Argentina vs Germany: Final Match Game Day Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'World Cup 2014 - Knockout Rounds' started by bungadiri, Jul 11, 2014.

  1. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Okay, how exactly is my calling someone else' argument ignorant by extension calling you ignorant? The other poster did defend himself, he responded and I in turn responded, no harm no foul. He clearly did not take that as an attack against him. I also got the "wreak" and "reek" thing, I addressed that when I awarded you some free bandwidth for winning the grammar division of the internet.

    You are upset that another moderator said something snippy to you in a rivalries thread so now you have a go at me? You have a nice life as well, I am blessed in that respect.
     
  2. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    #1527 Brasitusa, Jul 22, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
    Dear Benztown (a poster I very much like), please don't read me wrong. I didn't say the Euro is a minor tournament. Please if you see this word *minor* coming from a post of mine as related to the Euro, provide the quote. I never in any way implied it. I just said it is a *regional* tournament, which is an indisputable fact.

    Maybe you'd have a point in terms of arrogance or something if I then said that Copa América was a superior tournament or something. If you noticed, in my posts I said it is *also* a regional tournament.

    Now, we'd have to disagree on something: the Euro is not an achievement that comes very close to winning the World Cup. It just isn't. To say that the WC is just the Euro plus Brazil and Argentina is actually what can be seen as arrogant... this edition of the WC saw several teams do very well, that were not Europeans or Brazil/Argentina. Examples abound... Colombia, Chile, Costa Rica, Mexico, Ghana, Nigeria, Algeria, etc., etc. who scared the hell out of some of these traditional teams from Europe and South America.

    So, the difference in arrogance here is not favoring your side... what I said is that in spite of Brazil having had a stretch in which they won a World Cup (1994) then were the OT/Penalty series runners-up of a Copa América, then won the next two Copa Américas, then were the runner-ups of a World Cup, then won the next World Cup (the 1994-2002 stretch) nobody in Brazil ever paid any attention to those Copa América wins to boast about that team as the greatest of all time. That was a longer and more title-rich streak than Spain's.... but much the opposite, Brazilians are actually not very fond of that era, exactly (among other reasons, the boring style being a major one) because they see Copa América as a regional tournament, don't really place it into the equation, although in that stretch, winning 1994 and placing second in 1998 was better than Spain winning 2010... and getting eliminated from group stage in 2014.

    So, no, all that I'm saying is that we Brazilians don't put that much stock on regional tournaments, regardless of them being European or South American ones.

    If Europeans were to do the same and realize that the Euro is a *regional* tournament, then Spain's achievement gets cut to its actual size: a one-time World Cup winner.
     
  3. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    #1528 Brasitusa, Jul 22, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
    Sorry, I said I wouldn't address it any longer, but you are *so* wrong about this, that allow me to at least correct this part:

    You said: "I would agree that stating that two Euros and a WC isn't impressive is hilarious though I think it wreaks (sic) more of ignorance than jealously. Dear, *I* was the one saying that winning two Euros and a WC wasn't impressive (although it's not exactly how I meant it). The other poster responded to *my* post calling it hilarious and jealousy. So, at that point, you were calling *me* ignorant. Then you addressed what *he* said about Copa América and called *him* ignorant as well. You called us *both* ignorant. I reacted for my part, he reacted for his.

    Now, let's drop it, shall we?
     
  4. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Congratulations you made my response to him about you. You got the attention, now can we drop it?
     
  5. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    LOL. He said "this post" (that is, my post, the one he was quoting and referring to) is hilarious and reeks of jealousy."
    You said "I agree that it is hilarious but it wreaks (sic) of ignorance rather than jealously (sic)."
    So, come again, you weren't addressing my post? That's why I said "read the sequence."
    LOL. You're impressive...
    Yes, we can drop it... as long as you own what you said. If you want to be in denial, though, be my guest.
     
  6. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    Well, I think I gave a good argument why I disagree here.
    Maybe this is the problem though. Now, I really am somewhat ignorant about the Copa America, so you can blame it on that, but thinking about it, I can see why a Brazilian would see it that way.
    For a start, the CA takes place every two years, so there are twice as many chances to win, making it half as special. Then there is no qualification, everybody is taking part, which also takes away from the claim to fame. It's not special for Peru to play in the CA, but it is very special for Ireland to play in the EURO after a long and difficult qualification.
    Also, in past decades, there really are only two powers, Brazil and Argentina, making them always favorites to win which also takes away some of the gratification if they do. Someone from Uruguay or Colombia might feel differently, but for a Brazilian the CA would be more something they could lose rather than win.

