Review: Does 4-2-3-1 hurt young strikers' chance in Germany noadays? Causing this striker drought?

Discussion in 'Germany: National Teams' started by Kirsten19, Aug 12, 2013.

  1. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Since Mario Gomez's emergence in 2006/2007 season, i really can't think of many forwards who is internatonal team calibre in the league. yes, 6-7 years

    Manuel Fischer, Schieber, Sukuta-Pasu, Mlapa, Lennart Thy n Scheidhauer who were rated highly have still yet to establish themselves in the league. I think players' quality is apparently an issue, but they were never given enough chances also becuase all the clubs are always willing to heavily invest in their striker department every summer, especially when there is only one starting CF spot on the pitch. When there is a star/proven/expereinced friegne striker joining, n there is only one starting CF spot, its logical that the clubs prefer the expereinced foreign strikers ahead of the young, inexpereinced local striker no matter how talented they are. And thats an issue more than the players' potential or talent.

    Young strikers are either rotten on the bench or being used as a midfielder like Aaron Hunt, Thomas Mueller, Andre Schuerrle and Esswein. Playing out of their best position or the position where they've been trained earlier through their young professional career.

    Obviously, clubs' overuse of foreign strikers have a big influence; but what makes things worse is the popularity of 4-5-1 formation. There is only one CF in the system. Young German striker may have to compete with 3-4 more experienced strikers for the only CF role. It will be a lot harder/more competitive than a system with two strikers instead.

    back in the days, when teams were using 2-strikers formation, even a young striker being the 3rd CF in a team roster, he still have many chances to perform off the bench n make impressions even as a sub. Nowadays, being a 3rd striker in a roster means u are not getting ANY playing time AT ALL. Consider teams always have 3 options ahead: 1st CF option, play strikerless, 2nd CF option

    While other countries like Italy, France, Brazil, England, Holland have a number of good striker prospects coming through, who's Germany's next after Mario Gomez?

    I think the problem is getting more desperate as Klose is retiring soon, and we have no other decent striker option other than Mario Gomez, or maybe Max Kruse (who did well for Freiburg but need prove himself in Gladbach again after the move, but still not NT calibre imo)

    Niclas Fullkrug, Marvin Ducksch and Timo Werner(!) who are seen as future hope of Germany's strikers are used as midfielders for their teams in preseason. And they all have the perfect game as modern strikers as they are fast, technical, creative, clinical finishers n have the killer instinct u want in a striker who play up top. In Fullkrug n Ducksch's case, they both are 6'2" or over n have prototype size for the position. but playign them at AM just to ensure they have playing time? does that mean we are gonna lose 3 Cfs with star potential n become above average AMs where the NT have found a log-jam already?

    Is that the future? young strikers will never be given enough chances at their natual position, as expereinced/proven froeign strikers will be used ahead of the young/inexpereinced young domestic strikers; Teams are gonna invest heavily on strikers every summer as there is only one starting CF spot on the pitch; young strikers are either benched or being used as AMs. Will this happen to the next crops of talented striker prospects like Dominik Martinovic, Johannes Eggestein and Paul Besong as well?

    So when are we gonna have a decent striker prospect emerged after Mario gomez in 06/07?
     
  2. RacMan93

    RacMan93 Member

    Jul 15, 2010
    Montreal
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    you might be on to something

    we produce the best am and dm in the world along with spain but we cant produce a world class striker
     
  3. RacMan93

    RacMan93 Member

    Jul 15, 2010
    Montreal
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    you might be on to something

    we produce the best am and dm in the world along with spain but we cant produce a world class striker
     
  4. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Yes I was saying we can't produce a good striker at all when teams keep buying more proven/experienced foreigne strikers; playing our young strikers at midfield and before when we played two strikers in the lineup, 3rd striker(a young striker usually) will have chance to play by coming off the bench and made impressions. Nowadays. 3rd striker is a surplus in a roster under 4-5-1

    Maybe like Pourie, who has emerged and became a starting CF in FC Copenhagen(Danish top team) after leaving Germany, is another route for young strikers. I think German strikers needa move abroad and play in other leagues to ensure playing time. Mario Gomez n Klose both struggled in their last year in Bundesliga n unwated by their team. Went to Italy and everything seems to work out fine

    Fuellkrug, Ducksch n Lasoga for example can be starting CFs for mid-table clubs in other coutnries. Dont forget Sukuta-Pasu also went to Austria last season, played very well there and guarantee a starting CF spot
     
  5. hackespitze123

    Jul 24, 2008
    Germany
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Look beyond Germany - how many truly outstanding strikers are still there?

