriele Oriali Renato Zaccarelli Giampiero Marini Defenders Gaetano Scirea Cladio Gentile Antonello Cuccureddu Mauro Bellugi Luciano Spinosi Aldo Maldera Goalkeeper Ivano Bordon Franco Tancredi This may be the greatest group of Italian finishers ever depending on whether or not you prefer top end talent (1909-1916) or total depth of strong players (1949-1956). The chance creators are a very strong group by Italian standards and the controllers are solid led by Italy's best Tardelli. The defender group is solid but not great compared to other Italian generation, similar 1939 to 1946 with only a couple of top players. The goalkeeper group is weak. Overall this groups abundance of attacking players was reflected in the team attractive and attacking approach at WC 78. Tweaking the generation to younger players changes the overall strengths and weaknesses of the generation. The Scirea/Baresi generation is from 1953 to 1960 Finishers Paolo Rossi Alessandro Altobelli Roberto Pruzzo Giordano Bruno Aldo Serena Chance Creators Giancarlo Antognoni Bruno Conti Evaristo Beccalossi Controllers Marco Tardelli Agostino Di Bartolomei Salvatore Bagni Giuseppe Dossena Carlo Ancelotti Antonio di Gennaro Defenders Franco Baresi Gaetano Scirea Antonio Cabrini Cladio Gentile Pietro Vierchowod Fulvio Collovati Mauro Tassotti Roberto Tricella Aldo Maldera Goalkeeper Walter Zenga Stefano Tacconi Giovanni Galli Franco Tancredi The finishers or still solid but not nearly as good as the previous group, losing Bettega, Pulici, and Graziani. The chance creators are unchanged except by the important loss of Causio and the controllers are tottaly unchanged. There are major additions to the defenders making this possibly the best generation of Italian defenders ever with Baresi, Cabrini, Vierchowod, Collovatti, and Tassotti adding to Scirea and Gentile. There is also a major upgrade at goalkeeper with an all time great in Zenga and additional depth. This generations strength also reflects the teams approach at WC 82 as oppose to 78, with a more pragmatic style centered around a great defense.
indeed he has a strange way of reasoning if a sudden aprt of the world was colonized by say france then peopel bornt there are french.. i mean we dutch owned surniname for a logn logn time it bcame independent in 1975 to me all those born before 1975 are dutch and thsoe born after 1975 like fore xampel seedorf where brought up in holland have a dutch pasport so are dutch people its as simple as that..
Argentina in the 30s (Orsi, Monti, Stabile), 40s (Moreno, Pedernera, Lostau), 50s (DiStefano, Sivori, Maschio), and 70s, which had this kind of depth: Goalkeepers: Fillol, Gatti, Lavolpe, D'Alessandro, Pumpido Fullbacks: Wolff, Olguin, Tarantini Centerbacks: Passarella, Galvan, Trossero, Mouzo Centermids: Gallego, Ardiles, Lopes, Villa, Marangoni Playmakers: Bochini, Alonso, Valencia, Brindisi Wingers: Bertoni, Houseman, Ortiz Forwards: Kempes, Babington, Scotta Strikers: Bianchi, Luque, Valdano
All of the players I mentioned were of age to play at WC78, aside Gatti, the oldest were Luque and Galvan at 29 and the youngest Pumpido and Valdano at 21.
The next Italian generation Stretches from Baresi and Zenga in 1960s to capture younger players most importantly Baggio. The Baresi/Baggio generation is from 1960 to 1967 Finishers Gianluca Vialli Salvatore Schillaci Aldo Serena Chance Creators Roberto Baggio Gianfranco Zola Roberto Donadoni Giuseppe Giannini Roberto Mancini Angelo Di Livio Daniele Massaro Controllers Fernando de Napoli Nicola Berti Alberigo Evani Defenders Franco Baresi Giuseppe Bergomi Ciro Ferrara Riccardo Ferri Alessandro Costacurta Lorenzo Minotti Mauro Tassotti Luigi De Agostini Roberto Cravero Amedeo Carboni Giovanni Francini Luigi Apolloni Goalkeepers Walter Zenga Gianluca Pagliuca Sebastiano Rossi Luca Marchegiani This generation has one strong player at both finisher and controller but is thin at both positions overall. In contrast it is very deep with top quality and total talent at chance creator and defender. It is also excellent at goalkeeper. Although the defender position is slightly behind the 1953-1960 generations defender group in top talent, it has more depth and may rival it for the overall best generation of Italian defenders. The next generation is constructed around Baggio and Maldini (Baresi and Maldini, although teammates for a number of years, were born 9 year apart). There are two alternate ways to form a generation around Baggio and Maldini. Both inlove the