Actually, the point was that the Railhawks are mid-table NASL team and a decent MLS team playing its top roster - sans Gonzo - should have destroyed them. Galz are, however, not just a mid-table MLS team, they're a team with one of the highest payrolls. The second point was not seeing Donovan in any highlights. Is this only a one-off game? Well, with the exception of the fact that Galaxy lost to Carolina three times straight, one could take it as such ... however, when you're arguing that it means nothing, you're also suggesting that Donovan's omission was sinful and disregard yesterday's performance. I merely opine that a poor performance vs. a mediocre NASL club sways the odds into the anti-Donovan/pro-Klinsmann side. Now, there's a nutcase here who argues some form of conspiracy against Taylor Twellman and Jason Kreis but, as nutty as that theory is, at least TT and Kreis were pretty dominant MLS scorers in their era. Had Donovan been as dominant in MLS as Chris Wondolowski, maybe the same argument could have been made. But going in half-assed in the Cup match does not a pro argument make. And here's more from Sunil - On the need to advance to justify Jurgen Klinsmann’s long-term contract through 2018: If we needed that, we would have made the contract conditional. http://www.mlssoccer.com/worldcup/2...i-jurgen-klinsmann-perceptions-concacaf-usmnt
Ahh, Mr Strawman again. I never said Bruce or Bradley were "anti-MLS" yet there you go putting it in quotes as if I did and framing an argument against it, as if it's counter to what I said. It's not. I said that they differed to the notion that players who had experience playing in Europe were better, despite the fact that players who played in MLS outperformed them when they were both in MLS, and that no US Coach has had full faith to stick with a mainly domestic player, with the lone exception of Donovan who more than proved the worth of it. Other MLS guys have been brought on here and there. However, if they didn't then go to Europe they were often replaced. Also it's very cute that you try to use the "caps" to goals thing for the US MNT. Not surprising from your typical MO that you have things completely out of context, so let's add that in. Goals/Game works real well with MLS stats because the players we're speaking about were both starters for their respective teams. However, it's completely misleading when you consider the players that I spoke about are guys that Bruce only gave "caps" as frequent last minute subs. When you make it goals per minute you get a whole different ballgame when you compare them at the US MNT level. Context is needed. You keep discussing players left behind by Bruce that were left behind by Sampson, players that were left behind in 2002 by Bruce for players left behind in 2006 by Bruce, and players that were left behind by Klinsmann as associated with Bradley. So let's add the context in here. Lassiter had 3 goals in like 5-7 appearances in WCQ for 98, and was dominant in MLS for successive seasons at the time. Sampson passed him up, and shouldn't have. Yes, Bruce tried to use him after the 98 disaster, but he didn't perform under Arena, albeit some of those games were as a flank, but he was rightly was left behind by Arena. Sampson erroneously went with an aged Wegerle over Lassiter. I'm not going to be able to find the minutes for Kreis as easily as other players, but his 14 matches across several years were mostly late substitution appearances, from my memory I believe he only got 2 starts, and scored a goal. Unfortunately for Kreis, his best year was in 1999 after the World Cup, so he wouldn't have gotten included then anyway, and he didn't sustain his success through to 2002 as well as other players had. I don't belive that Sampson gave him a significant chance to supplant either Wynalda, Wegerle, or McBride (all 3 who had played overseas) prior to WC 1998 based on his MLS performance. He was not a significant option for Arena in the 2002 cycle. Razov scored 6 goals in 25 appearances. I also wont be able to find the full minutes per appearance as easily with him, but I'm more than willing say his stats for goals per minute would look far better, especially given the fact that his first cap came in 1995 while he was still in college. Razov was passed over by Sampson for a chance to get on the 1998 squad. However, how he was passed up by Arena says enough. Razov scored 40 or so goals in 80 or so matches in MLS with Chicago Fire between 98 and 2000. He didn't get called