Do You Think MLS Will Ever Pass One Of The Big 3 American Sports?

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by jquintero10, Jan 14, 2012.

  1. HunterX

    HunterX Red Card

    Aug 24, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    Kutsuit,

    ur wrong about Japan. Ever since they reformed their leagues and went to a league system with promotion and the 100 year plan, the popularity has soared. It's probably now the #2 sport and will eventually pass baseball. I would say within the next 10 years it would pass baseball.
     
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  2. Kutsuit

    Kutsuit Member

    Mar 2, 2011
    Kuwait City
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Kuwait
    That's all fine if the MLS is happy with its current status and not planning to break the dominance of the bigger US sports leagues. But there are many other reasons why growing into the global market is important. I've already listed them in my previous reply.

    That wasn't the point HailtotheKing was making. Ligue 1 attracts a higher average attendance than Major League Soccer as well. HailtotheKing was talking about the total number of fans attending the MLS, per season. In that regard, what I said about the Sky Bet Championship was correct.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Premier League generate most of its TV revenues from international audiences? In any case, the foreign element in the Premier League is huge. Places such as Manchester became tourist destinations thanks to clubs like Manchester United. It led to the coining of whole new terms, such as "football tourism".

    Liverpool didn't really gain most of its foreign fans because of the 1970s or 80s. I think the 2005 Champions League played a huge role in increasing Liverpool's popularity among the foreign Premier League viewers. The club have also marketed themselves very well in recent years, especially in terms of merchandising.

    LOL, you'll have to trust me on this. The QSL offers a better quality of soccer than the MLS. I know it doesn't sound right but you'll have to see it for yourself.

    Eh, that wasn't the point I was making about the influence that important sports leagues have.

    You've got a very good point about the timing issues. I guess the European leagues have the geographic advantage, which puts them in a better position to market their leagues internationally. I would suggest that the MLS should compete with the North and Central American markets first. If the MLS can attract the attention of fans from Mexico and the Central American countries, that will be a good start.

    With regard to the feasibility of foreign investment in the MLS, I think NYC FC is a step in the right direction. If the new team can kick off properly, it can help bring the MLS better TV deals, for one thing. With more US sports fans becoming interested, it will attract the attention of many foreign investors to copy the model.

    That's just hypothetical. The MLS will not only have to compete with the four bigger leagues, but it will also have to look over its shoulders and make sure no other league is catching up with it. After all, the market is becoming more saturated as time goes by. Competition will get harder for the MLS as well as the other leagues.
     
  3. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Yes, and I agree that taking over in average attendance is nowhere near enough, but your fixation of overseas tv cash is just pointless. No sports league in the world has ever succeeded via that route.

    No it doesn't.

    MLS is about 500 higher per game.

    No he wasn't, as MLS plays fewer games

    No, it was completely wrong.

    I have corrected you because you were wrong. Twice.

    So how do you explain their massive following before 2005. Or the fact that Chelsea still aren't close?

    You seem to be making assumptions and treating them as facts.

    Qatari players are crap. The Qatar team is consequently much worse than the USA team as a result. Who are the best foreign players in the Qatar league?

    so what is this influence the premier league has, that's far more than any other league?
     
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  4. Kutsuit

    Kutsuit Member

    Mar 2, 2011
    Kuwait City
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Kuwait
    #1104 Kutsuit, Aug 25, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2013
    Point me to where I've fixated on overseas TV money in specific. I emphasized the importance of having a global outreach if the MLS was serious about breaking the dominance of the big four US leagues. That's not a fixation on overseas TV money. Branding, merchandising, sports tourism and other factors are among the components of having a global outreach as well. And again, as I stated over a million times already, this is something that is important if the MLS wants to gain the financial status and popularity of bigger leagues in the US and around the World.

    Care to provide a link to where you're getting all your stats from?

    This is where I got my information from:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues

    Some of the figures there haven't been updated in a year but, based on these figures, the total attendance of the Sky Bet Championship was higher than Major League Soccer and Ligue 1.

