Didn't know that Higuain could jump that high... From what I saw, Neuer was going for the ball in the manner that goal keepers go for balls - jumping with their hand up or extended. Had Neuer missed the ball, pure penalty. But to call a foul on Neuer in a situation like that suggests that a keeper can't use the tools he has been given. But, in a collision like that, there really needs to be a foul called. The reasoning I see is of protection of the players. Kind of a "Hey, you guys could really have been injured." Being that the keeper acted within his apparent boundaries but was in the box, the foul goes to Higuain.
Obviously, it's putting himself in a dangerous position by allowing Neuer the opportunity to knock him over. I agree on the no-call. Should have been a throw-in for Argentina. Both players are playing the ball (or attempting to) and nothing is reckless there. Not in the WC final.
Whatever possible path to the ball that Higuain was making, Neuer’s path gets him there first, i.e. because he was able to use his hands, Neuer reaches the ball at a point higher in the arc. In other words, Higuain never had a chance of playing the ball at the point where their path’s cross. Whether Higuain had any chance for the ball, or was actually trying to play the ball, the simple fact is that Neuer got there first and made a play on the ball. Any contact between the two players was more or less incidental. I’m not sure that you can call a foul on either player, but it certainly shouldn’t have been against Neuer. As brutal as the challenge looked on replay, Higuain could easily have anticipated the contact and chose his line so as to be in front of Neuer at the point of intersection, thus the it is more or less a 50-50 challenge. As regards the knee to the head, this also goes to whether or not Higuain had a realistic play on the ball, I can only add that if the Argentine keeper wasn’t penalized for going up with a straight leg out earlier in the match, you can hardly criticize Neuer for having his knee up in a much more natural jumping movement.
In playing keeper for 40+ years I have been in this type of play many many times. Never ever was I called for a foul. And never ever should the keeper be called for a play like this. When you jump high with your arms extended to punch a ball you are in a seriously vulnerable position. You leg raised giving you knee protection is the only way the keeper doesn't get killed. This probably should have been an Argentine throw but I have no problem with the call is was made. The keeper always gets protection here. The only way a call like this should ever go against a keeper is if he is clearly playing the attacker and not the ball. Not the case here.
Poor analogy, because in those cases, the attacker has possession of the ball (if you're talking about a dribbler) or is the between the ball and the defender (if he's receiving a pass.) Neither applies to this play.
I just can't wrap my mind around a fanbase that sees a play like this NOT get redcarded yet thinks of themselves as victims.
and I will use this as an example... http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/...f-the-ugliest-incidents-in-world-cup-history/
Away from a computer all day yesterday once the game started, but have skimmed the thread and--from memory (not having watched a replay, so if I miss something big, sorry)--here are my thoughts... First--and to a lesser extent, this applies to the whole tournament--refereeing a World Cup Final is an immense responsibility with the sort of pressure that none of us can even dream about. And before the retort comes, "yes, but these are the top referees in the world and they need to be ready for it," my response would be even the top referees in the world have no idea what it's like until they're out there. Players, as one of the announcers said yesterday, are known to puke in the dressing rooms before the match. A referee is one man, completely responsible for the production on the field, whose highest moment is the minute he gets the appointment. After that, things can only get worse. There are probably three other individuals in the world alive right now who truly know what it's like to step out into this match since it has been taken to that next level, where almost literally the entire world is watching and doing so with 14 cameras and HD TV and social media memes and blogs and referee message boards and every other sort of medium that is ready to criticize the slightest mistake. At the same time, you have pressure from FIFA to "produce an event." All of this is to say that stepping between the lines for this match is not comparable to doing your local DA game or even an MLS match. And I look at things through that lens when figuring out how I thought Rizzoli did. Second, the ARs were magnificent. I've said before that I've never been sold on Italian ARs. Collectively, I'm still not. But these guys nailed pretty much every call (two slight potential quibbles with AR1 below). They were very good and were a huge asset to Rizzoli in this game. Now, general observations on the match (unfortunately not in chronological order because my memory isn't that good): The first caution, given the standards of this tournament, was undeniably soft. Not only was the level of force in the foul low, but there were other German players around, so the tactical nature of it would have been dubious even outside this tournament. I was very surprised to see that card and wonder if you can chalk it up to nerves. I also wonder, conversely, if it helped set a general bar and remind players that there would be cautions in this match, before the first ugly tackle ever flew in. So either Rizzoli was a bit nervous, or he had a bit of a "crazy like a fox" thing going. The second caution is red in MLS, red in La Liga, probably red in EPL and a red more times than not in the UCL--perhaps dependent on the referee and maybe the stage of the tournament. But it was always going to be a yellow here. I think this is the classic example of how the WC Final needs to be refereed differently. We can sit here as armchair analysts and say that's red. We can say how we'd all give red in our games. But this is a once in a lifetime opportunity and whether you like it or not, FIFA almost certainly doesn't want red there. The player was a little over exuberant. Tackled high. Immediately knew what he had done and was apologetic (no, that's not usually an excuse, but here I believe it matters and you can tell it was genuine). He didn't do real damage. It