Projected lineups and formations for '14 season

Discussion in 'D.C. United' started by Boloni86, Dec 13, 2013.

  1. Heist

    Heist Member+

    Jun 15, 2001
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think all of that is fair except perhaps for disappearing for entire games. There are plenty of reasons Kitchen hasn't been called up to the national team. That doesn't make him a bad player. The US is absolutely stacked at D-mid. I'd much prefer Kitchen to Simms personally. I do agree that Kitchen tends to play to the level of those surrounding him. I also don't think there is anyone who is a must-keep on this team frankly. For the right deal, I'd be willing to trade anyone on the team. I don't think there's a core to the team although there are plenty of good players and even quite a few upgrades over last year. The question at hand is whether Olsen and the players can turn the collection of good players into a team that is better than the sum of their parts (2012) or much much worse (2013). We won't figure that out until we take the field.
     
  2. notebook

    notebook Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Yeah some of the criticism of Jakovic seems pretty harsh. At least the guy has shown he is capable of playing at a fairly high level. The fact that a Japanese J1 League team is interested in acquiring his rights says something - guessing there is not much of an international market for many of our players. Some of the posters have some good observations on Jakovic's overall play / contribution so on the whole this is probably a reasonable decision but it does leave a hole to fill. And based on White's play to date I do not see him as the answer.

    Kitchen is in a different category for me - personally unlike Jakovic I have not seen him play at a high level at all - to me his playing levels so far range from mediocre to bad. On Pontius - have to give the man some slack - it was just a year back (2012 season) that he had a MLS Best XI year. Yes as a fan it was disappointing / frustrating to see him miss so many games but none of us know the exact nature of his injuries and let's hope he is back in form in 2014.
     
  3. shammypants

    shammypants Member+

    Oct 9, 2013
    Club:
    DC United
    I think looking at this club in relation to our conference, you have to go back a bit further than 2012 to situate us. I am comfortable predicting that if we only get one other player (someone from the Super Draft) I think a good, solid guess for the 2014 season is a repetition of the 2011 season, where we are a middling club that misses the playoffs, but at least we don't humiliate ourselves and sit at the bottom 5 in the table.
     
  4. notebook

    notebook Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    I am with you on Kitchen - I have not been that impressed to date. And actually you are too generous in this post - a central midfielder (even defensive) should make more contributions to the attack. I just looked at his stats and apparently he did get 4 assists last year so perhaps part of my impression are the particular games I watched over past few years where he has contributed absolutely nothing to the attack. And like you said has had some howlers on defense. He has a decent work rate but isn't a guy who is all over the field regaining and retaining possession. I am always surprised at the high regard that many posters (particularly some of the USMNT followers) seem to hold him in. I think he could develop into a decent MLS defensive midfielder but he is not there yet and I am not sure he will get there. Funny how that DeRosario - Dax McCarty trade looks a little different now (even though I just loved watching DeRo in 2011).
     
  5. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've got issues with both of them. But Kitchen's just a kid, he gets time in my book. The thing with him is that he won't make horrible blunders to cost games, he errs, too often maybe, on the side of caution. Pontius I'll give you, he does get off easy. He's cost United plenty of points by missing when he should be scoring, his performance last year was shocking. The thing is, I don't have some strange hatred of him because he's perceived to be good looking, he's been productive before and that's the starting point. I don't think he's only kept around because LL Cool Chris.
     
  6. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

    Jun 7, 2000
    Baltimore
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Gibraltar
    LOL Shammy ... how did the national team end up in this conversation?

    In MLS all that matters is whether you're useful relative to the cap space you occupy. I think by those standards Kitchen is a pretty fair bargain. There are plenty of useful players in MLS that don't get call ups especially when they're young. Kitchen is not bankrupting us and is not a primary reason for why the team sucks. With time, coaching and confidence the guy can still improve.

    "Coaching" is probably the key word there. Individual pieces of a puzzle will usually look bad when the whole puzzle is out of order. There needs to be a plan to put all the pieces together effectively and then the beauty of the whole overcomes the shortcomings of the individual.

    Kitchen's biggest handicap has been often being misused ... played out of position ... and partnered with sub par players in midfield. With the right application Kitchen could actually be a very useful part of an MLS team IMO
     
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  7. nick

    nick Member+

    Nov 23, 1998
    Potomac Falls, Va
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    White to me is a significant downgrade from Jakovic. If you feel Boswell is also a downgrade from Jakovic then we are looking at a CB pairing worse than last year. That is just not good enough and is a major weakness on this team.

