The Best Box to Box midfielder?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by man_in_the_middle, Sep 11, 2014.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think what you say is true Puck, except for Keane's time at Forest where he'd probably be seen as the most offensive of the 3 (maybe right at the start of his Man Utd time too to an extent). Even though he didn't play alongside a more defensive partner at Forest (and most often in the end he was alongside a less combative one, Scot Gemmill even though Keane mainly played fairly at that stage and Clough mainly insisted on it - he and Ian Woan were once substituted for misbehaving although it was dissent IIRC). At that time Clough didn't play anything like an outright DM though, wheras arguably McGovern was a sort of anchor in the 'glory' years and him and Archie Gemmill together was pretty good defensively as well as with the ball, if not a partnership that scored many goals or was required to.

    Vieira and Petit was a 50/50 partnership maybe (but with differing styles) but certainly Gilberto sat back more than Vieira.

    I think Keane was a better player going forwards at Forest actually, and a big fee was paid by United, but ofc at United he really developed the aspects of controlling the game and decision making that comme referred to.

    Vieira was the most skilful in my view I will say, if not the best in every attacking aspect.
     
  2. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Until about 1996 he was the more attacking player of a midfield two. Firstly he was alongside Paul Ince and then Nicky Butt. At the time Scholes was still somewhere between a forward and midfielder.

    After that he became more defensive because Scholes wasn't defensive and so needed more protection.
     
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, agreed. Arguably one of two box to box players with similar roles with Ince I think but probably getting forwards more indeed. Bryan Robson still played a bit in Keane's time at Man Utd IIRC but didn't have the legs to get forwards like he used to (or like Keane could).
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Interestingly Ince scored more goals than Keane. Why was Ince sold by the way?
     
  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Hmm, I didn't remember who scored more (I'm going to say, without checking, both might have scored more at their previous club) and can't say I remember exactly why Ince was sold - Inter Milan's cash and/or disagreement with Ferguson (the latter could be completely wrong) I guess. Keane and Scholes did probably go on to be a more effective pairing I suppose, though champonships were still won before that stage.
     
  6. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    that's a good remark!

    Yes there are not much difference in talent from Keane to Vieira and Davids - each one had betetr streangths and weakness vs each other. Depend son tactics formation, each one can shine better than one to the other

    IN my opinion on watching them (number is just illustrative)

    ------------------ Attack -- Defense -- Control MF -- Versatility ----
    Keane ----------- 7.5 --------9 ------------8.5 ----------------7
    Davids -----------8 ----------8.5 ----------8.5 ---------------8
    Vieira------------ 8 ----------8.5 ----------9.0 --------------- 7.5
     
  7. J'can

    J'can Member+

    Jul 3, 2007
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    no way vieria more versatile or control a midfield better than Keane.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Depends on what you see as 'attack' but going by peak form/fame only I'd place Vieira on top. Defence is Keane with Davids slightly behind (occasionally he did play as the anchor) and Vieira a fair bit back. Control MF is either Keane or Davids (with his general control and/or passing). That would be my guess.

    Can't transparently remember though how Davids fared against Keane, although they weren't always direct competitors on the pitch. I prefer Keane anyway.
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I suppose each category (attack, defending, controlling midfield) has different aspects to it. I imagine James was thinking of Vieira's ball retention (and ball carrying) ability as a plus for controlling midfield, wheras Keane at Man Utd would have dictated play more which is another aspect of controlling midfield. Davids was a better high tempo dribbler, but Vieira able to glide past and manipulate his way past challenges better. Vieira was bigger (and stronger?) with longer legs to retrieve the ball but the other two were more tenacious and reactive while defending etc etc.
     
    JamesBH11 repped this.
  10. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    go ask PFA technical boards who selected Viera as better CM (than Keane) of decade 2000's

    Vieira won 5 PFA teams of teh year in last decade > Keane with 3
     
  11. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    rightly so ...
    Vieira could hold the ball, taking the ball go up go down ... more reliable
    Keane in other hand like Puck remarked : more like a pure defensive Midfielder in his best for ManU
     
  12. J'can

    J'can Member+

    Jul 3, 2007
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    see when you say something like that it makes me wonder your understanding of the game.
     