    All of that is different in Europe. It takes place every 4 years, just like the World Cup, qualifying is/was almost as hard as it is for the World Cup and there are usually more than just two favorites and they also change more frequently. On top of that, you have to bring your A-game from day one as there are no easy group matches and you end up with a path to victory that is almost as big a mountain to climb as a World Cup.
     
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  7. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    He was right about your comment. The rest of the post addresses his opinion on the Copa America. Others have called you out on the audacious comment you made but nearly my entire focus was about his post. You are begging for attention and if being right means that much to you then go find the satisfaction in another thread.
     
  8. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Yeah, I know the rest of his post addresses his opinion on the Copa America, I said as much. Like I said, it's up to him to react to that part, and he did. I reacted to the INITIAL part (you divided your post to him in two parts) where *you* addressed the direct quote "Brasitusa said... etc... " THIS POST reeks... etc." So, of course, I reacted to the part that related to me. Why should I react to the part that related to him????

    You seriously think I'm fishing for attention? :ROFLMAO: Oh, dear, you're funny.

    Now, I tried to move on, but you won't stop... and then, *I'm* the one fishing for attention... :laugh:
     
  9. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Got it out of your system finally?
     
  10. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    #1535 Brasitusa, Jul 22, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
    You actually make some very good points. I hadn't thought of it this way. It is enlightening, what you said.
    Still, the Copa América isn't that easy, given the intense rivalries, dire playing conditions (sometimes high in altitude, sometimes in shoddy stadiums with intense pressure from the locals who are yards away and can very easily throw stuff and even threaten the physical integrity of players, sometimes the local police is to be feared rather than seen as protection, people surround the hotel where the opponents are hosted and sing and party and explode fireworks all night long so that players can't rest...). Winning the Copa América can be quite the achievement.
     
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  11. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Sorry but you didn't, the Euro is nowhere near the World Cup, not even close. There have been editions of the Copa America featuring the ten Conmebol sides plus Mexico and USA, pretty good density there but it can never be put close to the WC in achievement. Same with the Euro.
     
  12. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    You see, the difference between my posts on the issue and yours is that I first presented my claim and then supported it with arguments and examples.
    Your post on the other hand can be boiled down to "nuh-uh".

    I mean feel free to disagree with me, but don't think you can convince anyone with this kind of non-argument.

    It's a fact that at the very least Europeans, but probably a lot more, rate the EURO almost as highly as the World Cup. You can shake your head at it and believe that we're all idiots. I tried to explain why we're justified in our view and you have addressed none of it.
     
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  13. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

    Nov 30, 2004
    Westfalenstadion
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I concur with this post....
     
  14. RedFuryFan

    RedFuryFan Member

    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    Celta de Vigo
    Thank you for your reply, I'll look into those names when I get a day off. I watch all kinds of football, even U- south american tournaments. Those kids are dying to make a name for themselves, which usually produces really good football.
     
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  15. RedFuryFan

    RedFuryFan Member

    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    Celta de Vigo
    Prior to this world cup, most Brazilians excluded Germany from that elite hierarchy, they claimed Italy and Brazil sit at the top alone. Germany was critiqued for losing far too many finals, and Spain's accomplishment of defeating Germany in 2010 was belittled because they didn't have the world cups that Brazil and Italy have. Don't act like Brazilians always considered Germany to be in the same tier that they are in.
     