wasn't an "oh my God, that's red!" tackle on first view (for me, it took a replay to say it was SFP). Anyway, I'm droning on. The offside decision where the German reached for the ball near the penalty spot, didn't touch it, and then the goalkeeper made a save. I think this, along with that offside late in the Brazil v Germany game, are the two calls I'm most intrigued about from an assistant referee standpoint relative to the newest offside interpretations. Imagine if that ball had gone in the net with no touch and the flag ruled the goal out? Wow. Initially, I thought the call was correct. Then I started thinking about it more. The player in an OSP is close enough to the ball, he makes an attempted play for the ball, but he's not within physical proximity of an opponent. So, he inherently cannot be "challenging" for the ball. And he did not obstruct the keeper's view. I think, technically, the flag was wrong. Not that anyone will remember this incident a year from now (or tomorrow), but it is probably one of the most interesting incidents from the game. The offside decision where Klose is flagged for interfering with the goalkeeper's vision. This one seems more justifiable. He had to duck out of the field of vision at the last moment, so offside seems the right call. Of course, the keeper saved it, so the counter-argument then might be he didn't actually interfere with his opponent. But, let's say the save wasn't made and the flag stayed down... then what? People would be saying the save wasn't made because of Klose's interference. Weird flag and a rare flag, but I think a good call. The incident with Kramer in the box that led to his head injury. I find this interesting only to the extent people are talking about the Neuer play so much. Kramer absolutely got his clock cleaned as the result ultimately showed. It was a shoulder square to the head. Technically speaking, how are you talking yourself out of at least a careless charge for that play? You don't. Practically, we talk about players "coming together" and freak incidents happening. No one truly wanted a penalty there (though, I'm sure Germany would have taken it). That's not a penalty the way the game is refereed. But if you're going to talk about Neuer committing a penalty, then so was this one. I can't fathom how people would argue for one and not the other. Which brings me to the Neuer incident. First, I'm not convinced he handled inside the area but I am convinced it's an impossible call to make if he did actually touch it outside the area, so no complaints here. Second, before I get into my explanation, my decision would be a throw-in. Higuain is looking at the ball, has every right to go for the ball, is prepared to play the ball, and then gets steamrolled by someone who is coming with more speed and force (and coming at the ball, rather than waiting for it to get in front of him/running onto the ball to meet it). There's no foul by Higuain here. But I can't justify a foul call on Neuer either. To start, this whole "knee as a weapon" thing is absolute absurdity, and I'm a referee who is known for not giving keepers a lot of leeway. Yes, when you bring your knee up to catch the ball near a player, you're (often) being a dick, as it is unnecessary. But someone please go outside, run 10-15 yards, and leap forward at an imaginary ball by jumping 3 feet in the air. Explain to me how it's possible to do that without one leg/knee leading forward. You're not jumping straight up in the air. Your legs don't stay straight. It doesn't happen. There was absolutely nothing malicious in what Neuer was doing. Now, just like the incident that hurt Kramer... could you technically say that Neuer carelessly charged Higuain? I suppose you could. But it doesn't get called that way. People want an entirely new interpretation on goalkeeper collisions to get unveiled in the WC Final and have it result in a penalty? The more there is focus on this incident, the more I think Rizzoli did a great job (all these quibbles aside). The only thing whacky about this is he had a foul coming out. I thought the cut that Schweinsteiger got when he was hit in the face on the header came from a pretty deliberate closed first. Felt that absolute needed a yellow and, again, in an MLS match or other domestic competition that's probably a red card. I'd be fine with a yellow on this match (though, I'd be more fine with a red because a fist like that is pretty deliberate), but the lack of any card was troubling. That's about it in my eyes. He managed the event, landed the plane, didn't unfairly decide the result and I think that even if he didn't get all CMIs right in LOTG theory (let's say there could have been two red cards), nothing he did could be viewed as a critical mistake. I think it was a well refereed Final, as World Cup Finals go. Oh, and not to beat the Neuer dead horse, but others likened it to Schumacher, which I think is preposterous. I immediately thought of the below play, but my memory was a bit faulty, because Barthez was jumping more straight up and Ronaldo was the one running with more pace in this incident. The result, by the way, was no call (though I could have been okay with a Ronaldo foul coming out):
Agree with pretty much everything you said there. I will say that the Kramer incident, the more I watch it, could be a red card. Rojo, I believe, left his shoulder in there and, practically, lined up Kramer. In real time it's an almost impossible call. It just looks and feels like a dirty play. It's way different from the Neur play as the only way Neur can get to that ball was by taking out Higuain. Rojo did not have to leave his shoulder in there. Again, it's just an unusual play that you almost never see so no fault on Rizzoli for not getting it. The Neur incident is not a penalty and not a foul and was never gonna be called, but from a philosophical standpoint I think maybe we need to reevaluate a play like this. It's just so out of control and dangerous. Maybe down the road we need to think that this should be a foul. It's really dangerous. My only real quibble with Rizzoli's performance is that there should have been a red card in that extra time. Aguero needed to be sent off there. It's a straight red, but that needed to be a yellow at least. If Aguero ended up scoring the winner or converting winning PK in the shoot out, there might have been some controversy. As I said earlier, I don't think there was gonna be a red card in this game unless it was so blatant. Even then, I still think a red would have not been given.