    Anyway, he didn't even specify if he was talking about average or total attendances, but I assumed the latter because I thought Major League Soccer succeeded in drawing a higher total attendance figure than Ligue 1.

    Anyway, proving me wrong twice on petty statistics is pointless to begin with. It reaffirms my point that using trivial stats such as average attendance figures and the likes are just ways of scoring minor victories while ignoring the real issues the league has to deal with.

    You're pot calling the kettle black. You're also assuming that most foreign Liverpool fans support the club because of historical reasons. In reality it could be a combination of reasons. There's the cup success that Liverpool had, the marketing and global outreach the club invested in during the second decade of the Premier League's history, etc. The point is, you're also treating your assumptions as though they are facts.

    Call the Qatari players crap all you want, but have you ever watched a QSL game? At least if you want to judge a league, watch it for yourself first.

    The QSL is ahead of the MLS in quality, in my opinion. The football is more easy on the eye, it's on a higher level than what you find at the MLS.

    For one thing, the Premier League forced through the implementation of goal-line technology. The Premier League led the way for the introduction of goal-line technology for many years, and it's only under that amount of pressure that FIFA finally succumbed to the idea and accepted it. The initiative came from the Premier League.

    That is very similar to the NBA's way of influencing FIBA, in its entirety, to comply with NBA game rules and ditch the old European set of rules.
     
  5. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I haven't watched the league, but I've seen the Qatari national team over about half a dozen full matches. They have a few good players, but no depth whatsoever. All the players have decent touch, but they don't have 10 outfield players who can think quickly enough under pressure for the international game.

    The football being "more easy on the eye" than MLS may be because it's played at a much slower pace. This is especially true because of the climate. (I grew up in Dubai, so I learned to play in exactly the same climate.) Players all look better when they have time and space on the ball. Most leagues have more attractive football than the EPL, but that doesn't make them better.
     
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  6. Kutsuit

    Kutsuit Member

    Mar 2, 2011
    Kuwait City
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Kuwait
    #1106 Kutsuit, Aug 25, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2013
    You contradicted yourself, period. Just admit it and move on. ;)

    The way I see it, you simply lost the plot and are now doing the Wenger. :laugh:

    I swear you're beginning to sound like a broken record. Nice job searching on Google for the J-League revenues by the way. I'm sure you're now suddenly the expert on Japanese football. So now revenues matter more than profits, but in your other posts it was the profit that mattered most. I'll reserve my judgement of football in Japan and trust what the Japanese have to say about it themselves. In the meantime, football is nowhere to be seen in the Japanese media, newspapers and major TV channels -- according to what I've been told by Japanese football fans. Japan is still a one-sport nation, where baseball towers over everything else.

    What on Earth is a "Brito-shaded" view and bias? If you mean I'm Anglocentric, then you haven't really read my previous replies properly. There's no way any sane person would read my previous comments in this thread and think I'm Anglocentric in any shape or form-- not after holding views about my discontent of the way European sports leagues, including the EPL, are being run. This just proves you're trying to look for an argument that's not there.

    Brito-shaded, ROFL.

    And in 2010, Wolfsburg were so happy they removed him from their wage books.

    I didn't think you were bright enough to know what I was talking about, so let me explain it to you. First, you come out and say a soccer league can realistically take the 4th spot in terms of US sports league popularity. You then say it hasn't happened sooner because the MLS is disadvantaged by its lack of history. But here you are thinking it's so achievable to snatch the 4th place from the likes of the NHL, ignoring the sheer size of history they have and how it contradicts your excuse for why the MLS is still where it is today.

    I offered my opinions, which I'm entitled to. Now you're trying to mix things around in order to come off as a more sensible person. The fact is, I never slated you for not liking my skepticism. On the other hand, your isolationism is evident by the fact you publicly stated your rejection of all skeptics who wrote about the MLS. You went further than that by saying they were a bunch of desk jockeys and/or foreigners.

    And why is it hard for you to understand that I mentioned foreign markets as a method of allowing the MLS to grow larger than its current ambitions? This is, after all, the entire purpose of this thread.