in much from either Sampson or Arena. Suddenly he signs with Racing Ferrol in Spain, and Arena starts calling him in with regularity. He scored several goals in 2000 and 2001 during World Cup qualifying and the US Cup. But he returned to MLS in 2001 and suddenly then he stops getting called in, despite scoring about 35 goals in 70 matches. He scored a goal every other game in MLS, and was passed over for the 2002 World Cup team for McBride who had stayed in Europe, despite scoring only a goal every 3 games with Columbus in MLS and Joe-Max Moore who was over at Everton. Razov was penalyzed for coming home to MLS rather than staying with a low level club in Europe. Arena showed this same defference several times in his career, with Ralston getting cast aside for Eddie Lewis, Donovan being shafted in favor of Reyna, and McBride, Wolfe, Joe-Max chosen over Razov and Twellman. I do have the stats for goals per minute with Twellman and harped on them for many years on this site, for Arena ridiculously passing him over in the 2006 World Cup cycle, after he proved he wasn't a fad scorer but sustained top goalscoring prowess. In 2006 Taylor Twellmen played in 6 matches 5 as a starter, he played 370 minutes, and had 4 goals and 3 assists (1 goal per 92 minutes, 1 assist per 123 minutes). That brought his all time goals/caps to 5 goals in 19 appearances. Comparatively Josh Wolff played in 10 games 8 as a starter, he played 451 minutes failed to register a goal or an assist, and that brought his all-time goals/caps to 9 goals in 48 appearances. Brian McBride played in 5 games 5 as a starter and played 421 minutes and scored 1 goal (1 goal per 421 minutes) In 2005 Taylor Twellmen played in 5 games 3 as a starter and played 269 minutes with 1 goal. Comparatively Josh Wolff played in 10 games 7 as a starter and played 542 minutes scoring 1 goal (1 goal per 271 minutes). Brian McBride played in 7 games 6 as a starter and played 521 minutes scoring 3 goals 1 assist (1 goal per 176 minutes, 1 assist per 529 minutes) In 2004 Taylor Twellman played in 2 games 0 as a started and played in 29 minutes and got 1 assist (1 assist per 29 minutes). Comparatively Josh Wolff played in 8 games 6 as a starter, played 442 minutes scoring 1 goal and getting 2 assists (1 goal per 442 minutes, 1 assist per 221 minutes). McBride played in 11 games 9 as a starter playing 747 minutes scoring 3 goals. You also fail to mention how many legit goals that Twellman had that were incorrectly called back as offsides. It was at least 3, and there were 2 in one game in the build up to 2006. You could see he had the touch it was a matter of just letting him have the shot to do so. Twellman wasn't being outperformed, he was being outplayed just in terms of minutes. He was finding the back of the net and becoming more comfortable in doing so the more games he got played. He just wasn't given enough games. He lead MLS in scoring for 3-4 seasons before finally getting spotty call-ups from Bruce. He only broke into the line-up on a semi-regular basis in 2005-2006... as he did he began outperforming both McBride and Wolff. Twellman had the goal pouching and center forward behavior of McBride, but he also provided an added dimension in that he could create for other players around him, too. This would've made the US attack more potent. Instead, McBride remained the permanent fixture but failed to deliver. Bobby Convey started 2 games as a forward from midfield, and Josh Wolff was brought along to come off the bench, despite having 1 goal in 7 games in 2005 and no goals in 2006. There's no reason that Wolff should've been selected over Twellman based off of performance, it had to be other factors, such as Wolff having played in Europe at the time. McBride was showing signs that he didn't have it to produce anymore and should've started being subbed off for Twellman to give him a legitimate shot to show what he had (which was a knack for finding the back of the net). Further, you also didn't mention how most of those "caps" that Cunningham got were as a late sub on the flanks in midfield, and not as a striker... Bruce tried him out as a flank player in 2002. It wasn't the role that was best suited for Cunningham, and there were more talented flanks at the time. So he rightly wasn't called up for 2002. But, he then got left off the team for the most part. He saw 57 minutes of time in 2005 as a flank midfielder, after seeing none in 2004, and got none in 2006 (yes no caps in 2006, despite being the MLS leading