    Football has evolved, the 'classical' fox in the box striker is going extinct. Strikers / forwards today have a considerably more refined all-round game, the differences to attacking midfielders are becoming negligible. The trend is clearly moving towards generalists at the expense of specialists, closer to the 'total football' ideal of every player being able to play on every position.
     
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  6. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    there are still top striker prospects like Balotelli, Benzema

    But in our case, we have a striker drought for more than 7 years. Not only the classic, old-school #9 havent emerged(Lasogga/Ginczek), but the well-rounded type like Fullkrug/Ducksch as well. Or there some some "strikers who have given up and play at AMs like Volland and Esswein

    So all our young strikers are either benched or have to changed to play at AMs. when there is only one starting CF spot out there, its becoming more and more competitive. Teams usually do not need 3 strikers in their roster, and they are investing heavily on more expereinced/proven foreign strikers every summer, which really makes life so difficult to The German young strikers.

    Some of them were trained to play at CF in their entire career. Not every can make the transition and play at RW/LW like Mueller, Hunt, Schurrle and Volland did. So there are many striker "bust" in the last few years.

    But i think Marvin Pourie's case is an interesting scenario. He is currently emerged as a starting CF for the Danish Champion team FC Copenhagen, given the fact that his career was almost ruined when he was in Germany. Sukuta-Pasu also started in Austria last season and played like a top 10 player there. I think thats the way out for young German strikers nowadays. They needa leave to find oppotunities elsewhere. Playing somewhere abroad is better than rotten on the bench as a 2nd/3rd option striker behind an expereinced/proven foreign big money signings which teams make every summer

    In fact, Klose n Gomez were both unwanted by BM in their last 1-2 years n had to leave n play for the Italian teams. This happens to younger strikers too
     
  7. timh19

    timh19 Member+

    Jul 26, 2011
    You can NOT put the likes of Fullkrug and Ducksch in the same category as Lasogga,Mlapa,Ginczek as players who haven't emerged or can't emerge because they are 2 and 3 years younger and they are just starting to make their FIRST steps in the Bundesliga and both of them(Fuellkrug and Ducksch) were out for 6/7 months with injuries which set them back. The likes of Lasogga/Mlapa/Ginczek are still very young themselves.

    Lewandowski had his first great Bundesliga season at the age of 23. Lasogga/Mlapa/ Ginczek are 22 years old. It is still early to tell if they are failures or not. Becoming a top striker is a process. It can't happen immediately. Experience is very important.
     
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  8. timh19

    timh19 Member+

    Jul 26, 2011
    *age of 22.
     
  9. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The short answer to your question simply is no.

    4-2-3-1 systems actually encourage strikers...
     
  10. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    No it doesnt

    we can't produce a good striker at all when clubs keep buying more proven/experienced foreign strikers every summer since there is only one starting CF spot on the pitch. There is no way young/inexpereinced CF will pick ahead of these big money spending on proven/expereinced strikers;

    playing our young strikers at midfield, esepcaily the well-rounded type like Volland n Thomas Mueller. Recently we saw Niclas Fullkrug, Marvin Ducksch and Timo Werner(!) who are seen as future hope of Germany's strikers are used as midfielders for their teams in preseason. And they all have the perfect game as modern strikers as they are fast, technical, creative, clinical finishers n have the killer instinct u want in a striker who play up top. In Fullkrug n Ducksch's case, they both are 6'2" or over n have prototype size for the position. but playign them at AM just to ensure they have playing time? does that mean we are gonna lose 3 Cfs with star potential n become above average AMs where the NT have found a log-jam already?

    before when we played two strikers in the lineup, 3rd striker(a young striker usually) will have chance to play by coming off the bench and made impressions. Nowadays. 3rd striker is a surplus in a roster under 4-2-3-1

    4-2-3-1 does make the lone striker spot more competitive. Even as a 2nd striker in the roster, it doesnt mean a lot anyway. To ensure our strikers starting at the CF position, they may have to leave Bundesliga to find better opportunities. klose n Gomez were pretty much benched in their last 1-2 seasons in Bayern Munich (Klose lost the spot to Gomez; Gomez lost to Mandzukic) n now they are doing find in Italy; Marvin Pourie's blossom in Danmark is another example why our yung strikers needa leave Germany n find chances elsewhere rather than being rotten on the bench or transforming into midfiedlers
     
  11. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    You can make an argument about the 4-2-3-1 making it more competitive for strikers but it's a thin argument to make for it as a reason we're not producing strikers which is implied in your overall argument. Or hurting youngster's chances.