    Oh I wouldn't be so sure just yet. If the rumors of the NFL helping to start a pro Rugby competition in the US turn out to be true, the MLS better feel threatened in the coming years. Not feeling threatened would be a mistake.

    You didn't shoot anything down but yourself. That's an own goal. You provided foreign sales figures of the MLB and NHL that made the MLS look like a backyard league. You might think 5% isn't big, but that's your problem.

    Really, without an English team trying to give the MLS a kick up its rear end, I just cant see the MLS getting better TV deals. The only problem is, how long will that float the MLS in the US market? Should anything go wrong with the EPL, financially, that would ruin everything even the MLS were hoping for.

    I was watching New England spank Philadelphia 5-1 and couldn't help but notice the American commentators turning into human adverts while they were supposed to do their job of providing commentary for the game. It goes back to something I touched upon before... The major TV networks in the US will never embrace soccer until it Americanizes to the point there are four quarters, timeouts and just about every opportunity to go to commercial breaks.

    It's quite clear you've been involved in a lot of America versus Europe arguments, which is why your head is now geared to think this way on every given occasion. Sadly, you're not looking at things properly. It's also irrelevant to the entire premise of this thread. And quite frankly, the only significant influence there is on American soccer today is the NCAA. And until the NCAA improves the development of soccer, I guess the MLS will find it difficult to grow.

    Our leagues around here do not date back to the "medieval" times either, but we don't use that as an excuse for terrible football. The standard of football in the US is terrible beyond logic. It's not about being more physical. There are many English teams that are physical, but at least they can string passes together properly and can still play entertaining football.

    Remember, it's no bragging right. The MLS can choose to become just another statistic, albeit more sustainable than other leagues around the World. Eventually it'll go stale. But this thread was about breaking big, which will never happen unless the league grows to a great extent. With that comes the risk of things going wrong too, and that's where the MLS needs to be wise and diversify its business in order to survive the harsh and unforgiving economic environment of the US and the World for that matter.
     
  7. Jewelz510

    Jewelz510 Member+

    Feb 19, 2011
    Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What is this? A Euro fan who's less educated about world soccer than American fans are? NOW I've seen everything.
     
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  8. HunterX

    HunterX Red Card

    Aug 24, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    MLS has the potential to surpass the NHL. There are certainly more soccer fans in the US than their are ice hockey fans. The problem is that MLS doesn't get enough American soccer fans to watch the league. While if you are a ice hockey fan in the US then the NHL is your league.

    I would bet that not even half the soccer fans in the US are watchers of MLS. Just going by the ratings of MLS Cup it wouldn't be too crazy to suggest that right now MLS gets no more than 20% of the soccer fans in this country to tune in.
     
  9. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    So you think MLS can make a fortune globally through merchandising, sponsorship, sports tourism etc, without being popular enough to merit good tv deals?

    You've talked about how global appeal being what made leagues strong, yet this is completely wrong. All, without exception, got strong on domestic income. The global revenue came later. You've also consistently grossly over-estimated the amount of global income even top leagues make, seemingly because you've made assumptions and haven't bothered checking them out.

    Just how much % of revenue do you actually think the NHL, NBA and MLB make? Yes, you can watch live MLB in England, but the games will only attract about 5000 people, and the tv deal will reflect that. Being watched in 200 countries does not reflect an avid worldwide viewership. It reflects the fact that there are a lot of sports channels out there with space to fill.

    total attendance, yes, because they play far more games - 552 compared to 380.

    Even the very link you quote shows Ligue 1 has a higher average.

    MLS plays fewer games.

    A smarter argument would have been to point out that despite a higher average for MLS, the NHL's average total matchday revenues blow MLS out of the water. They play far more games and charge far more to get in, so catching up in average crowds does not remotely hint at caching up.

    I didn't prove you wrong, twice, on "petty statistics".

    I proved you wrong on your belief that top leagues make most of their money (and indeed only grew) because of overseas money. Given that you whole point seems to be that overseas money is vital and you can't succeed without it, it's not exactly "petty".

