Cut child because parents are, um, "difficult"?

Discussion in 'Coach' started by elessar78, Apr 14, 2014.

  1. BUSA Bulldog

    BUSA Bulldog Member

    Jan 19, 2007
    NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just wow - sorry to whomever deals with this kind of stuff
    What is his end game? Why bully and undermine? I just don't see the mind set.
     
  2. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    You find that kind of mindset occasionally in corporate middle management, but more often in high school cafeterias.
     
  3. I think his whole purpose was to get his daughter more play time / a better position on the team or play up with better players. He figured if he could get people upset at the coach and really disgruntled, he could suck up more, be the good guy maybe, get his daughter on the inside track. That didn't work so he tried to take over the team. Then he could start his daughter and play her the whole game. After that didn't work, he was hoping to get people to leave the age-up team, because a better chance his daughter would make it if there was a bunch of girls leaving.

    Everything he did was to further his daughter's soccer "career" yes, just like middle management I guess. Or a mean girl in the high school cafeteria who wants to be head cheerleader.

    I do feel bad for her current coach, he's a really good guy, I'm not sure he knows the full history...
     
  4. Timbuck

    Timbuck Member

    Jul 31, 2012
    Did anyone let the coach know what was going on?
    I know parents all talk about coaches and other players on occasion, but this seems a little crazy.
    I just had a girl leave our team for a low end club. This girl was decent, but probably the 9th best out of 12 on my team. Not very engaged at practice. Kind of a whiner. Last one back from every water break. When her parents enrolled her in winter or summer camps, she didn't want to be there. (These were run by different coaches. Not within our league).
    Now she is moving to an expensive club because her parents didn't think she developed enough this past season. And that her friends that she "was better than a year ago" improved a lot. One of her good friends is on this new team. I was talking with their new coach this past weekend and he told me that he is giving the friend one more year and if she doesn't get her mind working better on the field, then he won't bring her back. Our team played against her new team in a futsal match earlier this week and it wasn't even close. We beat them handily.
    Hopefully her new coach can get more out of her than we could.
     
  5. zeepers

    zeepers New Member

    Jun 4, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    Just to be up front, I'm a travel team manager (BU12), my son was on the team, he was not chosen at spring, 2014 tryouts. Ordinary enough story on the surface. I get that and I hope someone will not assume I'm just trying to drum up sympathy and continue to read.

    Fall 2013: Regular Season: 6-2-0. The coach had me roster a GK who was put in at game 8 of the season and for three more games of the end-the-season tournament. I had mentioned this GK--whom I had never seen--to him a month or so prior and the coach said he knew the GK and rejected him out of hand. GF/GA for this series of four: 0.21. GF/GA for the first 7 regular season games: 4.50. GF/GA for the tournament and fall regular season: 4.71. The GK position had been filled round-robin prior to this. I learned later former GKs begged--literally--the coach to sub in and he refused.

    Spring 2014: Regular Season: 4-10-3. GF/GA: 0.70. Three weeks left in the season, my son scores the only goal in the game that broke a 10-game losing streak and makes two more solid attempts and was still benched after his usual five minutes, because he "lost focus". This was three weeks prior to the end of the season and after the game, he said he couldn't stand to be around the coach any more. It was a complete loss of respect. He came to the remaining games because he couldn't turn his back on the team, but practiced with other teams. We were up front about it with the coach. We didn't tell anyone else on the team unless we were asked and then we said it was just a "bad fit" that became obvious. My relationship with the coach was never warm and fuzzy, but we seemed to work well together in taking care of the team. I hope it's not too much of a stretch to believe all this.

    My son was not picked up in tryouts this spring but the first GK I mentioned above was. The coach moved to U16 though he is known for staying with his teams through high school. He has at least 11 years experience at this club alone and many years with other clubs.

    I notified the club and the USYS office for our state that I had concerns without going into any details and that I was looking for direction. Two hours later, the club responded they had investigated and concluded there was no foundation.

    My son went to as many other tryouts as we could squeeze in and it looks like he'll have a home.

    This is where I'm trying to get to: It's obvious now that my son was shut out of this club, and probably well before the losing-streak-breaking game. The curious thing is that it seems that the closer the association with whatever club we were trying out for this spring with the club he was originally shut out from, the more clear it has seemed they were not going to pick him. The club that he will likely play for has the least association with the original club.

