Argentina vs Germany: Final Match Game Day Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'World Cup 2014 - Knockout Rounds' started by bungadiri, Jul 11, 2014.

  1. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    #1651 Brasitusa, Jul 25, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
    Whoa. Have I called you stupid? I don't recall doing that and it's not my style. I merely talked about a difference of interpretation regarding what I was saying. This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with your intellect: maybe I just didn't express myself clearly (I can be quite verbose).

    Again, you don't seem to be getting my point. *Average* team quality in that one edition of a tournament drops when more teams qualify for the finals. It doesn't mean, obviously that the quality of the higher placed teams drops. That remains unchanged. But admitting to the finals 8 more teams, supposedly teams that were not as high achievers as the top 16, making a total of 24, obviously drags down the average. The longer pathway that having a larger field implies, might (not necessarily, but it might) increase the difficulty for the one team that wins it all since there will be more exposure to injuries, bans, and intangibles, but the *average* team quality still drops, the more teams you put in the finals.

    I mean, forget the Euro a bit and think of the WC, currently with 32 teams. Wouldn't you agree that if we were to expand this to 64 teams, we'd get a bunch of mediocre teams there, dragging down the average quality? Still, it would make of it an even longer tournament, which would put more pressure on the depth necessary to win it all. But me, I'd hate the idea of 64 teams. I prefer the more selective 32 teams format, because some teams are already low quality (like Cameroon) and we don't need more of those.

    Now *I'm* getting confused at your last phrase so please clarify. "It doesn't make any sense that the harder to win competition is ranked lower than the tournament that is easier to win."

    What are you talking about? Are you suggesting that the Euro is harder to win than the World Cup? If that's what you are saying, I don't think anybody here would agree with this. Just think of it - the Euro has the European teams. The World Cup has *all of those* (considering the qualifying phases as well) PLUS all the others in all other five confederations, to a total of 208 teams. We've seen several examples of non-European teams giving a really hard time to European teams in the WC, not only making their advancement very difficult, but actually eliminating them in various cases. So, how come the tournament that actually gathers ALL nations might somehow be easier to win than one that only gathers a subset of those nations? Like I've been saying, the WC has more depth, longer pathway, more contestants, and tougher intangibles than the Euros, therefore it is harder to win. I think pretty much everybody here has agreed upon this, and I hope that I'm just misunderstanding you but you also think so.

    I hope you are just saying that I don't make sense when I say that the average quality of the Euro would drop with 24 teams even if winning it all became a bit harder. Yes, paradoxical as it might sound, I stand by it, because I'm using the word "average."

    You add just one more round and one more game to play, and it might get tougher. This is the argument of the NFL people who oppose our proposed expansion here: "one more game and some essential player might get hurt."

    So, yes, longer tournaments are tougher to win, by definition... but it doesn't mean the *average* quality goes up, the longer the tournament. Actually, more likely the average quality goes down, if the way you make it longer is by adding more teams (as long as you are doing it from the same larger set of regional teams - obviously in the World Cup when you add teams from other confederations that are actually title contenders or at least very tough competition, then the average quality might go up, to a certain degree depending on who you are adding). If that's what you don't agree with, then we'll just have to agree to disagree because I'm not about to change my mind about it, since I think it's a very logical and rational view. The only way the average quality wouldn't suffer in a longer tournament, would be if the tournament became longer by adding more games between the same teams (as in two games between the same two teams in aggregate format rather than just one game) but anytime you add more teams to your finals, you're bringing down the average.
     
  2. Dage

    Dage Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 4, 2008
    Berlin
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Am at work so answering very short. Ms last sentence was about the former and the future EC format obviously. The average quality of a tourney is uninteresting the total quality which means how hard it is to win is what's important.
     
  3. Hayaka

    Hayaka Member+

    Jun 21, 2009
    San Francisco North Bay, Bel Marin Keys
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    Can we quit lumping Uruguay in with Brazil and Argentina? By 2018, Uruguay will have made the quarter-finals or better only one time in roughly 50 years. That is really no different than Colombia, Peru or Paraguay. Or for that matter, Bulgaria, Denmark, Ireland, Poland, Romania, and Ukraine, not to mention Cameroon, Ghana and Senegal.

    When it comes to going deep into the World Cup on a consistent basis, CONMEBOL is essentially Argentina and Brazil, and have been for a long time. Uruguay's notable successes were part of a completely different era.
     
  4. guri

    guri Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    "A different era" = "an era when my team didnt win a damn thing, therefore we have to make it seem not important to make us feel better about ourselves"
     
    Pipiolo repped this.
  5. Hayaka

    Hayaka Member+

    Jun 21, 2009
    San Francisco North Bay, Bel Marin Keys
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    No, an era when only playing four matches could win you a World Cup, and so few countries even participated you could have groups with only two teams.

    That era.
     
  6. Tukafo

    Tukafo Member+

    Oct 12, 2013
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    No, a time before my grandfather was even born and that is completely immaterial to the discussion here which is about the current strength of the Euros.
     
    MatthausSammer repped this.
  7. Hayaka

    Hayaka Member+

    Jun 21, 2009
    San Francisco North Bay, Bel Marin Keys
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    The thread's title is Argentina vs Germany: Final Match Game Day Discussion Thread, so since about a week ago Tuesday, everything posted has been off-topic.

    Glad to see you agree that 1950 was a hell of a long time ago, BTW.
     