    It could be, but it's not. They've been popular for a very long time, not just since 2005. Anyone who's been following the game for more than 20 minutes would know that. It's why they are massively more popular than even Arsenal and Chelsea, who've had far more success in the premier league era, and also aggressively tried to market themselves abroad.

    It's packed full of Qatari players, who are crap. The Qatar national team is crap, and the league is packed full of players who are nowhere near good enough to get into that crap team. Being "easy on the eye" does not equate to quality. I've seen football in the Belgian 4th division that was easy on the eye, but they'd still be completely outclassed by ugliest of English lower division pragmatic teams.

    So you think English influence on the rules is a new thing?
     
  10. NMMatt

    NMMatt Member+

    Apr 5, 2006
    The major difference is the NHL is the best hockey league in the world and attracts top talent from around the world.

    NHL tends to be a low level sport in much of the US, but it is the by far the most important sport in Canada and to some extent many northern US states whose fans are much more committed and passionate about their teams than most NFL and NBA fans. It's probably more regional in its distribution of popularity than NASCAR.

    MLS does have more potential I would think. The NHL is probably maxed out in its appeal, unless it can attract more fans to the game itself in regions where you can't just go out on a lake 6 months out of the year and play a bit of pick up hockey. If I'm not mistaken, they did make some gains in the 90's when the trend was for teams to relocate south, but they probably have stagnated or even regressed a bit since then.
     
  11. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Uh, no.

    I've asked TWICE (now three times) what I contradicted, and exactly how I was contradictory ... you've yet to show your work.

    "The way I see it ..."

    That's usually what's said when your teeth get kicked down your throat.

    I'm well more aware of the J-League than you are, I'm pretty sure of it. Speaking of losing the plot, that explains why you think I'm shifting from revenues to profits. Not the case. I'm using points to combat your ever changing accusations. The discussion has moved at certain points because when you get derailed by facts, you try to tweak things and hope we aren't noticing.

    I've said it a few times, but it really does hold true. You really need to actually educate yourself on what's going on in the world of sport if you want to hold a conversation about it. Baseball in Japan is still highly popular, but it is getting its throat punched from several directions. MLB is killing the Nippon League over there, and the surge in popularity of soccer is eating away as well. Baseball is not on the golden perch you think it is anymore.

    Hence, Brito-shaded. I posted exactly what I meant. Everything you've posted has been Brito-shaded and biased. Perhaps remembering your comments and what you originally were saying about things here would do you good.

    And even more recent than that Levante couldn't hold on too him ..

    See, this is called hook - line - and sinker.

    Speaking of not being bright, you weren't bright enough to see that you were set up and slapped down. You stated that history essentially meant nothing in all of this. Yet, here you are posturing the NHL's history against a point I made (and then set you up on).

    So which is it ?

    I'm not pretending anything doesn't exist. I am though (unlike yourself) aware of things. Things such as the fact that the NHL's history is the only real thing holding it up above any league below it here in the States. Even with their already lofty positions the other 3 big sports are growing pretty well. The NHL hasn't even fully recovered from the last few years, let alone started more growth. It is the most compartmentalized of the big 4 sports and has the smallest domestic reach. There is and always will be portions of this country that have built in preventative measures in terms of giving a shit about a game played on ice. The other three big sports (and soccer) don't face these issues. It realistically can achieve 4th because of what sport is in 4th. It has the lowest ceiling of all of the sports in this country and any momentum it had to break through it was killed with the last round of bullshit.

    See, you're trying to whitewash again. I never once stated that ALL skeptics ... not once. You though, took my public calling out of the majority of outspoken people about the MLS/American soccer for what they were ... as what you wanted to hear.

    Yeah, most of the vocal ones are desk jockeys or foreign. There are very few people within US domestic soccer (ie - people that understand both the game and the culture of US sports) that share any views of these people and people like you. I stated a fact.

    It's hardly isolationism. You simply do not know the facts and nature of things here, period ... full stop. It isn't isolationism to point that out too you and to comment on/state the things you're either ignorant of or oblivious too.