    In other words, the "fix" seems to have been spread to other clubs in the area.

    What I wonder about is what kind of reason is needed for the coaching "community" to buy in on shutting out a particular player and/or his family.

    Is it sufficient for one coach to let it be known that he just doesn't like a player or family and the other coaches shouldn't either? Or does it take reasons like a tendency towards abuse in the player and/or family, gross neglect of the team, the things you might expect and which would, in this case, be fabrications.

    I'm trying to look out for my son and plan ahead. If simple dislike in one coach is sufficient for some or all area coaches to reject a player, then youth soccer around here is so politically charged, and so poisonous, that we should probably look for something else.

    I also get there are many, many ways to look at what I've said here and I feel pretty sure almost all of them will assume to varying degrees that I am deluded. Noted. Naive, Dumb as Mud: Check, check. Etc.

    But maybe there is someone who may have something to say that we can use to make more intelligent decisions about my son's soccer. The one constant through all of this is that he dearly loves the game. I made him a platform with turf and crumb rubber so he could practice his kicking and the exercises from beastmodesoccer.com. He's on it every day. He'll do all his homework, etc., without complaining because of it.

    My relationship with other TMs and parents in the club remains good. I've been invited to the annual TM meeting even after I told them I would be very unlikely to manage a team. I am apparently regarded as the goto person for US Club Soccer issues and have helped several other managers deal with Kyck.com.

    It's like that.

    I've attached the team's record for the 2013-14 year. The second GK is ODP who is playing up this year. I honestly think this coach completely broke the spirit of the team. God help me to know why.

    Thank you very much for any time and consideration.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. SoccerCoach101

    SoccerCoach101 New Member

    Jun 8, 2014
    Club:
    CF Rayados de Monterrey
    It depends on the degree of the problems of course. But, there are several examples where a parent can cause problems throughout the entire team and the parent group- it can ruin the experience of the team as a whole. It is too simple to say - don't punish the kid for the parent's actions - what if it hurts the whole team? and this certainly happens regardless of the experience of the coach- not to say there are not several things to try to do first to resolve these issues- as noted in other posts - but, sometimes the best thing to do is to not select the player. And if the question is :"Does this really happen?" -- the answer is yes - and while maybe it's not happening all the time- it certainly happens more than the rare exception
     
  7. Timbuck

    Timbuck Member

    Jul 31, 2012
    Parents can be bad but grandparents are the WORST.
    We have a new girl on our team that started with us this spring. She is a great player (we will be u10 in the upcoming Fall season). She is defensive minded but can play anywhere. We currently play "goalkeeper by committee." In the Spring, I would play 2,3 or 4 goalkeepers in a game. 10 of our 12 players spent some time in goal. (the other 2 would run away screaming at the thought of playing in goal).
    Anyway - We had a tournament 2 weeks ago. We played 3 games.
    This "new" girl played in goal in 1/2 of a 1 game in the tournament. It happened to be the 1 game that we lost.
    Grandma was overheard saying "I can't figure out why she lets him manipulate her into playing in goal. He only does that because she doesn't have any close friends on the team."
    This girl is really sweet, but a little bit shy. A lot of the girls on the team have a best friend or at least a very close classmate on the team. This new girl is at a different school than most of the girls (there are 5 different elementary schools represented on our team). The parents are divorced and this makes it hard for this player to socialize with all of the girls. We have Friday night get togethers and this player hasn't showed up. We often go out for lunch together as a team after a game, but they are usually playing the "parent shuffle" and she isn't able to make it. I realize that family is more important than 9 year old girls soccer, but you can't complain that she isn't buddies with the team if no effort is made to hang out away from practice/games.
    (1 girl played in goal in at least 1/2 of all 3 games during this tournament. She was a guest player. Another girl (the assistant coaches daughter) played 1/2 of 1 game and 1/4 of another game in goal.
    At this age, I try to let girls have some say in what positions they play. Not everyone gets to play "center mid" every game as there are 2 girls that really excel there, but I do give some others opportunities.
     