scorer). Again 2009 Cunningham won a second golden boot in MLS, and was 2nd all-time in scoring in MLS behind Moreno, but Bradley largely ignored it. It wasn't until after the season in the fall that he got two caps against Denmark and Slovakia, totaling just 69 minutes in both games, and he still scored a goal. Then in 2010 he was given another 2 caps and just 68 minutes this time. So despite being the Golden boot winner in MLS in 2006 and 2009, and being the MLS all-time leading goalscorer in 2010, from 2005 to 2010 he saw a grand total of 6 caps, 2 starts, and a combined 194 minutes (an average of 1 appearance and 30 minutes per year), scoring 1 goal. Is that really being given a chance to prove yourself? Doesn't seem like it to me. Most of the decent US MNT strikers have averaged 1 goal per 3-5 games (20-35%) playing for the US. Cunningham was only given 2.1 games worth of minutes across 6 years leading up to 2010, but still had a goal. If he was given more time to settle in and be given the opportunity to score, he would've done so, the same way he did in Columbus, Toronto, and Dallas. Jozy Altidore, our first choice striker scored 6 goals in 17 matches and 1079 minutes in 2009 and 2 goals in 6 matches 2 goals in 750 minutes in 2010 (1 goal every 228 minutes). That he had a higher goal total only reflected more time on the field than Cunningham, not a more efficient use of that time on the field. Charlie Davies was the 2nd choice striker in 2009, up until his unfortunate accident he was a lock for the World Cup squad, but in 2009 he had 3 goals in 749 minutes, or just 1 goal per 248 minutes (still well below Cunningham's use of infrequent time). Robbie Findley had 10 games, 594 minutes in 2010, and failed to score, he was an awful choice to replace Davies, and pass up Cunningham. So if Altidore and Davies had less goals per minute for the US than Cunningham did in 2009 and 2010, why were they the first two options? Hull and Hammerby/Sochaux might have had just a tad to do with that... Cunningham wasn't just past over for European based players, there were the recycled Americans and a few new ones mixed in with Ching, Casey, Cooper, Findley, Buddle, etc. but of all of them only Cooper and Gomez had a better goals/min average than Cunningham. The fact that Altidore, Davies, and Gomez were our top 3 first choice forwards for Bradley, and they were the only 3 forwards that played outside of MLS is not lost on me, especially since the Coach was the father of the son he had move from MLS to Herenveen in Holland. Now, we have Donovan being left off by Klinsmann, despite Donovan winning 2 MLS Cups and scoring the crucial game winning goals, and being the leading scorer for the US MNT, but Klinsmann saying blatantly, that playing in "MLS hurt him, because people say he did good in MLS but what does that mean?" None of those players were given significant time as a key creative player who was given the role of scoring, rather than just feeding McBride. They weren'y given nearly close to the amount of time that the coaches gave to players they favored because they went abroad (Roy Wegerle, Joe-Max Moore, Brian McBride, Josh Wolff, Jozy Altidore, Charlie Davies, Hercules Gomez, etc.). Despite the fact that they weren't producing the US coaches kept calling them in. So yes, I still stand by my original statement, that no US Coach has given the true persistent top scorers in MLS (not the fly by night 1 good year type of players) a significant shot to show what they can do on the world stage.
Fat injured Maradona in 1990 (or doped up Maradona in 1994). I don't think the sabattical had anything to do with it. There was no issue with his fitness either. He came back and performed in 2013 and 2014. All of the training videos that I've seen show an extremely fit and well playing Donovan, and a group of players following him around and taking his leadership. There was absolutely no problem with Donovan. The problem was Klinsmann's ego to stick it to the media who thought Donovan was indispensable. He wanted to prove he could win without Donovan rather than putting the ego aside and incorporating Donovan into the squad and seeing how far we could go with him. I'm sure he was also still pissed at Donovan for not trying harder to make Klinsmann bringing him to Bayern become a justified move at Bayern. That move was one of the heavily criticized moves by the Bayern management when he was let go. There very well may be another personal issue that we are not aware of as well.