    4-2-3-1 systems were made for mobile strikers. The system thrives on them. Look back at the very successful systems and its originator Benitez and how it has been used. You will more often than not see strikers there so it's not the system that's to blame. That's a deeper argument to have and I'm not quite sure why that's the case to be honest.

    A move towards specialization in football in general may be a reason. Either way, the way football in Germany is going now, we will likely see even less striker emphasis and if we do see an introduction of strikers from youth level it will be in very flexible systems where we won't necessarily see them as perform in the traditional sense of waiting in the box.

    Right now I'm just inclined to say it's a generational problem that we aren't producing those types of players and can only lean on the evolution of football - our emphasis on technique and style for a decade now made it probably more available for players to be specialized attackers. Maybe the tall strong kids who started as strikers were just too limited so they were moved back to defense or midfield. But I reckon in time this will have a knock-off effect so to speak where we will start to see these bright attacking players who will play very advanced. score regularly and eventually become strikers. All in due time though. At this point it's just about how we cope tactically and thankfully we have all the tools to do so, just not a manager who understands that.
     
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  12. timh19

    timh19 Member+

    Jul 26, 2011
    We have Samed Yesil so no worries there. Just give him 3 years and he will be a top striker.
     
  13. hackespitze123

    Jul 24, 2008
    Germany
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Not if he continues to play for the Liverpool reserves. Shouldn't have left Germany where breaking into the first team is considerably easier for young promising talent, particularly German talent.
     
  14. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    I remember u saying we don't n have our own Lewandowski, Benzema or Lukaku...if teams keep using experienced strikers, spending on big money transfer at that position, n let our Home grown strikers stuck on the bench or play out of their position, I don't think we can ever produce a world class center forward

    I certainly think players with Killer instinct n Poacher ability help. We can't hv skills n creativity and no one executes.

    Ducksch n Füllkrug for example are very well-rounded striker who have size, creativity, pace, techniques AS WELL AS poaching ability, clinical finishing and killer instinct in the box. But they are used as AMs? They were trained as Strikers and I believe where their best position is.

    As I've said, Klose/Gomez n now even Marvin Pourie show that playing in other countries may be the only solution for us to find a good poacher at that lone CF spot again.

    In the past, we had Mlapa, Volland, Esswein, Thomas Mueller, Aaron Hunt, Schurrle turned from CF to AMs. Some made the transition, some didn't. Those who didn't find success at AM didn't mean they were busts tho, because some are born to be played up top. For example if Batistuta, Ronaldo or Cantona were used as Wingers instead of at their best position at CF, they wouldn't have such achievement

    I hope the same wont happen on our next waves of talented strikers in Dominik Martinovic(very possible since he plays winger for The U16 before), Johannes Eggestein n Paul Besong too. Or else they can follow Klose, Gomez n Pourie's footstep...play abroad in other leagues and at least having regular playing time at their natural position at CF
     
  15. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Exactly my point. Yesil made a wrong decision. He moved to a place where the competition up up was more severe than he was at Leverkusen;

    Klose, Gomez n Pourie(Copenhagen) moved to clubs where they can guarantee playing time at CF, and as starters. That makes the difference.

    I actually think Sukuta-Pasu's move to Austria was a good one too, he started there and played like a top 20 player in the Austrian League
     
  16. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Can't use past examples as the game was different in the 90's....that much is obvious.

    And our attacking players will execute n that's the plan.
     
  17. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    I remember u saying we don't n have our own Lewandowski, Benzema or Lukaku...if teams keep using experienced strikers, spending on big money transfer at that position, n let our Home grown strikers stuck on the bench or play out of their position, I don't think we can ever produce a world class center forward

    I certainly think players with Killer instinct n Poacher ability help. We can't hv skills n creativity and no one executes.

