Hate to see the Rodgers discussion. Can't we chalk that up to just coincidence. Though you're right about Besler and Zusi. They honestly should have taken the cash and run. Gotta imagine Besler could have been making near a million in the PL.
He flopped big time for some reason after his first season in MLS and just kept sinking. Dude should have signed for Roma back in 08 when he had a chance.
What money was offered to them? Fulham was the club hardest after Besler. Did Zusi have any interest whatsoever? The market spoke. Wasn't anywhere near the demand BS thought there would be.
Came to MLS at 32 after washing out at West Ham (25 appearances, 2 goals). He then moved onto Celtic (0 in 7) and Shimizu S-Pulse (0 in 8). So, if you take the guy as his career ends, you're getting skewed numbers ... or you make it look like the J-League is better than MLS. Once again - comparing a player in his prime (Auxerre career is from 18-26 years of age) to his final run with NYRB at 32/33. Once again - comparing a player in his prime with his career well into his 30's. Of course, toward the end of his career, Dichio scored 9 goals in two seasons (63 appearances) with PNE in the Championship, then moving to MLS at 33 and then rediscovering his touch with 14 in 59 for Toronto. Comparative ratios are .14 for PNE and .24 for TFC ... so you made my point for me! Wow .. the guy's career really fell off at 36!!!! Who would have thunk????
Good work. But these tournaments are not head-to-head until the playoffs (and, yes, I am aware of the fact that Liga MX teams often send weakened squads to South America for the midweek matches), which is why I took the finalists since 2000. Of course, I didn't go into the semis or quarters and that may change the overall picture as well. If you have those, I'd welcome the info. Luke Rodgers is arguably the worst "legitimate" UK player to have graced the MLS stadiums (compared to guys like Andy Dorman, Adam Moffat, Luke McDonald, Dom Dwyer, who really didn't become pros in their native lands for various reasons) but there have been plenty of the Championship and League One types who have ... and they did well. As to guys like Troy Deeney and Jordan Rhodes, there have been £10+M offers for their services with obviously a corresponding wage hike. If they extended in the Championship, it means that their wages are on par with what they would have made in the EPL. Of course, £50K/w is over $4m/y and Rhodes, from the various boards, is on about $2.5m/y. Ya, so? Everyone has a story to tell. This isn't about Leicester. We know he went to Vejle after that - a side that was relegated from Denmark's top flight with him in the net. And I don't know why they were relegated either. I assume that's because they allowed a ton more goals than they scored. PS. And Anangono and Galvan flopped. So, OK, there are a couple of South Americans here.
wait wait wait...I thought we'd already established that age is irrelevant!! Now it's relevant? Huh, @sidefootsitter using inconsistent standards in an argument. Whoda thunkit! It's inconceivable!
Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Libertadores 1998 América 1 - 1 River Plate [8s] River Plate 1 - 0 América [8°s] - River Libertadores 2000 Boca Juniors 4 - 1 América [SF] América 3 - 1 Boca Juniors [SF] - Boca Libertadores 2001 River Plate 0 - 0 Cruz Azul [4°s] Cruz Azul 3 - 0 River Plate [4°s] - Cruz Azul Cruz Azul 2 - 0 Rosario Central [SF] Rosario Central 3 - 3 Cruz Azul [SF] - Cruz Azul Cruz Azul 0 - 1 Boca Juniors [F] Boca Juniors 0 - 1 Cruz Azul [F] (3 - 1 pen) - Boca Libertadores 2004 Santos Laguna 0 - 1 River Plate [8°s] River Plate 1 - 2 Santos Laguna [8°s] (5 - 3 pen) - River Libertadores 2005 