My eye test (looked like fat Donovan to me) his own statements that he couldn't go all out, the fact that he had struggled for Galaxy at the start of the season, and the fact that he was left off the roster. Have we ever confirmed who leaked the beep test btw? And if the results are reliable?
I find it quite literally unbelievable that LD got fat, given that since forever he has been described as a fitness freak. But, I can not by any means argue with your eye test. I concede that he looked fat to you. As for his fitness and what he said about it, this line of reasoning continues to puzzle me. Setting aside the fact that he never said he "couldn't go all out" but that he couldn't "train 12 straight days in a row and have 12 straight great days in a row," you are basing at least part of your opinion about the state of his fitness on Donovan's own words. He does not say that he is not in shape, he's just being a little bit more honest about his fitness for someone with the miles on his legs and age than just about every athlete ever. One of the things that I, personally admire about him, is his openness though it has sometimes been ill-advised. That said, given Donovan's history, I'd wager that Donovan minus a 1/2 step is still as fast as just about anyone on the team. The beep test results showed that. However, not long after being left off the team, he had some more words about his fitness: "Based on my performances leading up to camp, based on my preparation for the camp, based on my fitness, based on my workload, based on the way I trained and played in camp, I not only thought I was part of the 23, I thought I was in contention to start." Basically, for those arguing he was out of shape it goes like this: Donovan: I can't train 12 days in a row and have 12 good days Person: See, he just said he can't go all out. He's out of shape> Donovan: Based on my fitness, I should have made the team. Person: Ya, but, he started slow for the Galaxy. My question to you would be: Why do you give considerable weight to statements that Donovan made which support your opinion about his fitness, while basically ignoring the statements where he says that his fitness was one of the main reasons why he felt he should not have been left off the team? He did start slow for the Galaxy - saying that was due to fitness issue is a leap of logic I wouldn't necessarily agree with considering that the very next game he had 2 goals and an assist. As for being left off the team meaning that he was out of shape, what we know about what happened in camp as well as Donovan's words just don't match up with that theory. As for the beep test results, I've not looked into who leaked them - maybe it was Donovan?
This is a pretty pointless statement. If both were on the roster, Donovan likely would already have played. Green hasn't and won't, let's not be ludicrous. That's the point. Klinsmann used up a roster spot on a player who will not get minutes, in the process excluding a player who most certainly would have. Yeah, sorry, this is wrong. One guy made the decision and wasn't able to justify it (and indeed didn't even make an attempt to explain it). He didn't snub Donovan because Donovan has nothing to add. You know it, I know it, Klinsmann knows it, everyone else knows it. Don't be assinine. Donovan was "himself" one year ago in the Gold Cup. Again, don't be silly.
Again based strictly on what I saw. Like you I have seen Donovan for 12 years + and he was significantly bigger than I have ever seen him He said he could not have 12 great days of training, sorry I misquoted. But that's not what JK wanted to hear. He wanted to hear a player who was angry and pissed off if he didn't have a great day of training. A player who went back to his room trying to figure out how he could have a great one tomorrow. That was the spirit JK wanted to instill in the whole team. And he needed to leave a more talented player off the roster to build that spirit he was willing to do that. Now it's reasonable to disagree with that mindset. Many coaches treat veterans different, give them drills or even days off expecting them to deliver later that's fine. Not questioning that criticism. But even if you think that thought process was wrong you still have to credit JK with picking what HE thought was the best team. It doesn't mean the decision was strictly or in anyway personal. Plus Donovan is not a neutral party of course he is going to say he was in shape. What would you expect him to say. Finally the team JK picked seems to be doing well. Can't this be used as evidence that maybe he picked the right team? (Holy S**T did you see Messi's goal?)
I agree that Klinsmann probably does not feel like Donovan has a killer instinct. I'd strongly disagree with him based on his performances every where he has gone except for about a 10 month spell in Germany over a 15 year career - especially for the USMNT. You seem to have avoided my question, so I'll try to put it more succinctly You used Donovan's own statements in post #2126 to say that he was not sufficiently in shape. But once Donovan's own statements proclaim him to be in shape, you've dismissed them with "of course he'd say he's in shape". Again, why does his statement that he is out of shape become evidence to support the idea that he is, but when he says he is in shape, it's not given the same credence? I never thought that Donovan's exclusion was the death knell, and that's what these results prove. I would neither say that his exclusion was the right one or the wrong one based on these results - I do believe that the team is weaker without Donovan. I can't prove that to be right, or wrong. Tim Howard, for one, would agree with me I think based on his comments a few days prior to the cut. As do a long list of journalists who follow this team for a living, as well as a number of former US players. I've not seen anyone agree with the decision outside of a few posters here though many have tried to get inside JK's head to figure out the why. Dos golazos so far!