  16. Tukafo

    Tukafo Member+

    Oct 12, 2013
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Benztown didn't actually say at all what you accuse him of, he actually said the exact opposite. He said the WC USED to be a Euro plus Brazil and Argentina, but ISN'T anymore due to minnows improving and the Euro expanding.
    I remember the Euros had only eight teams in it until 1996 when it was changed. With only seven teams qualifying it was indeed sometimes much harder to qualify for it than for the World Cup. Heck, we had a reigning World Champion not qualifying for the Euro two years later (Italy).
    Now we'll have 24 in it. If you exclude the Uefa Mickey Mouse teams you only have around 35-40 teams that can just about kick a ball. More than half of them now qualify which makes it officially easier to qualify than not to qualify :)
     
  17. d3rd3vil

    d3rd3vil Member

    Jan 3, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The thing is you need good counterattacking teams to beat Spain. Holland did it almost perfectly and Italy was near success as well. Germany though usually cant play with a 3 men defense so it wont work properly. Could work though.
    And Chile or Brazil fought the spanish people down like dogshit. Fighting worked too. But not many teams can fight like that. So if Spain gets the right enemies they can easily reach the semi final or the final itself. In two years. But I have to cut off my dick if they win again.
     
  18. Dage

    Dage Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 4, 2008
    Berlin
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Just to add something: the overall quality of the EC does not decline in the future, it's the opposite. With the new format more or less all European powerhouses will participate whereas in the past at every tourney some of them failed to qualify. Also with a match more that has to be played the importance of the bench will rise immensely to cushion injuries, exhaution or card suspensions. Especially the last point will be the reason that no Denmark (great first team back then though) or Greece will win the EC in the future.

    So while there will be more minnows in the tourneys and therefor some "meaningless" or for neutrals uninteresting matches the overall quality of the EC will rise even more.
     
  19. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Are you talking to me? You've noticed that I said "you make some very good points" and "what you say is enlightening" and "I hadn't thought of it this way." I know you did, since you even repped my post, so why this outburst now?

    Anyway, I did say why I believe the World Cup is a bigger achievement (in two occasions; earlier when I talked about the players from other continents who play the WC but not the regional tournaments, and the non-European, non-Brazil/Argentina teams that do well in the WC and make it tough for the big dogs) so, don't say I haven't addressed any of it. The part I didn't address, obviously, is because I agree with you and you convinced me of it, as signaled by my praise for your point of view. And sincerely, maybe this is a narrow way to look at it, but when you think that Greece is able to win the Euro and then you look at how Greece usually does at the World Cup... tsk, tsk.

    Most likely this is an insurmountable cultural difference. South Americans have a huge dose of respect for the World Cup and consider it the Holy Grail with no other football tournament coming even close. Europeans seem to uphold their Euro a lot. We guys across the pond will have a hard time understanding why the hell Europeans feel this way... although you did advance the explanation and made it a bit more credible, with your well-reasoned arguments.
     
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  20. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Most Brazilians? Have you interviewed them all? No, Brazilians have always respected Germany. I don't know where you are getting your data from. Sure, we might talk trash about Germany's lost finals, just as much as we talk trash about Argentina not winning any title for the last 21 years, but even regarding the latter case and in spite of the rivalry, deep inside we know that Argentina has the pedigree, just like Germany also does.

    If you are into "most" try to look around the entire world and interview the older people who are able to take things in perspective with some degree of historical separation, not just paying attention to the latest fad, and try to realize what national team programs are considered to belong to the historical elite. I bet my life savings that you'll collect a response that will ONLY include Brazil, Germany, Italy, and Argentina. Period. Nobody who knows something about the history of the sport would include one-time winners Spain in this group. I mean, Spain was grossly irrelevant until 2010 and then crashed and burned in the subsequent edition. They'll have to do a lot more than that to enter this elite. Now, if you only do your research in Europe and you talk to younger people, maybe they'll be all impressed with the two Euros and will include Spain... we've been discussing in this thread how Europeans uphold their *regional* tournament the Euros more than other fans around the world uphold this notion... But go worldwide and you'll always find this short list of Brazil-Germany-Argentina-Italy, period.
     
  21. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    No, I quoted someone else, it was directed at him.
     
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  22. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    As for Brazil respecting Germany, I remember the draw for the World Cup. Giovanne Elber was with the Brazilian delegation and he's still very big in Germany and was interviewed by German TV afterwards and he said that the Brazilian officials weren't too happy with the draw because they'd meet Germany in the semi final and they wanted to avoid that, because that was the team they respected the most. They wanted that as the final.

    Now, it has to be said that at the time of the draw, Germany was probably more feared, but then came all the injuries and a couple of mediocre displays both by the NT as well as the German club sides and the expectations went down quite a bit by the time the tournament came around. Still, I don't think one can say that Brazil didn't respect Germany.
     
