Projected lineups and formations for '14 season

Discussion in 'D.C. United' started by Boloni86, Dec 13, 2013.

  1. 6 ft. Leprechaun

    Dec 9, 2003
    Baltimore, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He was the defender that made me the most nervous with the ball at his feet. Basically because I didn't trust where his head was at. He's talented but he gets in his own way.
     
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  2. nick

    nick Member+

    Nov 23, 1998
    Potomac Falls, Va
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Jakovic is much better than mediocre, he is very technical, fast, a strong one on one defender and is usually very well positioned. But he does have weaknesses. He is sometimes too casual with the ball, is not a vocal leader and can have an occasional lapse. Still, he is miles better than the rest of DCs defense. I think a vocal and steady leader like Boz would be a great pairing for Jakovic. Dominate CB are not easy to find. Jakovic can be one. And if I'm going to spend a little extra I would spend it down the spine of the team.
     
  3. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

    Jun 7, 2000
    Baltimore
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Gibraltar
    Bravo ... I commend you from so swiftly erasing Daniel Woolard from your memory. I'm still working on it
     
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  4. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    -Jakovic started 17 games last season (1575 minutes), Ethan White started 13 (1100). These are who we are comparing, right? Because Woolard and McDonald are gone. I will agree Jakovic is better than them, but I hope we can agree it has no meaning for this coming season.

    -Jakovic was -24 in '13, White -11. Advantage White.
    -Jakovic was in 2 shutouts, White 3. Advantage White.
    -Jakovic had one shot, White 4. This backs up my theory that Jakovic is useless offensively on set pieces. Career wise? Jakovic 12 shots, 1 goal in 5 seasons - White 10 shots 1 goal in 2 seasons. Advantage White.
    -Jakovic committed 18 fouls with 3 yellows, White 11 with 2. That's about equal considering minutes. Career wise, about the same: Jakovic 1 foul per game, 1 yellow every 5.5, White 1 foul per 1.5 games, 1 yellow every 6.5. Jakovic 2 reds, White zero. No advantage.
    -Jakovic completed 540 passes with 103 unsuccessful - an 84% completion rate. White was 318/108 for 75%. However, because it's my prerogative, I'd like to cite the passing stats from the three games they played together:
    White 92/21 for 81%, Jakovic 87/26 for 77%. I don't know what it means, but it's interesting somehow. It probably has something to do with how awful McDonald was.
    Neither had any assists, so it's not like United is losing Lubos Kubik. Nevertheless, advantage Jakovic.

    The rest of these stats are per 90. Based on Opta stats for 2013.
    Interceptions: Jakovic 6, White 1.33. Maybe Jakovic should be a DM? Big advantage Jakovic.
    Blocks: Jakovic .33, White 1.5. Big advantage White.
    Clearances: Jakovic 6, White 7. No advantage.
    Recoveries: Jakovic 6, White 6. No advantage.
    Headers: Jakovic 3, White 2. No advantage.
    Tackles: Jakovic 1.5, White 2. No advantage.
    Also, according to Opta, Jakovic was credited with one through ball on the season. White, one through ball and one key pass. No advantage.

    Basically we're looking at two players with the same production. These are the stats speaking. Remember, the same production.
    Ethan White: 22 yo (he'll be 23 on New Year's Day!), 75k base - 91k guaranteed.
    Dejan Jakovic: 28 yo, 280k base, 303k guaranteed.
    United was paying more than a little extra for someone whose production is matched by a backup. As far as I can tell he's the seventh highest paid center back in the league. Omar Gonzalez, Jay DeMerit, Clarence Goodson, Chad Marshall and Heath Pearce are all USNT vets, past or present. Carlos Valdes is a Colombian NT'er. And then there's Bakary Soumare, I don't know how the hell that happened, but I want his agent. Jakovic is a sometime starter for one of the worst NTs in the world. Kyle Porter gets games for them.

    These are just stats you say? The anecdotal evidence is even more damning, and I'll type that up later today.
     
  5. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    Its hard to defend by yourself. ..
     