You can only bring 20 field players. It's not "who can help the team." It's who does the coach think can help the team the most. Boyd, E Johnson, AJ, and Wondo can all help this team but there's only enough roster space for 2 of them. That Donovan could maybe help this team isn't an argument for bringing him. Could he help the team more then one of the 20 field players on the roster. And the man who has to make that decision didn't think so. And I have no problem with that. The 2 of them didn't see eye to eye and Donovan didn't really buy into what Klinsman wanted from his players or the team. A team is about the team and not about the individual players. That's why the zus has consistently over achieved in big tournaments the last decade.
Clearly he wouldn't have or he would be here. Makes sense unless you are into conspiracies To your satisfaction. He said Donovan wasn't up to par seems as good a justification as anyone needs. What do you want him to say. Donovan came in out of shape and took drills off? Than the meme on JK would have been he disrespected Donovan. Coaches are never honest when it comes to cuts. They always say it's a numbers game, and you were good enough. They never say "you dogged it during that drill" or "your six pak turned into a keg". He made a controversial decision one that a lot of people didn't agree with. Fine, not the first or the last coach to do that. But don't pretend like their is ANYTHING he could have said that would have placated you. Key is one year ago. After he was called into the fall qualifiers it looked like he was back on track for the World Cup. But then he didn't make it. So either something changed over the winter, which caused him to no longer be a viable option for the squad. Or it's a conspiracy to humiliate Donovan over some unknown issue. And the humiliation of Donovan was more important than his reputation as a coach. Yeh I know which makes more sense to me. And that's fine to disagree with JK of course. But JK leaving him off the team because he doesn't think his attitude is best for the team is very different than saying it was a personal issue (honestly don't know if you were one of the ones claiming it was personal but that seems to be the primary criticism of JK) First there is a massive difference between admitting you are out of shape for a friendly and admitting you are out of shape for WC training camp. 2nd I actually believe Donovan believed he was in good enough shape to make the team. Almost every professional player who is cut believes he is in good enough shape. But that's why someone else is paid to make the decision. Why do we trust a kid who admits to stealing the cookies but not always trust them when they deny it? But here is the thing. This has been done to death. As long as we are winning and the team seems unified you are not going to convince me that this was anything other than a footballing decision. And clearly nothing, including winning the World Cup is going to convince some people this was a good decision. So I am politely surrendering and hoping this thread finally goes off the front page.
Jurgen Klinsmann singing song in alien language: Songtitel: Wir sind schon auf dem Brenner (We are already on the burner)
There has been friction between the two of them since Donovan took his sabbatical. That's a fact. Klinsman has stated on numerous occasions that he wants all of his players to push themselves continuously and to play in as big of a league as possible. That's another fact. My opinion is that Klinsman doesn't think that Donovan has been pushing himself as hard as he can and he's taken the easy way out by staying in LA. Choosing lifestyle over bettering himself as a player and plying in as big of a league as possible. Donovan's choices have all been counter to what his coach has been saying publicly about what he expects from his players. Personally I had no problem with Donovan's sebatical. He had been the face of US soccer for over a decade and had been playing professionally for 15 years. He was burned out. If anyone deserved a break it was him. But if your national team coach doesn't agree with your vacation then you the player have to deal with the consequences. In the end the coach picks the best team possible. The fact is that Donovan didn't fit into the team that Klinsman wanted to build. It's up to the player to meet the coaches expectations, not the other way around. Whether or not the player agrees with what the coach wants.
You make lots of good points - thanks for the well thought out response. Donovan's ambitions to play in Europe and success (or lack thereof there) have sometimes been misrepresented, IMO. I went into it much more deeply in this post. LD has succeeded EVERYWHERE he has played except Germany. From his time on the U-17s when he won the golden boot, to his phenomenal tournament in 2002, to having 5 goals in three World Cups (one unjustly taken away, and one forced own goal as well), to being the all time leading scorer and assist giver in MLS and for the USMNT. Has he had some klunkers for games? Ya, who hasn't? Did he excel in 2006 Germany? No, neither did anyone wearing Red, White & Blue. The problem with saying Klinsmann didn't like Donovan's sabbatical or choices that go against what Klinsmann wants from his players is that doesn't jibe with his allowing Chandler to wait and see if Germany would call him up to take over a year off from the NT, or not dropping Dempsey and Bradley for not challenging themselves. I'm sorry, but the idea that Landon was somehow a problem in the locker room is ludicrous. I agree (how could I not lol) that the coach picks the best team possible. In my opinion, the evidence points to a decision much more based on personal reasons, than tactical ones. It's been hashed and rehashed - I doubt I could say anything new, or that would change someone's mind at this point.