    Except that wasn't the approach you brought ... at all, and you know it. You came in here stating that the league NEEDED to do that and that it was pretty much one of the most important things in the here and now.

    That simply isn't true. There are a myriad of other things to take care of before the foreign invasion can begin.

    The NASL is much more of a threat to the MLS than any imaginary rugby league ... and it ain't close.

    *sigh*

    You don't even remember what you were saying on that topic. No wonder you suck at this. It has nothing to do with the 5% being a giant number in terms of the MLS. It has to do with you trying to paint those leagues as having this huge foreign part and infiltration and how they built their status by going the foreign market route (to try and backup your claim for what the MLS needs to do) ... when in fact that isn't the case, at all. Not one bit.

    It's for a different discussion but I think that the EPL (or Serie A or La Liga) going bust would be the best thing for the world of soccer ...

    ... however, NYCFC represents several things that will only help the league (and thus the TV deals).

    Except for the part where they've moved completely away from Americanizing the game. Sure. It's funny though that you say this, when soccer itself is a walking "Americanziation" of a sport in terms of adverts and selling out. Adboards surrounding the field ? Shirt sponsors ? Exclusive kit makers ? 3D advert paint on the end lines ? ... but yes, we Americans are about whoring out the game.

    I'm looking at things truthfully and realistically ... so sorry that for you that's not "proper."

    The last thing you should ever do, is accuse someone of not looking at something properly when you believe that the only significant influence on American soccer ... is the freaking NCAA. If there was ever a proving statement for "doesn't know what the blue shit they're talking about" ... that's it.

    No, but the development of the game has been consistent and at the forefront of the sporting world for at minimum, 40 years longer than here. Some places even have over a century on us. The standard of football in the US is nowhere near as bad as you are trying to paint it. I mean you want to talk to me about how I'm geared to think, and then spit out stupid shit like that ? Funny doesn't even begin to describe it. Yes, the US leans on physicality because it lacks the refinement and technical ability. That's a rule of sports in general. If you aren't as sound in most other parts of the game, you out muscle the other other guy. It's a pretty simple concept and one we're in the process of outgrowing.

    You really should actually watch some of these English football teams you're talking about. Some of them flat out stink.
     
  12. HunterX

    HunterX Red Card

    Aug 24, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    Soccer is different from other sports because unlike the NHL, MLB, NFL, and NBA, soccer has multiple soccer leagues around the world for the best players to sign with. That's why it works for the NFL, NHL, and NBA to have all the regulations(player movement, drafts etc) and salary restrictions that they do. Where else are the top players going to go?

    MLS's biggest problem when getting an audience is that its not a top league. This is what prevents the casual fan from tuning in. Then it has other problems which push away potential fans such as the more Americanized format of drafts, salary caps, conferences, playoffs etc. This might have worked before globalization and when a domestic league was more insular and not in competition with other leagues. But not today. I think most soccer fans in this country want to see their league get in line with Europe. That last line is probably going to piss some people off but I think its true.
     
  13. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Drafts and salary caps push away fans? You could say that not have enough top talent does that (and hurts the quality), but what do those things have to do with a fan choosing what game to watch?
     
  14. HunterX

    HunterX Red Card

    Aug 24, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    The salary cap lowers quality. The existence of the MLS Draft gives long time soccer fans the impression that MLS doesn't get it.
     
  15. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    which in turn gives us the impression that they don't get American sporting culture.
     
  16. HunterX

    HunterX Red Card

    Aug 24, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    There is no definitive American sporting culture. There are different cultures that are tied to different sports. Baseball culture is not the same as NFL football culture. Even college football culture (with its bowl games and its method of crowning a national champion) differs from NFL football culture. The NBA, the NHL, golf, tennis - all these sports have different cultures. One thing that MLB, NBA, NHL, and the NFL have in common is that they are part of what economist Robert Frank calls "The Winner take all Society." In each of these sports there is only one competition and one winner. Second place is for losers. Their regular seasons are preludes to crowning the one and only true champion.