Do you not think that Landon Donovan could've added the ability to provide possession in midfield and distribute the ball around better than Bradley did in that Central Midfield role? How about EJ off the bench to replace Altidore? How about Joe Corona instead of Bedoja on the left flank in the Portugal game?
LMFAO!!! Way to overreact to an early round US Open Cup match... First off, your premise that it had anything to do with how he appeared to JK is completely flawed, seeing as the selection has already been made, and I don't think JK saw it or considered it at all. It also assumes that there was anything Donovan could do to get on the squad. Everyone knows since JK came on as coach he was determined to ostracize Donovan and try to replace him from the team. Donovan is our leading scorer over the past 2 years STILL with the 8 goals and 9 assists. Donovan's performance had nothing to do with it. I also find it funny that a) in your mind my whole argument links to harping on Donovan, when the Donovan thing is one of the least of my concerns about JK's coaching, and there are so many other people whose sole criticism revolves around Donovan, b) you think that the intensity that Donovan put into an early round US Open Cup match equates in any way to the level of performance he would've had at the World Cup, and c) that you think Donovan hasn't already done just as well if not better with previous World Cup squads, and was completely incapable of doing it again, despite almost always showing up in nearly every big stage match he's ever played.
The only thing I would respond to here is that LD has become the all-time leading scorer for the USMNT and MLS leading in both assists and goals, because he has had far more good games than bad. Landon has a reputation for being an inconsistent performer from game to game. I have really zero idea whether or not that is the case - I don't watch the Galaxy very much. Perhaps there is some data to back up that perception. I would suggest that the numbers suggest a consistency that might not be evident from game to game, but certainly over time. Does the performance mean "nothing"? Well, it's a data point and taken in the grand context of what LD has done in his career, in the last cycle and over the last year, I would give say that yes, it means almost nothing.
It's hard to argue with the results and I won't pretend to be a master soccer tactician, but I'll try to answer the question. In reality, you don't change much when you've got 4 points. That said, Ghana bombed down our flanks which was later said to be the US strategy (20/20 hindsight coaching?), and I'm sure that it was, to an extent, and as a result most people would agree that the US was extremely outplayed by Ghana. I would have brought Donovan in at least as an early 2nd half sub for two reasons. One, Donovan's presence on the wing would give the Ghanaian full back on that side (or more importantly their coach) a little pause when venturing forward. Two, if we were going to play the counter-attack, which we did, that plays right into Donovan's game. A couple of goals come to mind (Brazil '09, Algeria '10) - I know those are a long time ago, just examples. Perhaps, we're up 2-0 on Ghana, or they never equalize but of course that is impossible to say. Against Portugal, Donovan could have been used to put pressure on the back line which was very green. Why Klinsmann didn't try to exploit that more, I'm not sure. He could be brought on to spell Bradley who was GASSED. Maybe Donovan is smart enough to tell Yedlin not to cross the ball into the box? Where we're really going to miss him starts tomorrow, if only to have the fresh legs of someone who's been there before, and has the soccer IQ to make a difference. All in my opinion, of course. As we've seen, your milage may vary.
This whole tangent is ridiculous. Klinsman picked the best team. Whether or not Donovan could or could not help the team doesn't matter. They're are a bunch of players not on the team that could help the team. But you can only bring 20. Move on. And a coaches job is to get the best out of each player. That means treating them all different and in different ways. That's what a coach does. He held Donovan to a higher standard because he's the face of US Soccer. And he should have been. Move on. The team is playing great. Klinsman has them believing in themselves when no one else did and they have an excellent chance of moving on. Out of by far the toughest group in the WC. At this point I absolutely believe we can play with anyone left in the tournament.
