People tend to forget he was also involved in pretty much all goals in the Olympics as well. The final really overshadowed that fact. His form did dip in the friendlies after that leading up to the Confed Cup. But I believe all he needs is the right support system and some decent scoring chances. He won't be able to do it on his own.
Yeah, but this was by far his best performances. Take away the goals and assists and he did much more in this competition than at any other point.
But Neymar has BEEN that player since his start in the Brazilian NT. People jsut didn't give him credit because he was doing it in friendlies and playing for Santos. Oh look! he's in Barca now.. let's give him credit?
yes, if we looked close , most 70% of the attacking starting from his left side or directly from him. He got 2 assists, plus 2,3 pre-assists
That has been consistent with our Selecao when Neymar is on the pitch... He has always been this player... 24 goal in 39 matches plus countless assists.. do you REALLY think you get that by not being involved? or do you REALLY believe he got all of the 24 goals against Iraq? That's not even counting his Olympic tournament (which he was really good but our defense.. ooooohh our defense... ) Honestly people.. open your eyes..
People give Neymar credit, Barca or not. All I was saying is that the stats pointed out by Mengao86 are nice, though nothing exceptional from a player who is supposed to be that good, and that Neymar just gotta keep delivering. I never said he "just started delivering" and before Confed Cup he was bad (though in the Spring friendlies he was notably worse than in the Confed Cup imo) or that what he did at Santos doesn't merit credit.
Nothing exceptional? Does anyone else in international soccer have those kinds of stats right now? Honest question.
International stats need to be taken with a grain of salt. Torres just won a golden boot despite playing poorly again. Obviously that wasn't the case with Neymar in this particular tournament, but you get the idea ...
Just look at the players in the top 10, then tell me again if reaching that won't count for something. Of course, winning a WC would be much more important, but it's sad that there is always a "but..." attached to everything Neymar achieves. He won the Libertadores and was voted the best player in the tournament, "but he didn't face any Brasilian or Argentine team", he is Santos's biggest scorer after the Pelé era, "but he doesn't play well against the big teams" (biggest lie of all, he scored goals on every big club in Brazil and on all final matches he participated on minus the Mexico match at the Olympics). He is the Seleção top scorer and one of the main playmakers, "but he doesn't show up against the likes of Italy, Spain, Germany"... And when he does provide important goals against two of the biggest NTs on earth, "Confederations Cup are just glorified friendlies". Seriously, is it that hard to accept his merits? Not all of that applies to you Bocafan of course, you didn't even mention club football... Just venting it out. Your point about Fernando Torres makes sense, I find it funny that a few decades in the future people may look back and read about Torres winning golden boots left and right and imagine " man, THAT was a player!", yup stats alone are only numbers, they don't tell the whole history... But as you said, it's not the case with Neymar.
I love Neymar as player. I never understood the Neyhaters. I disliked him because of his attitude back in 2011, but I saw something from him and then his games and he has grown to become my favorite player. I am certain he will do well at Barca. I never got the notion he would fail. I even accepted his diving.
Top attackers, in NT and club football, are supposed to have goal/assist stats like that. Tough to put an exact number on where the limit is, but let's say if you average (in the recent past) under 1 goal or assist / game, then there are attackers who are better than you at the moment. If we judge player's form on his whole career stats (which I think makes no sense) then it's of course a bit different as today top attackers might have had weaker years in the past. But what matters is the current form. Another thing is if we judge a player on NT performances solely, which I partly understand though I think it's better to judge a player on both the performances for club and NT.
Ok, well, I'm still not aware of any player who has had recent stats at the international level that are as good as Neymar's. Maybe Messi during the current World Cup qualifiers? Either way, watching Neymar have a spectacular tournament and win the Golden Ball, and then saying something along the lines of "he's just doing what he's supposed to do," just seems petty to me. He played inspired, artistic, effective soccer, and he deserves some reverence.