    This is not the same as soccer culture in America. With soccer culture there are multiple titles to be won. With soccer culture a team from MLS competes against a team in NASL or USL to win the US Open Cup. Likewise a team in MLS competes against CONCACAF teams for the right to call themselves Champions of CONCACAF. Soccer is not part of this "Winnter take all Society." Instead, soccer teams have multiple chances to raise significant trophies.

    Drafts exist in America's "winner take all" because they are the primary way to promote competitive balance. In the MLB,NFL and NBA you build your teams from the draft. This is probably most evident in the NFL where your chances of reaching a Super Bowl rests on how well you are able to draft.

    But soccer is different. MLS clubs have their own academies where they train their own players. The big four don't have this, which is another example in how soccer culture is different. Allocating amateur players into the league is not a primary way to promote balance, otherwise the academy system would not have been implemented. The MLS draft seems to exist as a vestige of the per-academy days when the league wanted both the exposure of highlighting its top draft picks, and a simple way to allocate top amateurs into the league(coincidentally, the MLS draft hasn't been shown on TV in years) . To say its no longer needed would be a massive understatement. And I didn't even get into how unfair it is to the players.
     
  17. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Nov 18, 2008
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Shhhhh, there is only one way to correct way to do soccer ever. That ways is the 1 world way (English way, no other country matters).
     
  18. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Nov 18, 2008
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Call me crazy, but you might call that "American Sports Culture."

    Trophies that MLS teams have won time and time again (bar the one time) since 1996. Only twice has a team from outside of MLS made the final.

    Drafts still exits in MLS to promote competitive balance. The teams aren't all training their own players.

    Last year was the first time the MLS SuperDraft had not been on broadcast TV. In 2012 the first round was on EPSN2.
     
  19. HunterX

    HunterX Red Card

    Aug 24, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    instead of splicing my post so that your response is just incoherent snippets why not try making an argument?
    Soccer culture is not the same as NFL culture and not the same as College Football culture. I provided evidence for that. In the NFL the draft is the primary method for implementing competitive balance. Not the case in MLS. As far as I can tell, the MLS draft exists just because other sports do it that way.
     
  20. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then be honest and say you don't think it's a quality product. That's what turns you off -- not the salary cap itself.

    And the draft is the allocation of 38 men over 19 teams, most of whom will only get token minutes in their first year. Why do fans who aren't interested in the league *really* care about the allocation of a handful of entry level players?

    It's like saying you don't like MLS because they use W-L-T rather than W-T-L.
     
  21. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To me this is kind of annoying, but I have learned to live with it.
     
  22. Kutsuit

    Kutsuit Member

    Mar 2, 2011
    Kuwait City
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Kuwait
    What is it with you and my throat? I really don't want anything kicked down my throat, thank you very much. :x3:

    Tell that to the Japanese people who actually live there. See, this is another example of you trying to argue for the sake of argument. If you want to accuse me of not understanding America's sporting culture, then you might as well be consistent and admit that you don't have a clue about what constitutes Japan's sporting culture. Soccer is hardly mentioned in the media, newspapers and major TV channels over there -- according to what I've been told. Japan is a one-sport country for all intents and purposes, and has been that way for quite a long time. Baseball will always tower over soccer, so for you to have used "soccer is the second most followed sport in Japan" as an argument was no bragging right by any means. That's like saying basketball is the second most followed sport in Saudi Arabia, which means nothing in the grand scheme of things because these countries' sporting cultures are all about following one major sport and leaving the rest to play second fiddle.

    I didn't shift from revenues to profits; I was merely pointing out where you began to contradict yourself (even further). If anything, it showed your desperation to come off looking like an expert in something you're so disconnected from, which probably explains why you searched on Google for the J-League's annual revenues. It also showed that you began using any statistic you can find to build your argument, even though you previously stated the importance of profits over revenues. So you basically shot down your own consistency and did exactly what you accused me of doing in the previous page; that is, you accused me of not educating myself about America's sporting culture, but then you tried to come off looking like someone who's educated about Japanese soccer.