    A number of folks are saying well lets just get an above average CB for less than 200k. I say where?? Who are you going to get. We may get lucky in the draft or pick up another CB from a team that has cap problems but in that case we are back to paying a significant amount for a CB who may or may not be at Jakovic's level.

    We cannot go into this season with White and Korb as 2 of our starting defenders. That is a recipe for another very disappointing season in the back. You can see just how much a weak CB situation can be by looking at a team like Toronto for the last few years.
     
  8. nick

    nick Member+

    Nov 23, 1998
    Potomac Falls, Va
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you want to talk about mistakes leading to goals I can't believe your just not livid about Korb's "contribution" last year.
     
  9. nick

    nick Member+

    Nov 23, 1998
    Potomac Falls, Va
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with your argument but I think that applies to Pontius and DeLeon, but not to Kitchen. In fact, Kitchen was one of the very, very few bright spots on the team last season.
     
  10. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    Yeah, Ethan White should be at Richmond. Only because we have no one else.
     
  11. nick

    nick Member+

    Nov 23, 1998
    Potomac Falls, Va
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Absolutely. That level of player is just not good enough for where MLS is going as it moves from MLS 2.0 to 3.0 in the next year or so.
     
  12. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Take in context my friend. Korb sucks, he's pretty terrible. He also made less than 50k last year. You get what you pay for, which is a borderline player at the MLS level. Oh, and he managed to start 30 matches, which is quite more of a strain on your eyes than watching Jakovic's bungling for a mere 17.
    And before you say Jakovic had to cover for Korb, which is true, so did White. But more importantly, Korb didn't make him take horrible chances that led to gut wrenching goals against.
    As far as your opinion of White vs. Jakovic, you're banking on the eye test, when cold hard facts say they are the same. I'm not convinced White is a MLS caliber defender yet, but he's proven to be no worse than Jakovic, so it makes sense to see if he can improve and jettison the one who's proven he isn't good enough.
    Jakovic will play beautifully and in a 'superior' fashion, right before ripping your heart out. I'm over it.
     
  13. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

    Jun 7, 2000
    Baltimore
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Gibraltar
    Come on .... seriously? I remember more than a few games over the years where Jakovic was the best player on the field ... especially late '12. I can't say I ever recall White being a massive factor in any win we've ever had. At best he's been okay. There's no doubt that Jakovic at his best can be a major influence on the team. I don't subscribe to this opinion that Jakovic was ever abnormally prone to catastrophic brain farts. He had about as many as an average MLS CB ... and was above average in many other areas.

    Anyways it's pointless to compare the 2 ... they're different salaries, different ages, different expectations. At the end of the day I'm okay with selling him. He was too expensive (which is our fault to begin with) and there was a transfer fee ... however small. And my gut tells me that judging by his performance down the stretch Dejan wanted out anyways.

    What we should really be focusing on however is our defense going forward. So far I'm pretty alarmed with what we've got.
     
  14. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    True, I didn't state it correctly. The team fared no better or worse with either Jakovic or White in the team in 2013. As far as brain farts, he was more guilty than the rightfully derided Erpen. Just watch the 2013 highlights. Between him and McDonald, you might need to boil your eyeballs after.
    Massive factor in wins? He doesn't score, so you're not talking about that. Don't you judge a defender on goals against? And then break it down from there on how personally involved the defender was involved in the goals against. In either case, he comes up short against White.
     
  15. Hedbal

    Hedbal Member+

    Jul 31, 2000
    DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oddly enough, I thought Jacovic had a future as a DM, as he seemed to pick his game up when he wasn't the last man and responsible for snuffing out an attack. But then came Kitchen, and even Thorrington was better suited.
     
  16. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Through all this, there's been some evidence that Jakovic played CB like a DM. His go to was to try and intercept passes before they reached their intended target. He was good at it. As a DM, it's a necessary skill, as a CB, it's a constant battle with risk/reward. I don't think he acknowledged or cared that if he wasn't successful with the interception, that was it, there was no one behind him to pick up the pieces. Also, some of the passing he attempted was admirable, and not so dangerous or at least foolish as a DM. As a CB, it's right down your throat and in the net.
     