Guadalajara 4 - 0 Boca Juniors [4°s] Boca Juniors 0 - 0 Guadalajara [4°s] - GDL Libertadores 2006 Guadalajara 0 - 0 Velez [4°s] Velez 1 - 2 Guadalajara [4°s] - GDL Libertadores 2008 Lanús 0 - 1 Atlas [8°s] Atlas 2 - 2 Lanús [8°s] - Atlas Boca Juniors 2 - 2 Atlas [4°s] Atlas 0 - 3 Boca Juniors [4°s] - Boca Libertadores 2010 Guadalajara 3 - 0 Velez [8°s] Velez 2 - 0 Guadalajra [8°s] - GDL San Luis 0 - 1 Estudiantes [8°s] Estudiantes 3 - 1 San Luis [8°s] - Estudiantes Libertadores 2014 Santos Laguna 1 – 2 Lanús [8°s] Lanús 2 – 0 Santos Laguna [8°s] - Lanus Mex - 6 Arg - 7 Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Libertadores 2000 Atlas 0 - 2 Palmeiras [4°s] Palmeiras 3 - 2 Atlas [4°s] - Palmeiras Libertadores 2002 São Caetano 2 - 0 América [SF] América 1 - 1 São Caetano [SF] - São Caetano Libertadores 2003 Cruz Azul 2 - 2 Santos [4°s] Santos 1 - 0 Cruz Azul [4°s] - Santos Libertadores 2004 São Caetano 2 - 1 América [8°s] América 1 - 1 São Caetano [8°s] - São Caetano Libertadores 2005 São Paulo 4 - 0 Tigres [4°s] Tigres 2 - 1 São Paulo [4°s] - São Paulo At. Paranaense 3 - 0 Guadalajara [SF] Guadalajara 2 - 2 At. Paranaense [SF] - At. Paranaense Libertadores 2006 Guadalajara 0 - 1 São Paulo [SF] São Paulo 3 - 0 Guadalajara [SF] - São Paulo Libertadores 2007 América 0 - 0 Santos [4°s] Santos 2 - 1 América [4°s] - Santos Libertadores 2008 América 2 - 4 Flamengo[8°s] Flamengo 0 - 3 América[8°s] - América América 2 - 0 Santos[4°s] Santos 1 - 0 América[4°s] - América Libertadores 2010 Guadalajara 1 - 2 Internacional [F] Internacional 3 - 2 Guadalajara [F] - Inter Libertadores 2011 Santos 1 - 0 América[8°s] América 0 - 0 Santos[8°s] - Santos Libertadores 2013 Tijuana 0 – 0 Palmeiras [8°s] Palmeiras 1 – 2 Tijuana [8°s] - Tijuana Tijuana 2 – 2 Atl. Mineiro [4°s] Atl. Mineiro 1 – 1 Tijuana [4°s] - Atl. Mineiro Mex - 3 Bra - 11 And as a bonus, Liga MX vs Conmebol in Libertadores (all matches): ________|___ PLD__|___ W___|___D____|___L ___ |___GF__|__ GA___|___GD
If we measure the J-League by the performance of its clubs in international competitions, it won't come out well. No AFC Champions League finalists since 2008, not even any quarterfinalists this year. And getting knocked out by Western Sydney Wanderers is a lot worse than losing to LigaMX. For as rich a country as they are, they really don't import much high-quality talent. They have only three unrestricted foreign player slots, and judging by some of the players who fill them (including Dejan Jakovic), they don't seem inclined to spend a lot of money on them. In the long run, spending on player development is a better investment than importing, but there isn't much evidence that Japan is there yet.
I thought this article would add some focus to the discussion here, as it is a good starting point: http://statsbomb.com/2014/10/goal-scoring-and-assist-distributions-across-leagues/ To summarize: - Assessing scoring/attacking contributions across leagues is difficult - Scoring totals and averages can be misleading - Look at the relative performance above/below the average league player to measure attacking output As for next steps to build on this analysis: - Weight the data on a per90 basis (I think a non-penalty goal per90 would be even better) - Assess relative performance among players who switched leagues. For example, Luis Suarez will be a good comparison. - Start to analyze performance across different tiers of leagues. My guess is that it'll be easy to measure movement among the Big 4, plus France / Holland / Portugal. Including MLS will be a challenge, due to the sample size. Ultimately, I think this article raises as many questions as it provides answers, but it is surfacing the right questions.
