Match #49 - BRA : CHI - WEBB (ENG)

Discussion in 'World Cup 2014: Refereeing' started by Alberto, Jun 27, 2014.

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  1. MrRC

    MrRC Member

    Jun 17, 2009
    Had the same thoughts. I went frame by frame on the DVR and it most definitely is handled with his bicep. Also very clear that AR1 did not call an infraction. This was Webb all on his own. Still don't know how he saw it from where he was.
     
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  2. MrRC

    MrRC Member

    Jun 17, 2009
    Nope, used the DVR to go frame by frame and the ball misses the upward arms of the Chilean defender and strikes him on the back of the head before narrowly missing the goal for a corner kick.
     
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  3. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #128 Alberto, Jun 28, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
    Purposely done try and draw a card and provide an opportunity for obvious gamesmanship from Scolari.
     
  4. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Going frame by frame.....and they got both right. Amazing.
     
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  5. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, no question that was an own goal.
     
  6. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I hate Scolari. I have no respect for him. He constantly engages in gamesmanship and even punched an opposing player while coaching Portugal. It amazes me too how someone who acts in such an unprofessional manner isn't dismissed from the technical area more often.
     
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  7. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Here's what I think. The only reason we know Scolari is a raging bull is because the cameras are trained on him. I'm sure it is water off a duck's back with this referee crew. Probably not even noticed. No big deal.
     
  8. footyref1

    footyref1 Member

    Nov 2, 2010
    South Carolina
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would like to believe that (that we notice because the cameras are trained on him) but I can see the grass dying beneath his feet at the edge of technical area. He is constantly standing there and you can see him in every shot for camera #1, the main camera for the game.

    Not only this but I hate his outfits. Polo, untucked, and track pants. At least the Chile manager tucks his shirt in.
     
  9. nonya

    nonya Member

    Mar 2, 2006
    If Howard made that call from 30 yards away, across the field, while trying to look through 4 people with a bad side angle, then he should be the next King. No way he calls that. AR 1 definitely calls that, and most likely tells Howard to book him as well.
     
  10. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    I'd like to see what AR1 did after the ball went in. Did he run up the touchline? Did he stand at attention and talk on the mic?
     
  11. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's a good point. It looked comical to see Scolari within three yards of Webb flailing his arms screaming and pointing to him. Yet it was as if Scolari was behind a one way and sound proof mirror. Webb never acknowledged his existence. Here's hoping Scolari lost his voice.
     
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  12. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #137 Alberto, Jun 29, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
    That was a great performance by Webb. Great foul recognition. Great game critical decisions like Hulk's hand ball. Make no mistake, that was a difficult match, yet Webb handled it beautifully.
     
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  13. MrRC

    MrRC Member

    Jun 17, 2009
    It is possible that the AR communicated his suspicion of handling to Webb via the headset, while continuing to officiate the rest of the play. However, the AR1 certainly didn't "definitely call that" and tell Howard to caution Hulk. How do we know? Because if it were a definite call from the AR, then he would have stopped and raised his flag instead of continuing to run with Hulk and keeping his flag down. If an AR is 100% on something, he signals it.
    On the replay from the CR's corner, the AR is visible in the background. As I wrote above, he runs with Hulk and his flag remains down as the goal is scored. He then moves up the field as the goal celebration starts. I see the AR indicating a good goal. My conclusion is that Webb made this call by himself from an impossible position/angle. Turns out to be a GREAT decision, but I don't have a clue how he made it.
    Couldn't have just been a guess from a partial look. Too big of a moment to guess having not had a good look. Did the 4th official on the headset give him the info? Due to Hulk's body position, he can't have a quality look either. ???
    If I got to ask Webb one question after the match, it would be to describe what if any communication the crew had on this play and how he arrived at the handling decision.
     
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  14. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    If the call was impossible to make like you said but was made anyway, I can't help but having the nagging sensation that Webb was predisposed to calling dubious plays against Brazil. After what happened in the Croatia game, I have the feeling that refs are always giving the benefit of the doubt to Brazil's opponent rather than to Brazil, to avoid the appearance of impropriety. This is not a conspiracy theory. I'm basing this on other controversial calls in the other games (how in hell a ref doesn't show a card to the Cameroon player who literally assaulted Neymar without the ball and off the four lines by violently shoving him into the journalists??? He didn't have the excuse of saying he didn't see the play or thought it was accidental - which it wasn't - given that he scolded the Cameroon player for half a minute) and on what *you* said, that is, that the call was impossible to make. So, he just assumed Hulk handed the ball, although according to you all, experts in refereeing, his angle and distance were impossible, and he didn't get signaled by his assistants? Oh wow!
     
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  15. Englishref

    Englishref Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    London, England
    I always believe the best way to deal with this is to ignore them. They want the attention and they want to know you're listening to them. Nothing winds them up more, and likely means they probably won't do it again, if you very publicly ignore their rant, as Webb did by standing a yard away and not even acknowledging him.
     
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  16. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Fernandinho committed six fouls before his substitution. Comfortably the most despite only playing 72 minutes.
     
  17. London_ref

    London_ref Member

    May 6, 2014
    London, England
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Howard Webb is probably the only referee selected who could have kept this potentially volatile South American derby under control. This game reminded me of the CL 1/4 2nd leg between Atlético Madrid and Barcelona where Webb was also the man in the middle. The fundamental requirements for both games, was that Webb kept the match under control, which to his credit, he did, in both occasions.