  6. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good effort, benni!
    The point still stands: Jakovic and White had the same production on the same team under the same circumstances.
     
  7. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    That's stats would tell you that both players are comparable, but we can both see that Ethan white currently isn't a very effective defender. The potential is only in his athleticism.
     
  8. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    4/21 home against Philly (3-2 loss)
    -Jakovic presses forward and tries a pass through the center circle. That pass is intercepted by Carroll, touched to Casey who plays it through to McInerney in the space vacated by Jakovic's forward venture. After Jakovic and McDonald play the Benny Hill theme running around McInerney, he scores for the 1-0 lead in the 7th minute.

    5/8 home against Houston (4-0 loss)
    -Jakovic steps to intercept a pass to Bruin, instead completely whiffs and sends Bruin in alone. 1-0 Houston in the 16th minute.
    -In the 28th minute, Jakovic decides it's a good move to pass the ball to his keeper on his own goal line when under pressure rather than play it out wide. Hamid botches the clearance right to Bruin who squares to Barnes for the tap in, 2-0.

    5/11 at Dallas (2-1 loss)
    -Jakovic steps to deny a pass to Hassli and falls down with barely a nudge, who finds Jackson for the opener in the 11th minute.

    8/17 at Montreal (2-1 loss)
    -Jakovic is one on one against DiVaio. Even though DiVaio is drifting wide and left, Jakovic overplays and allows him to cut back to his favored right foot where he scores the game winner in the 83rd minute. This two minutes after Doyle gloriously ties the game in the 81st.

    8/24 home against Toronto (1-1)
    -In the 60th minute, Jakovic tries a cheeky back heel out of his own penalty box. Turnover, square pass, tying goal from Convey.

    9/14 home against LA (2-2)
    -Jakovic attempts a pass out the back to Chris Pontius who is running back towards his own goal under pressure. Pontius deals with it poorly, the ball is turned over and sent to Keane, who jukes Jakovic to the seat of his pants and scores, 1-0. In the 7th minute.

    I didn't mention times where he was just plain beaten, because that's what happens to defenders. There were plenty of these moments for both Jakovic and White, and I have those chronicled as well. No, these are instances of bad decision making of the brain cramp variety that a center back just can't do. And the timing is so killer. 7th minute, 16th, 11th, 7th. For a team that was struggling so hard scoring, this was back breaking, beating the team before they even started. Then you have the demoralizing late winner to DiVaio and completely unnecessary back heel leading to the tying goal against Toronto. It adds up to a player who can't be trusted.
     
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  9. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's as effective as Jakovic for a third the cap hit, that's my only point. Also, he won't kill you with stupidity. Saying the potential is only in his athleticism is based on absolutely nothing as far as I can tell.

    I agree with you, if White's a starter it's problematic. But for anyone who says losing Jakovic is the problem, I vehemently disagree, it is absolutely addition by subtraction.
     
  10. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    If you could go back, would you cut jakovic sooner, and play white more?
     
  11. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, a thousand times yes!

    I think people get mesmerized by his ball handling and great wheels, but at the heart of it is a lousy center back. Not all the time, no, sometimes he's really good, but that's a terrible quality in a center back.
     
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  12. Hedbal

    Hedbal Member+

    Jul 31, 2000
    DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think the team has stopped dealing yet. Heath Pearce was paid more than Jacovic in 2013, but he is only a year older and out of contract. (I don't think he was picked up in the re-entry draft.) Assuming he is fully recovered from his hip surgery, invite him to camp and, if he performs, offer him a cut-rate salary for 2014. He could take care of the left fullback position, but can also play in the center. And ex-United defender/midfielder Brandon Barklage should come cheap. He started a number of games for the Heifers. And so on....
     
  13. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    I disagree. I think, as a starting CB in MLS, he's mediocre, there are more CBs who are better than him than there are that are worse. Soccer America's positional rankings did not rate him, even though it should theoretically be easier for CBs because SA creates a semi-arbitrary distinction between left and right CBs. (Last year they had a combined list, and ranked Jakovic the 14th best starter.)