  8. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think there are instances when a family might get blackballed across clubs. But that's pretty hard to do. Coaches may be in contact with other coaches in other clubs, and I'll just speak for myself, but I won't go out of my way to blackball a family to one club much less multiple. Most of the time, if you're a difficult parent your reputation will precede you and I won't really need to say anything. Secondly, I won't say anything about a parent unless I'm asked directly ("What do you know about the Smiths?").

    Player ability isn't really discussed either, IMO. There are hundreds of players across multiple clubs—how one would get singled out (unless he's spectacularly good or violent) is beyond me. Even bad players don't get singled out because there are a ton of bad players. Not even if you're REALLY awful player would you be even on the discussion radar of a coach I see maybe once a season. AND even if the really bad player comes up, most coaches have at least enough class to be tactful about it.

    This may come across harsh, but it's not directed at you—I have one player that won't be asked back after tryouts. Unfortunately he hasn't improved enough in comparison with his teammates and I'm not seeing the potential for improvement. His parents are great (read: low maintenance, uninvolved) so it's not them. If asked why he wasn't offered a spot, I will leave it at "It's not a good fit" unless really pressed further. Much kinder, IMO, than "He hasn't kept up with his teammates' development and I just don't see potential." I mean, every kid has potential don't get me wrong it's just a matter of how long I'm willing to work with it and wait for it in a selective environment?

    And lest I'm seen as a monster . . . in this cadre, him and five other kids were all at the same level in August. One quit and chose hockey, the other four worked hard and in six months were starter material.

    Is spending hours at it enough? Or do we still need to show improvement in practices and in games? If he's working then, I've still yet to see a player who has not improved over time but when the results show is unknown.
     
  9. zeepers

    zeepers New Member

    Jun 4, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    Thanks very much. Actually, it helps clear up some things. If you're willing to accept that coaches are just trying to do a job--like you would expect--they are going to make choices that they think best support them doing their job. IOWs, no one's going to want to roster a player--even a clearly good or possibly exceptional one--with a lot of unnecessary "baggage".

    Including the coach, about half the team were families who were variously VPs (Sometimes multi-nationals), doctors, lawyers, senior analysts and so on and so forth, very well connected and whose enthusiasm for politics at this level, on a scale from 1 to 10, I would put at "absolutely rabid". I just stayed neutral unless I was praising the whole team.

    What I can see more clearly now is if these people were to just seem disappointed or concerned at the right time and place and with the right people, they could effectively blacklist a player, or someone like me, without ever saying anything specific. Anything at all.

    It's just hard to imagine that there are people right next to you who would use such great resources to accomplish so little. It's like a kid who has spent his whole life working to be able to say, "I can do whatever I want and you can't stop me!" It reminds me of the new billionaire that bought cases and cases of very expensive, very vintage wine just to fill a bathtub and bathe in it. A gold bathtub, no doubt.

    Narcissism gone wild. Life was meant to actually accomplish things, in my humble opinion.

    Thanks again.
     
  10. zeepers

    zeepers New Member

    Jun 4, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    You give me the impression that if you knew a player wasn't coming back, you would give someone at least a clue, if only for the benefit of the doubt. Maybe a wake-up call in time to make more try outs elsewhere. Something.

    That's all I would have asked for.
     
  11. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Perhaps I would. The parents haven't said a word to me since Feb/March and it wasn't even about their kid—it was about getting another kid on the team. It could be animosity. It could be they're just hands off.
     
  12. GKbenji

    GKbenji Member+

    Jan 24, 2003
    Fort Collins CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    zeepers, look closely at Timbuck's post #32. Here we have a case where a person immediately assumes the worst (kid is in goal because the coach "manipulated" her and because she hasn't made any friends). The real truth is quite different.

    It's easy to assume a "fix" is in when things don't go your way. Now, don't get me wrong, you may well have justification for leaving your currently coach and club. But the real reason coaches--especially experienced ones--don't play kids usually has little to do with the parents. Whatever this last season's coach saw--or didn't see--in your child may be the same thing that other coaches/clubs are seeing.

    I do find fault with your old coach/club for not addressing this sooner, and when not asked back, giving some reasons why and some things he needs to work on to improve. But, reading between the lines, your son was not getting much playing time to begin with... players on competitive teams need to step up and find out from their coaches what's up. That's tough for an 11-year-old, and parents can be involved in the discussion, but if this coach was worth his salt, he'd be able to pinpoint 2-3 things your kid could do to improve his standing on the team.