    Control, natural authority and confidence, with a good rapport with players, as we have come to expect from the Yorkshireman.
    Webb was not influenced by the partisan crowd, correctly rejecting two penalty appeals, and spotting Hulk's handball. He didn't take notice of the frequent protests from Brazilian players and staff (most notably Hulk and Scolari).

    As always, Webb was always close to the action, showcasing his excellent fitness and endurance. This is even more impressive considering this game went into extra-time.

    The only negative aspect to his performance was of course his inability to caution Fernandinho for PI.

    This was an exceptionally entertaining game of football, with Brazil, Chile and the refereeing team contributing to the spectacle.
     
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  18. uniqueconstraint

    Jul 17, 2009
    Indianapolis,Indiana - home of the Indy Eleven!
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Two things on this:

    1. Not to speak out of turn, but my point of view on thinking "Wow, how did he make that call?" is more admiration for Webb somehow having the ability to see it (it was possible) or for his team to quickly and subtly convey vital information that allowed him to process it and make the correct call effortlessly and confidently - it's a tribute to Webb and crew for nailing something most of us (certainly me) missed at game speed and pulling off something few of us could imagine/replicate - I'm not always a Webb fan but we watched greatness yesterday.

    2. Cards - all of us on this board have expressed a wide berth of emotions this WC and I think everyone of us has said at one point "how the %$^& is that not a card?" I've presumed by now there's been specific instruction from Busacca to lean toward "College showcase rules" and use talking and management as much as possible. This has met with varying degrees of application (and success) depending on the referee.

    I think those two items put together add up to what's going on rather than a concerted bias against Brazil - or any other team in the finals for that matter.

    I understand the conclusion based on some experiences, just trying to help color in the rest of the painting.
     
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  19. uniqueconstraint

    Jul 17, 2009
    Indianapolis,Indiana - home of the Indy Eleven!
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The image of this was priceless! I hope there's a still out there somewhere, gotta find it on the interweb... :)
     
  20. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Thanks, that's a very informative post. And yes, no doubt that Webb is a great ref. I wish he had worked in the opener; this would have spared Brazil the hatred of the entire world, and would have prevented any backlash that might actually hurt Brazil as the tournament continues.

    I do understand by now that disallowing Hulk's goal seems to have been the right decision - something that given my fan bias, I confess I had the hardest of times acknowledging, by telling myself that Hulk used the inner, chest part of his shoulder rather than his upper forearm. Anyway, whatever, my point is that it doesn't really matter (strangely enough, but don't read me wrong - I'm saying it doesn't matter *for the sake of this argument*) whether or not the decision was right. Assuming that it was the right decision (and when I tell my bias to shut up I guess I can see it), the point is, it was at the very least a doubtful, 50-50 call that was exceedingly difficult to make in real time, especially if it is true that like you guys said, the linesman did not signal the handball and ran to the center of the field indicating he thought it was a legit goal. So, barred some extraordinary clairvoyance from Mr. Webb, it seems a bit strange that he promptly disallowed the goal with no hesitation. I think this was a controversial call enough to warrant some pause and some consultation, and the angle and distance being so contrary to a good view, I really can't help but thinking that somewhere in the inner mind of Mr. Webb, some little subconscious voice was saying "when in doubt, find against the hosts; you don't want to be seen as part of a conspiracy to favor the hosts." But anyway, I can see that being Mr. Webb one of the best refs in the world, maybe he does have some uncanny power to get such a difficult call right.

    About the absence of a card to the Cameroon player, though, I can't agree. One thing is to have guidelines to talk players down and manage things rather than be showing cards at all times. Another thing is to be in such blatant violation of the rule book. There is no way on Earth that a player who gratuitously and violently assaults another one (who has his back to him, no less) outside of the field of play and without a ball being even remotely involved, does not get a straight red. That's what the rule calls for, and guidelines or not, failing to enforce the rule in a clear-cut situation like that one, is very hard to attribute to anything other than "if I send out the Cameroon player everybody will accuse me of having a bias for the hosts; I don't want to be another Nishimura and be singled out as the joke of the world."
     
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  21. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member+

    Oct 10, 2011
    Arkansas
    Webb is an excellent and supremely confident referee. Whether he made the call on his own or with some input from AR1, he trusted his judgement and likely decided that the best way to sell the call was to make it without hesitation or visible consultation with the AR. Even at this level (or maybe especially at this level), his display of confidence in the call helped limit the dissent.
     
  22. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    That's an interesting view. Thanks. I guess now I understand this moment of the match more clearly, thanks to this fabulous group of refereeing experts you guys have here. This refereeing thread is a great resource for us, amateurs.
     
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  23. uniqueconstraint

    Jul 17, 2009
    Indianapolis,Indiana - home of the Indy Eleven!
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Can't argue with the need for a card of some kind or color there - I guess my point was we've had a number of those in this tournament affecting multiple teams - yesterday's URU-COL game had a marvelous example of clear Delay of Restart/Unsporting Behavior with a little Violent Conduct thrown in.

    Not sure how the threshold for what constitutes a card got raised for this tournament but it has somehow.
     
  24. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Agreed
    However, FIFA.com still has Luiz listed as goal scorer.
     
  25. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member+

    Oct 10, 2011
    Arkansas
    Luiz and the Chilean defender both chipped in to bribe the appropriate FIFA official. ;)
     
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