Recent stats as in how recent? This year, last two years? Well, I meant it more like a "he's doing what he is supposed to do, if he indeed is as good as people make him to be". That was not an underestimation of his performances, that was a cautious way of saying "great work, keep it up". Indeed he played greatly in Confed Cup. I don't wanna/need to underestimate him, I like him and he plays for my club.
If I'm adding things up correctly, Neymar has had 16 goals and 7 assists in 24 games for Brazil over the last calendar year, including the Olympics. Has anyone matched that kind of production for their national team? Again, I'm not trying to claim that no one has, I'm genuinely curious.
2012 and 2013? Well, Messi has 16 goals, dunno about how many assists, in 15 matches. Gotta say Olympics though: imo, it's tricky to include as it's not an A level competition.
Rana Catasbeiana, What are You on about?? Of course this is exceptional stats, especially for a 21 year old! 24 goals and 16 assists in 39 games What had Messi done up until this age: 10 goals and 10 assists in 34 games And of course You had to compare with Messi´s absolute top years 2012-13 where he has been exceptional with 16 goals and 5 assists in 15 games but aside from that he has not lived up to "Your criteria" 1 goal/assist per game, and in total 35 goals and 30 assists in 82 games.
Sure, exceptional stats for a player, couldn't agree more. But for a player who is a top five attacker in the world, not that exceptional. Calm down.
People praise Messi as the greatest for doing what he's supposed to do in Barcelona... this argument is invalid.
How about for the supposed #1 in the world? having stats which are worse? What does it say about the other 4 in the top 5 category when everyone is behind Neymar? Those are questions nobody wants to answer, because the simple answer is.. Neymar has been better at the NT level than any other forward in the world.. and he's 21. So people just try to diminish his accomplishments, by undermining the games he played and the championships he lost. When all the other 4 guys (pick whatever 4 you want) haven't won championships during the same time or had stats close to his stats...
What's invalid? That the best players should have the best stats? People praise Neymar, people praise Messi, people praise Cristiano and they have all the reasons to do so. I don't see a problem.
When we consider how good players are, can't just pick NT or club levels, gotta take both. Otherwise we talk about something else. In 2012 and 2013, Neymar has 56 goals in 70 matches for Santos (afaik). 18 goals in 24 matches for Brazil. That's 0,79 goals per match. Messi has in the 2012-2013 season 60 goals in 50 matches for Barca, and in 2012 and 2013 16 goals in 15 matches for Argentina. That's 1,17 per match. To me, it's pretty simple: Messi has better stats no matter how you look at it. And that's no criticism on Neymar - he is winning over more and more doubters and he is still improving, but it's no use to think he is already the best in the world. In the future? Possibly. Now, as for the other attackers in the top five, I'd say there has to be Cavani and Cristiano, and then someone as the fifth, maybe Van Persie or Falcao. Cavani and Cristiano anyway. Currently, Cristiano is the number two (imo). Which is better, Cavani or Neymar? I dunno. I like Neymar more though. I don't mean to underestimate Neymar's accomplishments. He is a great attacker with true world class stats and a bright future, but currently, he is no number #1. I guess, as far as attackers are concerned, 3-4 would be fair.
So you pick the only year messi actually did well for his national team? 2009 10 games 3 goals, 2011 10 games 2 goals, 2012 13 games 4 goals, 2013 9 games 12 goals... So you decide to pick the year where he actually did well as your sample size? 38 games 22 goals since 2010 in national team 39 games 24 goals since 2010 in national team How closer can those numbers get? the only thing is that one was 19 in 2010 The other was 2 time FIFA player of the year and 23. People don't realize that Neymar is not coming to Barcelona to sit on the bench. He's coming to be Messi's equal. ... Oh and by the way..... Cavani is not a top scorer, seriously stop judging players because you know their names. Forlan on his bad day is better than him... And he's 80, Suarez is better than him, most of the game he's throwing himself on the floor.