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  17. nobletea

    nobletea Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 29, 2004
    HarCo
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree with this. My skill set saw me play most of my outdoor games as the front of the diamond defense. At first I was just a defender, anywhere on the back line, but over time coaches saw that I could tackle, mark, intercept, pass, and even shoot, so I got told to play in front of the other CB. Honestly, I didn't even understand it completely at the time, but looking back I see how smart it was. I knew how to cover for the sweeper and outside backs, reading the play, and I knew how to play to the wings and drop a ball behind the defense in transition, the former had a .5 GPG defense and the latter resulting in a championship winning assist.

    Jakovic has a similar mindset and skillset, but I think he just never got a good chance to take up that spot and make it his.

    But he got plenty of time here to make his mark, and I don't think he ever lived up to expectations or potential.

    All of that said, it still leaves a hole to fill.
     
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  18. John L

    John L Member+

    Sep 20, 2003
    Alexandria, VA

    Finally, a sense of reason here - Instead of a Flat-Back Four, we should have played a Diamond-Four with Jakovic as "Stopper" and Mac as the Sweeper - Given their respective skills and tendencies, this would have worked much better than we had even at the end of 2012, and certainly the first half of 2013
     
  19. nobletea

    nobletea Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 29, 2004
    HarCo
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you hadn't repped me, I'd have thought you were being sarcastic.

    The last time I coached a team with a diamond defense was a pretty poor rec league team for 12-14 year olds. In general, most people don't utilize a "diamond" anymore as far I know. Maybe I'm wrong. It seems like an easy way to explain a player's role to him/her, and not much more than that.

    The problem is that by HS in most cases these days, the offensive players are too dangerous to isolate your CB's in a diamond, at least, it seems to me. And in a lot of other youth teams, players are in and out of the teams and lineups so often that it's hard for the two CB's to get a working understanding of each other.

    More often, in college and pros we talk more about having a CB "pairing" or tandem, which elludes to most of the same skill sets and roles, just not in such strict formation-al terms.
     
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  20. John L

    John L Member+

    Sep 20, 2003
    Alexandria, VA
    Its hard at ANY level - I go with the Diamond at nearly every youth level - Its just easiest to explain roles, and with a pair of Central midfielders NOT in a diamond, you have lots of natural passing triangles

    Maybe an outright strictly done diamond would have been vulnerable, but a flat-back system could still slightly morph that way to take advantage of tendencies and strengths
     
  21. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

    Jun 7, 2000
    Baltimore
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Gibraltar
    Not sure how the diamond would work at pro level. Does the sweeper hold the offsides line by himself? Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

    And really the stopper is just another name for a pure defensive mid. The closest thing to a diamond would be the 3-5-2 ... although not exactly
     
  22. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

    Jun 7, 2000
    Baltimore
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Gibraltar
    With recent developments ... assuming Espindola is signed ... and assuming we get the left back Kasper mentioned

    ---------------------------------------HAMID
    ---------------------------------------Willis
    FRANKLIN----------BOSWELL-----------PARKE---------------NEW LB
    Robinson--------------Birnbaum--------------Attakora---------------Korb
    -------------------------KITCHEN-----------ARNAUD
    -------------------------Jeffrey-----------------Neal
    DE LEON--------------------------SILVA-------------------------PONTIUS
    Porter-------------------------------Espindola------------------------Kemp
    --------------------------------------JOHNSON
    ---------------------------------------Doyle

    Richmond : Dykstra, Shanosky, Martin, Munoz, Townsend, Seaton

    Getting that left back gets us to 28 players. In past seasons we stayed put at 28, but this year with CCL I'd expect maybe they go to 30. My guess is both attackers, at least one of them a winger.
     
  23. shammypants

    shammypants Member+

    Oct 9, 2013
    Club:
    DC United
    It's way more likely we play a flat 4-4-2 at this point with Espindola over Silva (especially since we were shopping Silva).
     
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  24. gremio1903

    gremio1903 Member+

    Aug 10, 2011
    Uruguaiana, RS (BRA) [last: Rockville, MD]
    Club:
    Gremio Porto Alegre
    We do not need to add anyone for CCL until August.
     
  25. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You've mentioned us "shopping Silva" a couple of times. But the only evidence of this I've heard is one report from Ives on goal.com that nobody else has been able to confirm, and so nobody else in the media has echoed it. Have I missed something?
     
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