    I think a major part of our disagreement is that I see the bolded shortcomings, which we agree on, as the most important part of the job. Now, personally I only think he's reasonably 'technical', obviously moreso than someone like MacDonald (ie we've been comparing him to someone who is very not technical), but less than a Michael Parkhurst or a Tim Ream were in this league, and probably less than a Besler is now. But be that as it may or may not, after a certain number of mistakes it doesn't matter how technical you are (just ask Ream's NT career).

    Right, and as I say, if you assume we're just going to sit on the allocation and cap money, then your position makes sense. I would tend to assume we'll probably work a trade within the league for (or draft) another mediocre CB who is probably also overpaid (unless he's the draft pick), but probably less so than Jakovic was. We'll have the same level CB for at least slightly less money.

    If we're really looking for dominant, which Jakovic was obviously not, then we should be looking for an international signing, but sadly, I'm not too optimistic we'll be doing that, or that our efforts would bear out if we did. We do now have the money for it though. We have the money for Jamison Olave with spare change.
     
  14. nick

    nick Member+

    Nov 23, 1998
    Potomac Falls, Va
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Soccer or Football has never been a game about stats. They can be helpful and they can be entirely misleading depending on what your trying to analyze. If you really think that White and Jakovic are comparable players then, I don't know what to tell you other than to say we are not going to agree in a month of Sundays.

    As to your anecdotal evidence I could point out that according to your information Jakovic made 7 mistakes during a 34 game season that led to goals. This was on a team that let in 59. What I saw this last season was a superior player who was run ragged by the massive breakdowns that occurred all around him.
     
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  15. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, you're right, we won't agree. Jakovic at his best is a better defender than White, we agree on that. Jakovic at his worst is a game killer, that's where we won't agree, and I don't want that in a center back. Never mind that he's never played more than 23 games in a season and gets paid 3 times that of White. The mistakes he makes piss me off a lot more than you, so that's on me. I can accept it from a young player, but not a vet. McDonald was also a train wreck and now he's out of the league. Jakovic was only a little better and he should be a sure starter on a mega salary? I can't get behind that.
     
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  16. GumbyG

    GumbyG Member+

    DC United
    Mar 22, 2007
    Chesapeake, VA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If he could stay healthy, he might end up justifying his wage. As it is he's a streaky player. When he's on, he's one of the best centerbacks in the league, and that's pretty high praise. But he isn't the kind of player that can be on when the players on either side of him are of lower quality and are constantly changing. He needs consistency. Throw in injuries, and he had no chance to develop a rhythm in 2013. 2014 would have looked a little better, at least in the quality and type of players he's on the pitch with. But the injury questions and a constant rotation because of fixture congestion could still pose problems. For that reason I'm ambivalent. At a lower salary, he's a keeper - the upside of an in-form Deki is big, and possible to realize with our 2014 roster. But we've spent a lot of money gambling on him and it hasn't really paid off. Cutting bait now isn't a move I can criticize, even though I would have thought twice about it. On the upside, since it is a sort of 50/50 proposition, it's probably proactive rather than reactive, which is a good sign for the fans.
     
  17. gremio1903

    gremio1903 Member+

    Aug 10, 2011
    Uruguaiana, RS (BRA) [last: Rockville, MD]
    Club:
    Gremio Porto Alegre
    The biggest problem is that he was being overpaid. I would not mind him in the roster, if his wage was, let's say, more just. It was a great move to release him to Japan (and not to another MLS club).
     
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  18. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

    Jun 7, 2000
    Baltimore
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Gibraltar
    There's no point in discussing Jakovic any more. The real worry is the current state of our center defense. I think we've gotten better in many parts of the field, but not this ...

    I think people will be in for a surprise regarding Boswell. I think he's a downgrade from Jakovic. There are multiple ways to expose Boswell these days including speed and high pressure ... although he is reliable in the air which is a relief. White will still be White and there's really nothing much behind him. Even if the braintrust is angling for a major center back signing, it better be a home run or else we're in trouble.