Hopefully the author follows through on his curiosity. Would draw further new readers from here, for sure.
“There’s nothing I can do about it,” Klinsmann said when asked if he was concerned about Dempsey and Bradley being able to maintain their levels playing in MLS. “I made it clear with Clint’s move back and (Bradley’s) move back that it’s going to be very difficult for them to keep that same level that they experienced at the places where they were. It’s just reality. It’s just being honest. “I want (Altidore) to get through the difficult time at Sunderland and maybe make a big step one day to a Champions League team in Europe because that’s where the top players in the world play,” Klinsmann added. “Now, making the step back, I totally get it. It’s a huge financial offer. It’s also connected to many other elements and this league is getting better and stronger every year in which we are all very proud about, and I want everyone to grow in this environment, but the reality also is that for both players, making that step means that you are not competitive environment that you were in before. “It’s not easy for Michael and it’s not going to be easy in the future.... I think he’s been faced with a very, very difficult year," Klinsmann said of Bradley. “Making that decision to go from Roma, a Champions League team, to Toronto, that now seems like they’re not even qualifying for the playoffs, it’s a huge disappointment. That comes along with that you adjust yourself to whatever environment you’re in. “He had to adjust to the environment he’s in with Toronto instead maybe an environment that plays Champions League football,” Klinsmann said. “He’s going through that experience now and still coming in. For the first time since the World Cup, he has to prove that he hasn’t lost a bit. Obviously, he'll keep working and pushing, but it’s down to him and his environment to see what he’s capable to play in.” http://www.sportingnews.com/soccer/...bradley-clint-dempsey-jozy-altidore-us-soccer Once highly-touted English midfielder Giles Barnes has opted to represent Jamaica, after reviving his career with MLS' Houston Dynamo.... After bursting onto the scene with Derby County as a 17-year-old, the attacking midfielder’s performances while helping lead the Championship side to promotion during the 2006-07 campaign were impressive enough to earn him the label of “the next Theo Walcott” and have a host of Premier League clubs chasing his signature. Tipped as a future England regular, a string of serious injuries however put paid to any of those aspirations, with Barnes limited to just 33 appearances with Derby over the next five seasons, before being controversially released in December 2009, an earlier loan spell at Fulham failing to prove the kick-start for his career. Following unspectacular stints at West Brom and Doncaster, respectively, Barnes found his wonderkid status noticeably tarnished and, without a club going into the summer of 2012, facing an uncertain future. That was until an opportunity to move to MLS with the Houston Dynamo presented itself, where, after a relatively slow start, Barnes’ fortunes have taken a noticeable upturn. Converted to a more forward role in the Dynamo attack, the 25-year-old was one of the breakout stars of the 2013 season, scoring nine goals in 32 games while banishing his past injury problems. Continuing 2014 from where he left off for the Texas-based club, it now appears that Barnes will get the chance to play international football after all.... http://hereisthecity.com/en-gb/2014/06/19/fs-ex-england-wonderkid-giles-barnes-opts-for-jamaica/
Barnes adds another layer of complexity to comparisons across leagues. Should we view his success in MLS as a consequence of playing in a weaker league, or as the fulfillment of the talent he was perceived to have had all along?
I see this as more an indication that fitting well with a club is as important as individual ability. He had a bad start in Houston as a midfielder, but formed a great partnership with Will Bruin when he moved to forward.
One extra layer of complexity for leagues outside the Big 4 is that many of them are selling leagues and the clubs competing in continental competitions have often lost the key players that got them into those competitions. My sense is that the J-League and K-League are heavily scouted by European clubs and sell top talent, while some of the leagues they compete against in Asia (China, Australia, and many of the West Asian leagues) are buying leagues that hold on to their top players. And unlike, say, the Netherlands, they also aren't dominated by a few clubs whose academies continually pump out top talent.