    A variation of Hanlon's Razor probably applies here. The original is "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by mere stupidity." In this case, it's probably not stupidity but other perfectly logical factors... by likely not malice.
     
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  13. zeepers

    zeepers New Member

    Jun 4, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    I have been a great fan of Hanlon without knowing it for a very long time. But it brings me back to my original problem.

    The team's record is attached to post #30. In "Tourney #4", game 2, that goal is my son's. The coach was in the habit of playing him for five minutes per half. My son had started to talk about how dissatisfied he was becoming and I had told him that if it becomes too much sitting on the bench, he could just get up and leave. I would back him up. 15 minutes into the second half, he is looking at me, almost staring, and I can tell he's about to walk. Suddenly the coach puts him in and literally one minute later there's the goal, from a made-to-order cross pass. He makes two more near misses and, five minutes later, he's back out. The coach said he had "lost focus" and then gave the credit for the goal to the passer. It was a good pass, to be sure. I gave him credit for the pass also.

    As you can see, it started a short lived rally in the record.

    Last game of the spring season (6-0), the first two goals are my son's. The second was by punching the ball from under a defender in a slide tackle from the penalty box line. He got ten minutes in the game this time. Another rally. It turns out his mother had asked him for a hat trick for Mother's Day.

    At a 11v11 scrimmage earlier in the season, we were short on time and there was 15 minutes, about, left in the game. His mother went to the bench to get him, the coach saw her coming, and before she could get there, put our son in for the remainder of the game at CF, a position he'd never played before, but he loved it. It still creeps me out the way that happened.

    Our relationship was not "warm and fuzzy", as stated earlier, but there was never an unkind word said.

    He's been at this club for 11 years. D license. I really do believe in the goodness of people and I would love to attribute the coach's behavior to stupidity or some other factors. I just don't know how.

    I do know that when someone says he was just intent on making his favorites look good for moving up no matter what the cost to the team, I can think of nothing to say.
     
  14. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    Being dropped from a U12 team may seem like a big setback now, but life is full of disappointments. If he is going to continue to play competitive soccer, getting cut happens to everyone, including Landon Donovan. It is what you do about the disappointments that is important. Your son loves soccer, practices on his own, and is playing on another team. Sounds like he has moved on, which is ideal.
     
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  15. GKbenji

    GKbenji Member+

    Jan 24, 2003
    Fort Collins CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Okay, so there's obviously a problem. Did your son (or you) ever ask the coach directly why he was only getting 5 minutes a half? Whether there were some honest soccer-on-the-field issues (coaches look at more than goals, you know), or it was ignorance, spite or stupidity, you should at least try to find out.

    I know that I have certainly pissed off parents by doing something unknowingly or ignorantly, and didn't find out about it until they stomped off in a huff. Had they simply asked, I could have told them I had a good reason, or could have corrected the problem. I'm not saying all coaches are that self-aware or honest, but still....

    That said, I applaud you for sticking out your commitment, and then finding a better situation for yourself.
     
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  16. zeepers

    zeepers New Member

    Jun 4, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    Actually, yes, we did. The coach passed around a document early on detailing how a travel team is a "meritocracy" not a "democracy" with the merits being decided by the coach. For my son to play more than five minutes or so was "against his policies" and he would not change them. But he never stated them, either, at least in any way that would show what standards he was actually adhering to.

    What got to my son was not sitting on the bench or not starting. To be honest, I've always said "five minutes--about" because that was the usual length of time he would play without doing something that could be perceived as a mistake. He got pulled at his first mistake at about five minutes. There were three other players who were treated like this, as well.

    What really got to him was sitting through ten straight losses and four others while being pulled at his first "mistake" while the "regulars" stayed in the whole game, making obvious mistakes (passing the ball out of bounds or to the other team, missing the ball altogether, wild shots at the goal from mid field right past teammates who were open) wholesale, and often losing the game simply because they became exhausted first. But it was the discrepancy in the number of mistakes allowed by the coach that most got to my son.

    Is it possible that this kind of coaching can be done innocently? From a coach with roughly 20 years experience?

    Sincerely, I not asking rhetorically. I honestly do not know. This is only my second year in travel.