    So what's more important, the profit or total revenue generated by a sports league? You have to be consistent. In the last page, profit mattered to you most. But after your Google search on the J-League's finances, you started talking about the league's annual revenue like it's the best thing since sliced bread.

    Therefore, don't be so sure of what you're talking about. No offense but you're being too arrogant for your own good. Let's just put this to rest. :)

    Again, what was so "Brito-shaded" about what I said? You're clearly trolling me now. :laugh:

    No, you made the historical argument significant. Good grief, are you really like this or just pretending? :giggle:

    In your previous comments, you implied that history is important in defining the significance/status of a sports league, which you then went on to use an excuse for why the MLS wasn't able to overtake the NHL's financial and popular position by now. That's where I pointed out how contradictory your statement about breaking into the "big four" was, because if history is an important factor then the MLS would never break the big four dominance, but you originally argued that it could.

    That's where you contradicted yourself. How can you not see this? :confused:

    I'm sure you can be bright if you want to, but you're not thinking straight in this conversation. Maybe if you just calm down a little bit...

    You know the premise of this thread, so let's not pretend we came here to discuss whether or not the MLS can survive as a league. Even the Maltese football league can survive, let alone the MLS, unless the organizers put a combined deliberate effort in killing it. The discussion was always about breaking into the big four sports league dominion. The MLS couldn't do that unless the major TV networks in the United States embrace the sport. And I don't think they'll ever embrace the sport unless they were forced to. What better way to force the TV networks to sign better contract deals with the MLS than to invite foreign interest/investment? That's one of the reasons why the MLS encouraged Manchester City to start a football club in New York.

    American TV networks care about making as much money as possible. Everyone knows that a game of American football or basketball would generate more revenue for the networks than a game of soccer, and that's because of the abundant number of commercial breaks that will occur with the former sports than with the latter. I'm sure that's also the case with baseball and hockey games, albeit to a lesser extent because hockey doesn't have as many stoppages as the other big four American sports (although it still has more stoppages than soccer).

    You might think I don't know anything about America's sporting culture, but I do. I know enough to tell that the tastes of most US sports fans are dictated by what the media shows them. As long as the big businesses keep on promoting the big four sports leagues at the expense of the MLS, the US viewers would always be more likely to embrace the aforementioned sports than soccer. It's unfortunate but it's just the way things are. It's like every other product/service in the market. Therefore, if soccer wants to force itself to the top of the pyramid, or somewhere near the top, then it has to look into other markets to gain following. As soon as the major networks realize how much money is at stake with the MLS, they'll be happy to drop one of the other leagues. Until then, the MLS will always be disadvantaged because the system is built against it.

    I already said in the last page, by using the NFL as an example, that the big four leagues built their way up because of mainly local reasons, but that the foreign interest would help maintain them. Moreover, that was a different era. The MLS needs to force its way up and there's no better way than attracting foreign interest. It's also wise for the MLS to diversify its business anyway, so the organizers would be killing two birds with one stone as well.

    I agree. Hopefully FIFA follows them. :p

    Enlighten me, then. I always thought the most important thing in developing any American sport is the college level. I cant imagine what the NBA and NFL would be like without the NCAA. I personally think if the NCAA cares a bit more about soccer and complies with the MLS laws and regulations, it can really help develop the sport across the country.

    With regard to your final point, the biggest problem I find with the MLS players is that many of them cant seem to string a few good passes together. It's a basic skill that they should all have at this level. Anyway, you can always disagree with my views on the quality of US soccer, but it remains far less impressive than many leagues around the World, including Middle Eastern leagues.

    PS: Please leave my throat alone.
     
  23. bklyn

    bklyn New Member

    Aug 5, 2013
    I see no reason to compare MLS to our other domestic leagues. I mean hell the EPL's revenue was equal to the NHL, who was coming off another lock out, yet still did as well as the most recognized soccer league in the world.

    However, it's encouraging we are similar in average attendance to both Ligue 1 and Serie A.

    Imo in the future MLS will be similar to the MLB in attendance numbers, due to similar pricing and capacity. It really isn't fair or reasonable to compare avg attendance to the NBA or the NHL due to their limitations.
     