MLS is so hard to compare against. Probably has the widest talent span in the history of soccer. Players that are demonstrably mid-level EPL range (Keane, Defoe, Donovan, Henry, Bradley, Cahill, Jones, Dempsey and a few others) in the same league as players that are far, far away from that level. Things will actually get worse with the new TV money bringing in better foreign players while three planned expansion teams in the next team will stretch the quality American players even more thinly. I expect that the premium on quality American players will get higher and higher and we'll see less and less established YAs abroad.
Of course, it could be either/or (he played wing more with Derby and withdrawn striker later on, whereas he often plays upfront for Dynamo). Nonetheless, he scored 1 goals in 55 appearances in his last two years in England (with West Brom and Doncaster) and 20 goals in his last two MLS seasons (66 matches) with Dynamo.
How's that Costa Rican who played with the Crew player doing in Serie A? Curious to his thoughts on the vast improvements he's had to made and adjustments to the technical/physical differences in the leagues.
I think @LouisianaViking07/09 already googled it and was just backhandedly pointing out that he debuted superbly two days ago. Giancarlo immediately played a full 90 minutes and then scored the winning goal in stoppage time.
... a bit late with a response ... It's correct that Brøndby were in financial problems, but then came investors to the rescue and threw at least $30 million at the club.... so by the time Goodson was granted a free transfer by Brøndby, they had the money to pick up Dutch international Khalid Boulahrouz who became his replacement ... they also picked up Michael Almebäck from Club Brugge ... not to forget Thomas Kahlenberg and Ferhan Hasani from VfL Wolfsburg + Alexander Szymanowski from Spanish side Recreativo de Huelva in that transfer window, so they had plenty of money to sign fairly expensive players by the time they agreed to release Goodson, who had been a great disappointment ... Now they btw have even more money and have replaced Khalid Boulahrouz with Daniel Agger from Liverpool and have also picked up Swedish international Johan Elmander ... Jimmy Nielsen had trouble finding himself a Danish Superliga club when he returned to Denmark from Leicester, but he was picked up in the winter break by Vejle BK that were heading for promotion to the Superliga and became their team captain ... they did win promotion and when they suffered relegation the following season he stayed on and was doing well for them, but in the winter break it seemed clear that they were not likely to win promotion this time and not being able to find a Superliga club, he was on the brink of retirement and calling it quits when he suddenly got the offer from MLS ... this made him change his mind and to give his career one more try ... He played every single minute of every single match for Vejle in the Superliga and 1. Division, so he was not injured while playing for them. .
Well how much of a disappointment was Goodson? He came into the squad and quickly became a regular and was even captain. He did seem to lose form but played up until his departure. He was pretty much coming from Norway. What were they expecting from a 28 year old giant who had only played in MLS and 1 season in the top division of Norway?
The problem with Goodson was that Brøndby are a highly attacking minded team, so they do not defend low, but need their centre backs to be very good at passing the ball upfield and to be pretty fast, so they do not get punished when their opponents counter attack ... and Goodson too often got caught upfield, because he was not fast enough and not good enough at passing the ball ... he is a good header and there was nothing wrong with his fighting spirit and positioning at corner kicks, where he could easilly handle the duels ... so he would probably have been a very good Captain for a smaller team that is defending low, but a Danish club like that would probably not have been interested in paying his fairly high wages .... Btw... the new and very rich Brøndby chairman Jan Bech Andersen who personally managed to get Agger from Liverpool to Brøndby, is a close personal friend of John Terry and he is now trying to persuade Terry to chose Brøndby as his next club, when he is ready to leave Chelsea that is ... Terry told Danish TV2 that he find the offer interesting, but that it is a bit too soon for a move. .
Okay so why exactly did they pick up Goodson when I'm sure his pros and cons and limits as a player were known up until the time he made the transfer. I guess being a US international (on the squad for Brazil) was in his favor. That sounds so random though. Can't imagine Terry making such a move. He'd be taking a huge paycut.