core of players from 1964 to 1970. The first alternative includes 1963 (Donadoni and Bergomi) and the second includes 1971 (Albertini and Toldo) Baggio/Maldini A is from 1963 to 1970 (players unique to each version bolded) Finishers Gianluca Vialli Beppe Signori Enrico Chiesa Fabrizio Ravanelli Salvatore Schillaci Pierluigi Casiraghi Chance Creators Roberto Baggio Gianfranco Zola Roberto Donadoni Giuseppe Giannini Roberto Mancini Paolo Di Canio Gianluigi Lentini Angelo Di Livio Controllers Roberto Di Matteo Fernando de Napoli Antonio Conte Nicola Berti Alberigo Evani Defenders Paolo Maldini Giuseppe Bergomi Ciro Ferrara Riccardo Ferri Alessandro Costacurta Lorenzo Minotti Roberto Cravero Amedeo Carboni Moreno Torricelli Gianluca Pessotto Giovanni Francini Antonio Benarrivo Luigi Apolloni Goalkeepers Angelo Peruzzi Gianluca Pagliuca Sebastiano Rossi Luca Marchegiani Baggio/Maldini B is from 1964 to 1971 (players unique to each version bolded) Finishers Gianluca Vialli Beppe Signori Enrico Chiesa Fabrizio Ravanelli Salvatore Schillaci Pierluigi Casiraghi Chance Creators Roberto Baggio Gianfranco Zola Giuseppe Giannini Roberto Mancini Paolo Di Canio Gianluigi Lentini Angelo Di Livio Controllers Demetrio Albertini Roberto Di Matteo Luigi Di Biagio Dino Baggio Fernando de Napoli Antonio Conte Nicola Berti Defenders Paolo Maldini Ciro Ferrara Alessandro Costacurta Lorenzo Minotti Roberto Cravero Amedeo Carboni Moreno Torricelli Gianluca Pessotto Giuseppe Pancaro Antonio Benarrivo Luigi Apolloni Goalkeepers Angelo Peruzzi Gianluca Pagliuca Francesco Toldo Sebastiano Rossi Luca Marchegiani Both generations are deep at defender, finisher, and chance creator. The major exchange in quality between the two is A has a significantly better group of defenders (rivaling the previous Italian generations for the bets ever) and B has a significantly better controller group, an area where A was deficient. B's group of goalkeepers is one of the best ever with the addition of Toldo. The final generation of Italian players is the one based on the group that won the 2006 World Cup. The Nesta/Pirlo generation is from 1973 to 1979 Finishers Christian Vieri Filippo Inzaghi Luca Toni Vincenzo Montella Antonio Di Natale Marco Delvecchio Vincenzo Iaquinta Chance Creators Francesco Totti Alessandro Del Piero Stefano Fiore Controllers Andrea Pirlo Gennaro Gattuso Simone Perrotta Defenders Alessandro Nesta Fabio Cannavaro Gianluca Zambrotta Christian Panucci Marco Materazzi Francesco Coco Giuseppe Favalli Fabio Grosso Massimo Oddo Mark Iuliano Goalkeepers Gianluigi Buffon Christian Abbiati This is a solid generation with at least one top 5 player for Italy all time at each position. Finisher is deep, while chance creator and controller are not despite having some top players. Defender is very deep and goalkeepers has one all time great/
Position rankings Finisher 1) Meazza/Piola 2) Bettega/Scirea 3) Nesta/Pirlo 4) Facchetti/Rivera 5) Scirea/Baresi 6) Baggio/Maldini A/B 7) Ferrari/Meazza 8) Combi/Ferrari 9) Baresi/Baggio Chance Creator 1) Facchetti/Rivera 2) Baggio/Maldini A 3) Baresi/Baggio 4) Bettega/Scirea 5) Baggio/Maldini B 6) Nesta/Pirlo 7) Scirea/Baresi 8) Ferrari/Meazza 9) Meazza/Piola 10) Combi/Ferrari Controller 1) Facchetti/Rivera 2) Bettega/Scirea 3) Scirea/Baresi 4) Baggio/Maldini B 5) Ferrari/Meazza 6) Combi/Ferrari 7) Nesta/Pirlo 8) Meazza/Piola 9) Baggio/Maldini A 10) Baresi/Baggio Defender 1) Scirea/Baresi 2) Baresi/Baggio 3) Baggio/Maldini A 4) Baggio/Maldini B 5) Combi/Ferrari 6) Nesta/Pirlo 7) Facchetti/Rivera 8) Bettega/Scirea 9) Ferrari/Meazza 10) Meazza/Piola Goalkeeper 1) Baggio/Maldini B 2) Facchetti/Rivera 3) Baresi/Baggio 4) Baggio/Maldini A 5) Scirea/Baresi 6) Nesta/Pirlo 7) Combi/Ferrari 8) Ferrari/Meazza and Meazza/Piola 9) Bettega/Scirea Overall 1) Facchetti/Rivera 2) Baggio/Maldini A/B 3) Scirea/Baresi 4) Bettega/Scirea 5) Baresi/Baggio 6) Nesta/Pirlo 7) All Pre WWII relatively equal I think Facchetti/Rivera at number one makes sense. Although they did not win the WC as the Scirea and Nesta/Pirlo generations did they made the final and won a European Championship. Also the reason Facchetti/Rivera may have underachieved (if you can call it that) internationally is the failure of the coaching staff to integrate their two great attackers, Rivera and Mazzola, into one team, which has nothing to do with a lack of talent. This generation also won four European Cups with teams where many of most important players on the teams were Italians from this generation.