  24. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Nov 18, 2008
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm sorry that your reading comprehension isn't good enough that you can't follow along.

    I've posted on this time and time again. I'm tired of reading your incoherent babbling about how there is only one correct way to run a soccer league.
     
  25. Kutsuit

    Kutsuit Member

    Mar 2, 2011
    Kuwait City
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Kuwait
    #1125 Kutsuit, Aug 29, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
    I already answered most of your points in my previous reply to Hailtotheking, but I will reiterate that the other US sports leagues grew (to become what they are today) in a different era. For these major leagues, it is now all about maintaining their statuses, which is helped by expanding their outreach around the World. In the age of globalization, the MLS has no other choice but to attract foreign interest, otherwise it will not be able to even get these local TV deals that you're speaking of. After all, why would the TV networks bother providing better deals to the MLS at the expense of the other much larger leagues, given that the MLS is not lucrative for the businesses that advertise with these networks, let alone the actual network in question? For a country like the United States, where money dictates what sport most Americans should follow, there's no way the MLS can get a heftier contract than any of the other leagues unless the corporate media thought the MLS is a money-maker.

    The system goes against the MLS, which is why foreign interest is needed more than ever, if soccer was to seriously break the dominance of the four major US sports.

    However, if we set aside the premise of this thread, then there is no need for foreign interest to keep the MLS alive and kicking. But for this league to grow beyond the heights of the big four leagues, the global outreach becomes a very important factor in my opinion.

    Also, you can assume that I overestimated the amount of money the top US leagues make from the foreign markets, but the fact is these figures -- which some consider negligible -- overshadow anything the MLS was able to come up with in its totality. Call it overestimation if you want, but I'm sure the MLS would love it if they had that amount of international revenue to play with.

    Whatever the case may be, the fact is it was a classic example of pot calling the kettle black. You don't know for a fact why Liverpool has a huge number of foreign supporters anymore than I do. I personally think it's because of the cup success that the club had in the 2000s, as well as the fact the club was simply better than other clubs in marketing itself to various markets in the Far East. I wouldn't be so sure about how massively more popular they are than the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea, given that Chelsea have been a top 10 revenue-generating club since 2000, long before it had any realistic shot at winning things. Even Manchester City, despite its obvious lack of history, was able to grow so fast in the past couple of years and has now overtaken Liverpool in not only brand value, but also in annual income.

    I'm a Liverpool fan, by the way... For family reasons, though. :p

    Speaking of "making assumptions and treating them as facts", here's another example of where you've contradicted yourself.

    For your information, the Qatar national team players do not represent the cream of the crop in Qatari football. Most of the players chosen for the squad are handpicked by the QFA president for personal reasons. A notable example was the omission of Qatar's best goalkeeper, Mohamed Saqr, from the national team many years ago, in spite of his prime goalkeeping age and the fact he's won so many things for his club, both domestically and in the AFC Champions League.

    And there are many more examples like Mohamed Saqr's. Furthermore, many so-called Qatari players are actually naturalized players who, for some reason or other, cannot participate with the national team.

    By the way, the QSL isn't even the best league in the region. I'd easily place the Saudi and UAE leagues ahead of the QSL in terms of quality. It's not just about being easy on the eye, though. The standard of football in the QSL is superior to the MLS. There are fewer silly mistakes than the things I see in MLS games.

    Where did you get that idea from? All I said in the last page was that I don't think the US will ever allow sports like basketball to be overtaken by soccer, for many reasons, one of which has to do with basketball's important cultural outreach to the rest of the World. The fact the NBA can influence FIBA is a testament to how influential America is in the World of basketball. I compared it to the influence the Premier League had on FIFA in implementing goal-line technology. The fact is, it will be even strategically foolish for the Americans to ever allow their own sports to go down.

    It brings me back to the whole point I was making, which is that soccer has a mountain to climb in the US, and needs every foreign help it could get, which is what Premier League clubs like Manchester City are trying to do.

    Sorry for the late reply, by the way. :oops:
     

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