Of course it's a personal decision by Klinsman. He didn't think that Donovan was buying into what he wanted the team to be about or what he expected from his players. No one, including me, is saying he would have been a problem in the locker room. I think Donovan would have been great in the locker room. It comes down to the 2 of them not seeing eye to eye and the player lost. Every coach makes these kinds of choices. Either the player buys into what the coach expects of them or their not on the team. After Donovan's sabbatical I don't think there is anything he could have done to appease Klinsman. But that's the risk he took by taking that time off. Again, I have no problem with him taking the time off. He deserved it. But he should have been aware what that would have done to his national team career with his coach. It's not about their personal relationship, it's their professional relationship. Coaches have tons of players on their teams that they don't personally like. But they get along professionally and the player does what the coach asks them to do.
Comparing Donovan's 6 month leave from professional soccer to Bradley, Dempsey, and Chandler is ridiculous. Bradley and Dempsey came back to MLS for ridiculous money and day to day playing time. No one but the two of them knows the conversations that went on between Chandler and Klinsman. Chandler was injured and not playing well for his club team for over a year. He just got back into form a month before the WC started. He's also a young kid who had a tough decision to make. And his form didn't warrant a call up for a long time.
More ridiculous than calling his 3 month sabbatical 6 months? Exaggeration for effect I guess. More ridiculous than saying it was OK for Demps and Bradley to come back for ridiculous money, but it wasn't OK for Landon to do so for ridiculous money? I'm sure you know that LD wanted to go to Everton on a transfer but MLS was having no part of that. More ridiculous than everything you just typed trying to justify Chandler's sabbatical inclusion?
Actually, as many of us remember, Donovan mailed in most of the 2006 WC. And here are his highlights from last night's US Cup match. (don't look too close ... I see none) http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/socce...ion-railhawks-in-u-s--open-cup-155957395.html
The only thing idiotic is showing you cannot read. No one said Landon wouldn't be any good due to the Carolina game. Too much emotion from the peanut gallery once again. What I keep reading is that we would have done better if Landon played. Well, devil's advocate says, that's definitely questionable if at the same time on more rest, he couldn't help his team at least draw against NASL competition. Could he help in Brasil based on current form? Maybe. Or maybe not. But not being able to help LAG get even a draw against NASL competition complicates the assumption that had he stepped on the pitch against Portugal, he would have helped us get a better result.
Now, I await the long list of standout performers in Germany (and strongly disagree that Landon "mailed it in") I think I see your point here, but perhaps you could elucidate?
This is rich, try to follow along. So, please point out the part in my post where I claim someone did say that. Perhaps it is your emotions which are clouding your reading skills?
Don't make me look for quotes. They are not flattering. As to decent performances - in 2006, Beasley, Dempsey, Convey, Keller, Lewis, Bocanegra, Reyna, McBride at least busted their tails. Donovan just melted away under pressure. Let me speculate a little - a guy who showed very little against a mid-table NASL team isn't likely to be a game changer at the World Cup level? Does that sound reasonable?
Pardon me, but it is idiotic to imply that LD would not be any good in this World Cup because his team didn't score a goal in ONE GAME. His team dominated Carolina - soccer happened. No one said that. You're really struggling here. Maybe it's that you've being arguing about Landon for the last five or so hours.... This is why teachers recommend study breaks.
Oh, so we're quantifying ass-busting now? A for efforts I guess. Yep, that's what I thought. Sound logic.
Including me. Pardon me, but it is idiotic to imply that LD would not be any good in this World Cup because his team didn't score a goal in ONE GAME. His team dominated Carolina - soccer happened. I've bolded and underlined the key word for you. I did not claim that anyone said it. Words have meanings and you might want to learn at least that one. Maybe by your fifth hour, you're reading skills will sharpen?
yes, it is. This is why national coaches call up best players from best teams, not worst players from worst teams. And Carolina Railhawks ain't very good. (though, they're better than the LA Galaxy ... let me add this for emphasis ... better than the first team of the LA Galaxy ... with Keane, Donovan, Zardes, Sarvas, Juninho and all)
I agree with you, sir. Donovan is the worst player on the worst team. Carolina is a better team than the Galaxy. The evidence is unequivocal. Remember when Switzerland was better than Spain back in 2010? And we were as good as Italy in 2006? Ya, me neither.
With full 20/20 hindsight, where would you have used LD seeing how the Ghana and Portugal matches played out?