  8. Tukafo

    Tukafo Member+

    Oct 12, 2013
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Indeed it is a hell of long time ago which is why Uruguay's exploits in 1950 or 1930 are immaterial to the discussion about the quality of the European championships in 2016
     
  9. Hayaka

    Hayaka Member+

    Jun 21, 2009
    San Francisco North Bay, Bel Marin Keys
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    I suggest that if you want to limit the discussion to the topic you prefer, that you create your own thread and provide a link so people can go there. I did that earlier in the week on another WC thread when my topic strayed from the title of the thread.
     
  10. Tukafo

    Tukafo Member+

    Oct 12, 2013
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    No need, I'm part of a dozen people here who have been discussing the quality of the European champs here recently so whether this was off-topic or not it is what this thread has become by consensus. Now you would like to make it about Uruguay in 1950. I therefore suggest you take that elsewhere.

    Edit: sorry, mixed you up with guri
     
  11. Hayaka

    Hayaka Member+

    Jun 21, 2009
    San Francisco North Bay, Bel Marin Keys
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    Interesting. Is that in the Big Soccer bylaws somewhere that the topic of a thread can be altered by consensus? I think the rule is that you stay on topic to the thread title , which for this thread is the Argentina v. Germany World Cup Final Match.

    I don't care if you stay on-topic or not, but I'm not interested in following your dictates with respect to something that you're on shaky ground yourself.

    And in any case, I'm also not interested in "turning this into a Uruguay thread." Mine was a single comment in the context of a poster implying the Euros were deficient without the presence of SA, including Uruguay. I objected to the Uruguay inclusion, and then someone commented on my objection. I'm not sure if it would have gone any further than that if you hadn't decided to butt into it.
     
  12. Tukafo

    Tukafo Member+

    Oct 12, 2013
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Sorry again, I got things mixed up here
     
  13. Hayaka

    Hayaka Member+

    Jun 21, 2009
    San Francisco North Bay, Bel Marin Keys
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    No problem. Actually I mixed you up with guri as well, and then edited my post. :p
     
    Tukafo repped this.
  14. guri

    guri Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    #1664 guri, Jul 25, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
    Oooh... you guys are so sensitive... it appears that I hit a nerve ;)

    How about 1954? Did that one count?
     
  15. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Not to continue off-topic too much, but Uruguay is not just 1930 and 1950, they are much more than that, including semifinal appearances in WCs 54, 70 and 10, the latter only four years ago. And who knows if they would make the final had Suarez and Lugano been available. They should still be considered a major force, even more so when you look at the constant quality of players they produce (easily better over a span of time than any European nation other than the big five of Germany, Italy, Spain, France and Netherlands).
     
  16. Tukafo

    Tukafo Member+

    Oct 12, 2013
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Well, they all count of course in one way or another but I personally take no great enjoyment out of 1954. A different time with fewer nations that played competitive football and the game generally at a much slower pace and lower skill than today. So for me personally World Cups from that ancient era do not stand on the same level as World Cups of the last thirty years or so.
     
  17. ajcgn

    ajcgn New Member

    Jan 31, 2012
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Nothing is more prestigious than the Gold Cup, and 2000 was it's greatest year. ;)

    Anyway, living in Toronto with tens of thousands of immigrants from seemingly every football nation in the world, the Euro is very big here, not as big as the WC, but it still creates many traffic jams when fans spill out onto the streets after big games.

    2004 was very depressing for me personally, as evidenced below.

    image.jpg
     
  18. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

    Nov 30, 2004
    Westfalenstadion
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I actually love Copa America. It has some great football. I loved it was played every two years...
     
  19. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    About the "off-topic" discussion - I'm not a moderator here so I can't do anything about it, but I do own a website which is non-football related, and over there of course I have full administrative/supermoderator powers. When I see a thread that by consensus of its posters turns into a totally different topic, what I do is that I select all posts that discuss that new topic, and move them to a new thread with a header that reflects the new topic, and leave a redirection link. vBulletin does have the capability to do that.

    I actually asked several posts ago if a moderator here would be kind enough to do just that, but it hasn't happened. I think a message board exists for the sake of interesting discussions, and one shouldn't suppress an interesting one (many people here have mentioned that this Euro strength discussion is interesting) merely because it is "off-topic." It's easy to make of it a "on-topic" discussion by merely moving it to a new thread. Well, since no moderator did that, we continued the discussion over here.

    About Uruguay, yes, they won in 1930 and 1950, a long time ago, but lately they had some interesting teams - in 2010 they reached the semis, and this year they imploded due to their star player's cannibalistic appetites, but I still think they are a worthy program.
     
  20. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    No reason to move it. Sure it's off topic and has been for many pages but the discussion for the most part has been solid. In my experience moving some threads can kill it all together and since it is such a small group of people still contributing why not let it run its course.
     
    MatthausSammer repped this.
  21. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Sure, whatever you want. The one downside to leaving the discussion here, though, is that someone interested in reading/participating in a discussion about the Euro strength and expansion is not likely to click on a thread called "Argentina vs. Germany final match day" - Maybe a properly named thread would have attracted more people interested in this topic, especially if it had been done a while ago. Now, indeed, it looks like a moot point since most of what could be said about this topic has already been said.
     
  22. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    You are more than welcome to open a new thread in the appropriate forum. Of course it isn't necessarily a new topic so maybe you could just bump an existing thread and contribute to that.
     
  23. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nah
     
  24. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    :)
     
  25. d3rd3vil

    d3rd3vil Member

    Jan 3, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Dont cry for me Argentinaaaaaa....lalala! Always comes to mind when I read in this thread. Came to mind before the match as well though. Not because Argentina lost ^^.
     

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