    Ducksch n Füllkrug for example are very well-rounded striker who have size, creativity, pace, techniques AS WELL AS poaching ability, clinical finishing and killer instinct in the box. But they are used as AMs? They were trained as Strikers and I believe where their best position is.

    As I've said, Klose/Gomez n now even Marvin Pourie show that playing in other countries may be the only solution for us to find a good poacher at that lone CF spot again.
     
  18. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    After seeing the examples from Klose, Gomez n even Marvin Pourie who has joined the Danish Champion team being their starting CF. My conclusion:

    I'd much rather have our young strikers playing abroad in non-major league, starting n playing at their natural position at CF; instead of being rotten on the bench or being misused as AMs in Bundesliga. Playing well in 3BL or not isnt relevant

    That way, we can develop our own Lewandowski, Lukaku n Benzema
     
  19. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Right...we don't have the latter and I don't think sending them abroad is a solution as they will not be capable to adapt to the German style or at least be very familiar with it.

    Strikers will develop here again, just not any time soon. Until then we are fine.
     
  20. timh19

    timh19 Member+

    Jul 26, 2011
    It was certainly stupid to move to England. He should have stayed in Germany but it is what it is. Anyway, Yesil has the ''x factor'' and I believe he can make it anywhere he goes.

    He can't even play for Liverpool's reserves because he's been injured since February. He's almost back though. It's going to be interesting to see what he does this season. He will go on loan if he doesnt get chances in the first team.
     
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  21. timh19

    timh19 Member+

    Jul 26, 2011
    What about Ginczek ? He is first choice striker at Nuernberg and even scored a goal in the first game. Should he move abroad too ? Polter was the starting striker for Mainz but he doesnt look good enough. He missed two very good chances and makes the wrong decisions on the pitch.
     
  22. hackespitze123

    Jul 24, 2008
    Germany
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany

    Very much agree about Yesil's talent. But as we all know, talent alone is not a guarantee for a successful career.

    As far as German youngsters in the EPL are concerned, I have higher hopes for those two highly talented kids playing for the Arsenal reserves, as Wenger's ...unconditional love for young players increases their chances quite a bit...
     
  23. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    I actually don't mind our young strikers playing in Austria, Danmark, Holland n Switzerland, as long as they can start and play at their natural position (CF in this case)

    Make an impression in those minor leagues then join Bundesliga teams afterwards. The impression of 2BL n 3BL football is rather like unprofessional. So maybe playing in smaller/less competitive leagues is a good way to make a player become "ready"

    Klose n Gomez left Germany because they weren't wanted here; Pourie needed a new start, joined a bottom team in Danmark but eventually his talent was discovered n joined a champion team there.

    Playing in smaller leagues isn't something to be ashamed of; rotten on the bench and eventually become a "bust" is what young players should avoid.

    Ducksch, Füllkrug n Timo Werner were used as midfielders. But they are all "fox in the box" type clinical poachers. They are well-rounded, fast, technical, creative as well as being very clinical n has such killer instinct in front of goals. With their allround skill-set, coaches can play them everywhere of coz, but they are all suited to play as modern strikers. Will be a waste to see them playing far away from the box n can't take advantage of their strengths

    Ducksch, Füllkrug n Werner can be star strikers for Germany in future; but if they are changed to play at AM, they are just one of the many above average AMs (Schurrle n Volland?) who started as strikers n later become decent AMs in the league

    Here are the German Benzema, Lewandowski n Aguero lol
     
  24. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    You can't presume that just because these players are strikers and will get playing time they are automatically out Benzema, Lewandowski, Aguero..

    If they were they would 100% remain with their clubs and be nurtured. Clubs don't kick players to the curb because they are strikers. They do so because they aren't good enough.
     
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  25. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    They will never be good to start over proven/experienced Foreign strikers. Every summer, teams are willing to invest heavily on that lone striker position on the pitch because it is that crucial

    A young striker can't start over the proven/experienced big money transfer, that's logical. That doesn't mean they are bad or has no potential. Rather, it's more like a marketing/safe strategy.

    As I said 2nd/3rd striker don't have much playing time in a roster nowadays. Before, even 3rd striker(usually younger local striker like Mario Gomez was) could still have plenty of chances coming off the bench n impress n slowly fought into th starting lineup. The situation now doesn't allow this to happen.
     

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