    Of course Franklin is a massive help on the right and our central midfield is stronger which should hopefully relieve some of the pressure off the central defense so in the end it could still work ... but I'm skeptical for now
     
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  19. DCUSA

    DCUSA Member+

    Jan 14, 2006
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No way is that back line good enough, imo. Put Jakovic in it, and it's no better, but yeah, they can't go into the season as is. Another starter at CB is needed, minimum.
     
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  20. GumbyG

    GumbyG Member+

    DC United
    Mar 22, 2007
    Chesapeake, VA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Significantly better than last year, but ya, White and Attakora would ideally be depth. We do need a starting quailty CB. Minimally, we need someone to seriously challenge for the left back position - I assume at this point the starter there will be Korb. I class him with White and Attakora. They should get significant minutes, but they shouldn't be the best players on the team given their skill level.

    The back positions worry me more, because Korb is probably second at right back, and at left back, then... It's a question of if you want a defender who can't run the wing or a winger who can't defend. And Korb can't play every game this season.
     
  21. shammypants

    shammypants Member+

    Oct 9, 2013
    Club:
    DC United
    To me, I will accept criticisms of Jakovic if you will be as vitriolic toward Kitchen and Pontius. There is literally no defense for those two given the same structure of the argument used against Jakovic.
     
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  22. Heist

    Heist Member+

    Jun 15, 2001
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How did Kitchen get roped into this discussion? Pontius I understand. He's been tremendously disappointing since his injury. Who knows if he'll get back to his old ways. We can only hope he will. We need him to if we want to be any good this year.
    Still, CB is a major major issue for us. I'm okay with the Jakovic sale provided we either draft someone we think is legitimately ready to be a starter by the end of the year or sign someone with the money/cap space from Jakovic's sale.
     
  23. song219

    song219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 5, 2004
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Vanuatu
    You do know we are talking about DC United? Sometimes I'll reply to a post without knowing what forum it is in. This must have happened to you. ;)
     
  24. Heist

    Heist Member+

    Jun 15, 2001
    Virginia
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've done that too a few times. That did not happen here however. :)
    We've proven able to draft/trade/homegrow (yes, I'm making up that word) adequately I think. Its the overseas acquisitions that kill us. We've wasted so much on those acquisitions in recent years as well as often in the re-entry draft (although I like Espindola if we're able to sign him and Arnaud and Franklin). Our decisions to re-sign players have bothered me in the past, but I can't think of anyone that I'm upset that we re-signed this year. I know if looked at the roster I could probably find some, but it may be crazy because we're so used to sucking so much the past few years. I actually think the FO should get a tentative good grade for this offseason given the huge need we had coming in. Quite a few moves should remain including the draft and hopefully leaving space for a move in the summer.
     
  25. shammypants

    shammypants Member+

    Oct 9, 2013
    Club:
    DC United
    Why Kitchen? Well, Kitchen is fine, but he puts in an own-goal now and again; loses defenders and gives up goals; provides nothing on offense (not that he has to necessarily given his role, but still); fails to link up with players when moving the ball up field; loses possession at critical junctures; disappears for entire games etc. There is a reason Kitchen hasn't been called up to the National Team- he's just 'fine.' Clyde Simms was also 'fine,' honestly. Kitchen is also (similarly to Jakovic) prone to playing poorly when those around him are playing poorly. In 2012 when we were 'on it' Kitchen was a stud. So was Jakovic. When we were sucking for long periods of time, he was Mr. Milquetoast.

    I'm just saying that no one is really exempt from scrutiny on this team and no one is really a 'must keep.' In some cases you can't really throw out the baby with the bathwater though, and you have to at least presumably have a core to work with. Right now, with Jakovic out, our core is Pontius, Kitchen and DeLeon and perhaps Johnson (but as a National Teamer we can expect him to play only 25 of 34 games at most really but closer to 22). Everyone else is touch and go with no real certainty they will start. However, you have to ask, with so few core players, is there really a core at all? I think we want to believe so, with the so-called youth movement, but we're not likely to start the youth (Doyle, Jeffreys, Martins etc.), so maybe there isn't actually a core at all.
     

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