  13. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I know much more than you think and imagine ... tactics strategy ... on top of a simple players playing

    wonder what you want - and you should wonder why many many rated Keane lower?
    UNLESS ... you think only you know Keane but not all otehrs? LOL

    I rated them close equal ... and Vieira was more versatile to play more teams than Keane PERIOD
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord



    I'd doubt whether his distribution was (markedly) better as Keane and his general ball control of a higher level as Davids.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Oh, this was actually one I saw in full:
     
  16. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    It was because Ince was increasingly growing into a Big Time Charlie, the self-styled "Guv'nor", and with the emergence of Butt and Scholes Ferguson had more compliant and cheaper options. 1995 was a big period of turnover with Mark Hughes and Andrei Kanchelskis moving on as well.

    I'm not sure any of those players needed to be moved on but United won 6 titles in the next 8 years so difficult to argue that Fergie didn't get it right.
     
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, that rings a bell (when I said falling out with Ferguson I knew something was in mind).

    Kanchelskis had disagreements with Ferguson before leaving too I know. I think buying Poborsky, but then giving Beckham a place in the starting line-up instead more often that not was a result of that. Kanchelskis actually scored a lot of goals upon signing for Everton. Sharpe was gone before long, perhaps partly due to his 'bad influence' on Giggs?
     
  18. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003

    And also that they got £4.5m for him which in today's money would be roughly £30m I guess (adjusted for inflation). A pretty good sum for an injury-plagued winger who had some behavioural issues.
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'd forgotten how much he went for actually although I knew it was still a big signing for Everton. From memory, although he did do great at Everton when he first went there I'm thinking 93/94 and 94/95 were better at United than 95/96 (Beckham had started to get some game time as right winger and provided some good assists already that season IIRC).
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ince did fetch a big fee though too didn't he? More than they'd paid for Keane I would think.
     
  21. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Sorry I meant Sharp. Kanchelskis was £5m so would have been a bit more for the time, maybe more like £35m.

    Ince was £7.5m which was an enormous transfer, something around £50m I would say in today's money given the world record was still £13m for Lentini.
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Keane certainly scored more goals at Forest as in the first few seasons for United (and later seasons). Keane had two seasons with 8 goals and one with 6 goals in the league. Paul Ince not so much.

    When both played together:

    1993-94: Keane 37/5, Ince 39/8
    1994-95: Keane 25/2, Ince 36/5

    1995-96: Keane 29/6, Butt 32/2
    1996-97: Keane 21/2, Butt 26/5 (that was when Scholes played in midfield too I think)

    You can check it here:
    http://www.stretfordend.co.uk/seasons/season1997.html

    Keep in mind that the red number is the starts and black number the subs in.
     
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, shows that the Collymore transfer from Forest to Liverpool was really a big one too! Of course, applying normal inflation it doesn't seem that big but football inflation is surely much higher if we compare Lentini's fee (even though he was not the best player in the world) or Denilson's (ditto) to Gareth Bale's (he's not quite the best either).

    I think AC Milan paid less for George Weah than Liverpool did for Collymore. He was older though of course and the transfer was in the pipeline for a while I think. It was only a year before Shearer went for £15m though, but then a few years later Shevchenko was a more expensive AC Milan signing and then we know what the Figo and Zidane fees started in terms of the football inflation (quality wise those fees were understandable although age wise you'd have to say they were very costly - did Madrid overall get great value for Figo? - in the first year they did but after that?).
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, he scored some in cup games too for Forest. Frank Lampard changed things I suppose, but in those days Keane was a high scoring centre midfielder at Forest (Neil Webb had been even moreso a few years earlier and didn't take the penalties though...but still his tallies are not like Lampard's even for a short time). Hoddle had had one season where he scored a load, and Robson a few where he scored a good amount in earlier times but not like Platini in Serie A.
     
  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Oh, I should have mentioned Scholes scoring lots from midfield too ofc (on topic too).
     

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