And taking a line toward the end line, not toward the opponent. Neuer is the one taking a line intersecting the opponent.
I'd like to reiterate that I'm a long-time former 'keeper, so from a player perspective, I'm all for protecting GKs. But to your points: 1) "From what I saw, Neuer was going for the ball in the manner that goal keepers go for balls" - This is largely irrelevant. Field players are typically going for balls in the manner that field players go for balls. When they do so carelessly, recklessly, or with excessive force, they've done so outside the bounds of the laws. ("But re-EFFFFF! He was going for the ba-AAAAAALLLLL!") 2) "Had Neuer missed the ball, pure penalty." - Again, largely--although not completely--irrelevant. If he misses the ball, definite penalty. But getting the ball doesn't even remotely absolve him of having committed a foul. 3) "But to call a foul on Neuer in a situation like that suggests that a keeper can't use the tools he has been given." - No it doesn't. It just means that he has to use those tools within the bounds for legal play set by the Laws of the Game. Again, field players are given the tool of being allowed to tackle with their feet. Doesn't mean they always do it legally.
As I stated earlier, the difference is using the knee for protection and creation of space vs. using the knee as a weapon, as it was here. (Although, you've got about seven years on me in the position, old man! )
You do have to jump with your knee out from a run, no doubt. When the result of that is the knee's collision with an opponent's face, then you have acted at least carelessly. (BTW, I missed the Kramer incident, as I was working and had to step away during that part of the game. Haven't watched the replay yet.)
Totally agree. Shumaker clearly was playing the attacker who had easily beaten him to the ball. RC in my book.
This is utter BS. I suppose you would not mind, then, if an attacking player, when going for the same head ball as a defender, pushed the defender away or hit him with a fist in order to defend himself against a head to head collision? FWIW, my daughter was a good keeper and I know exactly the self-protective maneuver you are talking about. I also know how it is to be used. In this case, the Neuer knee to head was an offensive, not defensive, maneuver. It was clearly, IMHO, excessive force as Higuain was in an inferior physical position and could not do damage to Neuer. In what world of soccer is a 203 lb, 6'4" keeper running full tilt legally allowed to strike any other player - standing upright, by the way - in the head with his knee? Or, perhaps I should reconsider my position given that Clint Dempsey was kicked in the face and no foul was called there, either.
This is a really good point. At the same time, though, the officiating has to be recognizable as consistent with other games and the same tournament. Otherwise the public will never know what to expect. I have always thought that this was a foul on Ronaldo. If he doesn't take such a wallop in that play, I still think it would have been. Insult to injury and all that...
Aguero already had a yellow and I was pretty surprised that this incident didn't at least warrant a second yellow. As already mentioned his closed fist looked like a very deliberate act.
never mind the public...I've been referee since 1984 and I've watched the WC since 1978, from one WC match this time 'round to the other...I had no idea what was yellow worthy and what was red. You just never really knew...
Tell you what. You go play keeper in a high level match. Hell do it in a scrimmage. Run full out and try and parry the ball with both arms extended and NOT have one knee up in the air. Let me know how that goes for you. Was the collision hard? Dang straight it was. Was there a foul? Not in my book. There is NOTHING in the LOTG that says that a collision has to be a foul on somebody. In this case both players were fairly trying hard for a 50-50 ball. Crap happens. That does not mean there is a foul.
Not to cause issue, but spin it around, Neuer took a direct line to the ball, towards the touch line. Higuain took an intersecting line. In reality they both took a direct line to get to the ball, these lines intersect. If you get to the intersection point at the same time you get a collision. the question is really was either reckless.
i have just seen a complet replay of the neuer scene... in 7 different views Higuain has seen Neuer long (2sec) before the Crash and he knows that he will never get the ball in this contest. Higuain was not hit at the head first, he was hit at the shoulder and by neuers thight not by neuers knee, after the initial hit neuers knee hitted him. Neuer even change the angel of his knee in the last moment, so that higuain was not hitted by his knee first. if this would be a penalty, then in the future every forward will run in the position to get hit by the keeper... Klose could have done that in the first half for example.
The fact that Neuer is spinning around his own axis after the collision means Higuain ran with his shoulder into Neuer's thigh, the impact on Higuain's jaw came after Neuer is already rotating away. Whether that's enough for a RC, I don't know. If Neuer had run into him, Higuain's trajectory would have changed more towards the side line.