  23. LastBoyscout

    LastBoyscout Member+

    Mar 6, 2013
    In the last 24 years only Europeans and Brazil have won the World Cup. So I'm pretty sure the Euros are very near the World Cup in terms of quality required to win it. Sure, it will never be as prestigious as the World Cup. Winning it is till a huge achievement.

    I understand, that it is a regional thing so people living outside of that region will not see it the same way but for an European winning the EC is just a small step down from winning the WC.
     
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  24. raviept

    raviept Member

    Jun 11, 2010
    Braga
    Club:
    Sporting Braga
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    With 16 teams, the Euro is not much easier to win from the perspective of a single team. The qualifiers are equally difficult, whereas in the main tournament the only significant difference is that there is one more knock out round. The quality density is roughly the same. The only real difference is that to win the WC you have probably to beat one more top team. Then, there are other factors, such as climate and football style, since it's stranger for an European team to face opponents from outside Europe. In other words, the Euro is not as difficult as the WC, but winning it is a good measure of the true quality of a team.
     
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  25. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    The quality density was very close this time around I'd say, but historically, that's not the case. Which means that at a World Cup, you needed to have a rather unlucky draw in order to face one more top team on your way to the title. Those other factors outside of the games themselves, like climate, unfamiliar opponents, etc. are however part of the reason why the World Cup will always be the biggest prize. And of course the simple fact that the entire world is competing which gives it a global interest instead of a mere European one.

    Just look at the last couple of tournaments and the tasks the winners had to face:
    2012:
    Spain was in a group with Italy, Croatia and Ireland. That would be a group of death at any given World Cup, but for a EURO, it was business as usual.
    In the knock outs, they faced France, Portugal (in their prime) and Italy again. So again, three top teams by any stretch of the imagination.

    2008:
    Spain was in a group with Greece, Sweden and Russia. Granted, while Greece was the defending champion, they were a minnow in 2008, but Russia was in it's prime, demolishing a highly fancied Dutch team in the quarter finals.
    In the knock out rounds, Spain faced Italy, Russia again and Germany. Again, three top teams.

    2004:
    A lot of fun has been made of this tournament, but Greece legitimately had to beat quality opposition. They were in a group with the golden Portuguese generation, with an emerging Spain and a decent Russia.
    In the knock outs, they faced the defending champion France, the brilliant Czech team (which was alongside Holland and Portugal among the favorites to win it all) as well as the host Portugal in the final.

    2000:
    France was in a group with Denmark, Holland and the Czech republic. In the knock outs they faced Spain, Portugal and Italy. Again, all very good teams.


    Now lets look at the past World Cups:
    2010:
    Spain was in a group with Chile, Switzerland and Honduras. Not easy, but compared to the EUROs, nothing special either, particularly with Honduras playing the whipping boy (though spoiling the Swiss party).
    In the knock outs, they faced Portugal, Paraguay, Germany and Holland. Again, not an easy path, but on par with the EUROs, except of course that there was one more game and hence one more chance to mess up.

    2006:
    Italy was in a group with Ghana, the Czech Republic and the USA. Definitely a difficult group here.
    In the knock outs they faced Australia, Ukraine, Germany and France. Not the most difficult path I'd say as they only faced two top teams.

    2002:
    Brazil was in a group with Turkey, Costa Rica and China. Not a particularly scary setup, despite Turkey ending up with a great run thanks to a bit of luck.
    In the knock outs, they faced Belgium, England, Turkey and Germany. Again not the most difficult path imaginable. The only good opposition they faced was England and even that's debatable, though for some reason Germany also payed really well in the final after stumbling through the tournament.

    1998:
    France was in a group with Denmark, South Africa and Saudi Arabia...as easy a group as you can get.
    In the knock outs they faced Paraguay, Italy, Croatia and Brazil. Difficult, but again nothing special.

    So, to reiterate my point: The EUROs are almost as high a mountain to climb as the World Cup as can be seen by the examples given. It's not as prestigious around the world for obvious reasons, being local and all, and it doesn't have any of the added challenges of unfamiliar climate and opposing teams. And yet, for a team to win it, it takes a lot of class and it is a true testament to their quality, not far away form winning the World Cup.
     
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