You have some strong opinions and that is great - I don't disagree with everything that you say. I'm not sure why you would come into a thread that is titled as this one is, and tell people to move on from discussing it. By all means, take your own advice, however. Your first step in doing so would be to stop clicking on the 2-3 threads where some people have not moved on, and others are content to discuss it with them.
According to some posters Klinsmann knows zero about tactics so you don't need to be a master tactician to answer. Just so I am clear, v Ghana you would have subbed in LD early 2nd half for who? Portugal, you would have subbed in LD for Bradley late 2nd half?
Against either team, he could have started and the game plan might have changed. Against either team, he could have come on and been an effective sub. All things being equal, the simplest answer is on for Bedoya about 5 minutes earlier, and on for Bedoya again against Portugal. I don't think MB is as gassed if Donovan is on. Whatever I say here, changes the outcome of the game as is, so these suggestions are very easily torn down, I'm sure. Messing with the space-time continuum and all. Knowing what I know here, perhaps the only thing I change is bringing on Donovan instead of Gonzales to help kill the game immediately following the goal. I've never liked waiting for the sub until injury time - and this time it caused the ref to add a minute. He would start tomorrow.
Beckham was far more important to LA than people thought. Helped cover Brucie's ass tactically. They've crashed and burned without him. Brucie and Landon owe a fair amount to the guy.
Donovan played like he was scared in the Czech Rep match. McBride would win header after header, and Donovan was nowhere to be found for the second ball. When he had the ball, he couldn't get rid of it fast enough. It reminded me of his Leverkeusen CL match that got him rightly and heavily criticized.
Guy's , Let me remind most of you who keep bring it up ...........Donovan is not the same player from 02 and 06 or 10 .
I've brought this up before - there's a Russian PBP of the whole match on YouTube and, at one point, the announcer says with disgust, ~ "Jeez, you have to shoot this on goal, Mister Donovan". They did agree he had a good Italy match but vs. Ghana, another Russian announcer says, "It's pretty clear that some American leaders did not show up today" (I assume he meant Reyna, who was long out of the match by that point, and Donovan). I posted the links on some other thread within the last month or so. Indeed. Even with the top 4 payroll, they sit in 9th place in PPG and basically in mid-table overall and that's despite having Robbie Keane's seven goals.
Can't access if this is a USA N&A thread. It's a part of the pattern. When the WC camp was assembled, Donovan was sitting on zero goals despite often playing as a supporting striker or a central attacking mid. And so Klinsmann went with Wondolowski, whose 5 goals weren't exactly leading the charts either ... but, at least, basic math tells you that five is better than nothing.
You actually don't remember his Leverkusen match very well. Or at least the circumstances leading up to it.
Is he - more or less - the same player from '13? That guy led the team in scoring and dominated the GC like no other American ever has.
The trouble with that argument is that Donovan was played out of position that game. Reyna was suddenly inserted back into the team and playing as the central creative mid, which is where Donovan had been playing prior to that match. So if Donovan seemed confused about his role against the Czech Rep, there's a reason why. Once Reyna was taken out, Donovan started getting more into the game and had a few chances. Against Italy he was settled right back into that position and did an amazing job springing our counter and controlling possession our of the back in the 2nd half.
I watched the match and remember it perfectly. Did you watch the match or only read comments on this board?
You can refresh your memory - http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...lyse_bayer-leverkusen-9_fc-liverpool-512.html How many goals and assists vs. Panama and Costa Rica, top US opponents by the score?
It was not just that he had a horrible CL match with Leverkeusen, almost all players have horrible games occasionally. It was the way he folded, as if he did not want to be on the pitch. As a central midfielder, he did not show for the ball much and had very few touches. When he did get the ball, he was eager to get rid of it.