    I will say this: If it is possible, I think we earn every derogatory opinion of our youth soccer we get from the rest of the world.
     
  17. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It's hard for me to judge a coach via a third party observation and one that cannot be reliably impartial. It's sad that he would bench particular players for extended periods on a team that wasn't winning anyway. I coached a girl who was in a similar situation—she played on my team and on a pay for play club team. She'd play five minutes a game and would come out as soon as she made a mistake. When you get in that cycle, as a player, you're too tight and you feel too much pressure to play perfectly or else you're coming off—the game is much more forgiving than that at the younger level.
     
  18. zeepers

    zeepers New Member

    Jun 4, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    Thank you. That's why I told him to walk off if it gets to be too much. I wanted him to know he wasn't hopelessly stuck in the situation.

    It became a bit heart-wrenching. Whenever the lineman would hold up the flag for subs, he and/or the others would immediately stare across the pitch at the subs and the coach, convinced it was their time.

    What became too much for me was realizing these minority players were being trained to give up at around five minutes. They all started to deflate after that much time, I'm sure because they become certain that, no matter what they did or how well they did it, their time was about up.

    When I told the coach my son might not return for the last few games, the coach told me--in writing--the games should be "regarded preferentially" because he "needed his subs".

    I'll ask again: Can a very veteran coach think this is a good way to play a team? It does NOT make sense to me. That's why I keep talking about it. Is this sort of thing actually possible with a highly experienced coach with genuinely good intentions?
     
  19. Coach_Hayles

    Coach_Hayles Member

    Dec 23, 2013
    Redmond, WA
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It's my personal opinion that 5 minutes isn't enough time to do anything, even at 6v6. With larger sides it's even more likely you have barely seen the ball in that time. Even when I play myself, it takes a good 10-15 minutes for me to get into the game comfortably. So when I'm coaching I make sure to give the kids on the field a good 10-15 minutes before subbing them - even if they're playing badly. And when I sub them out it's mainly to give them a rest and talk over some things I'd like them to work on.

    So while I don't want to second guess your son's coach or the reasons for him being cut, in answer to your question about game time, I personally don't feel like your son was give much opportunity to develop and, as you point out, the coaching may well have been conditioning certain players to play scared. That runs against my personal philosophy but then again, I coach rec, not a select team. Maybe the pressures there are different?
     
  20. McGilicudy United

    Dec 21, 2010
    Florida
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Its very unfortunate about your son being treated that way. Its also hard to judge what is behind the coaches decision making process from across the country on the internet. Perhaps there is too much emphasis on winning? (you keep bringing up W/L records) Maybe his effort level isn't the same as the other kids? I'm unsure, but for a U12 to only play 5 minutes seems unreasonable.

    I have a few players that I would like to cut from my current girls team. One i am having a parent issue with, he's not able to cope with not being a coach anymore. Also, his child basically refuses to give 100% effort, and if she is not played where she wants to be played, she has no interest. Hopefully next year, there will be more players interested in competitive soccer in our age group.
     
  21. Ihateusernames

    May 16, 2007
    Merriam, KS
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You probably said it and I don't remember, but I assume it's not a fitness issue? Last year with my u9 girls I had that issue. I had two girls who couldn't go much beyond 5 minute stints due to a lack of fitness while some girls could go all game. It didn't matter how well or poorly they played, they had to come out because they were gassed. Not surprisingly, these were the problem kids/parents I had. Neither are back even though I have two open roster spots right now.
     
  22. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Not a fitness issue.
     
  23. Ihateusernames

    May 16, 2007
    Merriam, KS
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then I'm out. Though my best player does have a motor that revs so high she can't go much longer than 5 minutes in a spurt but I don't think that's relevant here. I just hate dealing with parents in general. I'm always worried they are going to start sh*t.
     
  24. FootyLad

    FootyLad New Member

    Jun 24, 2014
    Club:
    Stoke City FC
    I remember when I was 16 playing for a local team. Our lone striker had a serious attitude issue and his father was a bit of a lunatic. The manager subbed him off one day and he tore his shirt off and instead of condemning him, his father joined in the abuse of the manager. Not an ideal scenario but rest assured the player was 'unavailable' for a few weeks after that.
     

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