I still haven't finished looking at how the scores would be if we all counted just our top 10's but I might as well update the current standings for the original method after all the adjustments: 1 Pele 1322 2 Diego Maradona 1290 3 Johan Cruyff 1281 4 Franz Beckenbauer 1218 5 Alfredo Di Stefano 1215 6 Ferenc Puskas 1175 7 Michel Platini 1148 8 Garrincha 1080 9 Ronaldo 1015 10 Zico 992 11 Zinedine Zidane 990 12 Eusebio 986 13= Gerd Muller 927 13= George Best 927 15 Marco van Basten 877 16 Bobby Charlton 869 17 Paolo Maldini 741 18 Lothar Matthaus 710 19 Lev Yashin 670 20 Romario 666 21 Franco Baresi 600 22 Ruud Gullit 554 23 Roberto Baggio 552 24 Bobby Moore 525 25 Didi 503 26 Lionel Messi 502 27 Rivelino 456 28 Ronaldinho 430 29 Stanley Matthews 423 30 Giussepe Meazza 397 31 Jose Manuel Moreno 336 32 Zizinho 312 33 Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 297 34 Dino Zoff 265 35 Raymond Kopa 257 36 Leonidas 254 37 Gianni Rivera 240 38 Thierry Henry 233 39 Daniel Passarella 206 40 Fritz Walter 202 41 Paolo Rossi 198 42 Michael Laudrup 196 43 Sandor Kocsis 177 44 Rivaldo 176 45 Matthias Sindelar 164 46 Ladislao Kubala 163 47 Mario Kempes 154 48= Dennis Bergkamp 153 48= Cristiano Ronaldo 153 50 Falcao 134 51 Juan Schiaffino 129 52 Gianluigi Buffon 123 53 George Weah 119 54 Gabriel Batistuta 118 55 Peter Schmeichel 116 56= Johan Neeskens 112 56= Roberto Carlos 112 56= Josef Bican 112 59= Luis Figo 105 59= Socrates 105 61 Gordon Banks 103 62 Sandro Mazzola 99 63 Omar Sivori 96 64= Teofilo Cubillas 95 64= Carlos Alberto 95 66 Giacinto Facchetti 93 67 Just Fontaine 92 68= Kenny Dalglish 91 68= Gunnar Nordahl 91 70 Nilton Santos 88 71 Jairzinho 84 72= Frank Rijkaard 77 72= Jurgen Klinsmann 77 74 Gheorghe Hagi 76 75= Jozsef Bozsik 75 75= Gyorgy Sarosi 75 77= Adolfo Pedernera 74 77= Elias Figueroa 74 79 Uwe Seeler 72 80 Hristo Stoichkov 69 81 Duncan Edwards 68 82= Luis Suarez Miramontes 67 82= Samuel Eto'o 67 84= Cafu 66 84= Xavi 66 86 Hugo Sanchez 65 87 Andres Iniesta 61 88 Dejan Savicevic 60 89 Matthias Sammer 54 90= Francesco Totti 53 90= Kaka 53 92 Lilian Thuram 52 93 Alberto Ohaco 50 94 Imre Schlosser 47 95 Hector Scarone 43 96 Cesar Cueto 42 97 Gaetano Scirea 41 98= Valentino Mazzola 40 98= Oldrich Nejedly 40 100 Arsenio Erico 37 101 Luigi Riva 36 102= Ernst Ocwirk 34 102= Romerito 34 102= Kazimierz Deyna 34 105 Djalma Santos 33 106= John Charles 32 106= Jose Leandro Andrade 32 108 Kevin Keegan 31 109= Jose Nasazzi 30 109= Luis Monti 30 111= Tostao 29 111= Dragan Dzajic 29 113= Francisco Gento 26 113= Ryan Giggs 26 113= Carlos Valderrama 26 113= Eddie Hapgood 26 117= Arthur Friedenreich 25 117= Junior 25 117= Bruno Conti 25 117= Enzo Francescoli 25 117= Amadeo Carizzo 25 122= Eric Cantona 23 122= Piet Keizer 23 122= Oliver Kahn 23 122= Alberto Spencer 23 126 Nandor Hidegkuti 22 127= Zbigniew Boniek 21 127= Paul Breitner 21 129= Andriy Shevchenko 20 129= Mario Zagallo 20 129= Tom Finney 20 132 Bebeto 19 133= Domingos Da Guia 17 133= Albert Shesternyov 17 135= Arjen Robben 16 135= Rene Higuita 16 137= Fabio Cannavaro 14 137= Raul 14 137= Wim van Hanegem 14 140= Gunnar Gren 12 140= Claudio Gentile 12 142= Berti Vogts 11 142= Jay-Jay Okocha 11 142= Roger Milla 11 145= Ian Rush 10 145= Alessandro Del Piero 10 145= Abedi Pele 10 145= Anton Schall 10 149= Emilio Butragueno 9 149= Careca 9 149= Oleg Blokhin 9 152= Sepp Maier 8 152= Leandro 8 152= Demetrio Albertini 8 152= Hugo Sotil 8 156= Gerson 7 156= Alessandro Nesta 7 156= Preben Elkjaer 7 156= Marcel Desailly 7 156= Neymar 7 161= Ruud van Nistelrooy 6 161= Wolfgang Overath 6 163= Nils Liedholm 5 163= Edgar Davids 5 163= Ubaldo Fillol 5 163= Fritz Szepan 5 167= Wesley Sneijder 4 167= Fernando Redondo 4 167= Bryan Robson 4 167= Dixie Dean 4 171= Jorginho 3 171= Hector Chumpitaz 3 171= Roberto Donadoni 3 174= Telmo Zarra 2 174= Gary Lineker 2 174= David Trezeguet 2 174= Rob Rensenbrink 2 178= Robert Pires 1 178= Deco 1 178= Marco Tardelli 1 178= Rafael Marquez 1 178= Murtaz Khurtsilava 1
I don't want to fall in a bitter argument really, and for a thorough answer I should also look at PDG his choices in detail. I like it that he puts players in brackets and signals with that how they are similar in standing. I just would rank the players in a different way. Ranking Beckenbauer over Cruijff is the most eye-catching big error in my view but given your history and preferences it is no surprise. You'd maybe point at the Ballon d'Or annual ranks, which you often did in the past, but then I can also pick some out who are either too high or too low on the very same Ballon d'Or criteria. Luckily, many would not rank the Galactic Emperor that high. Maldini at 11th is another one. Obviously longevity plays a big part and is his outstanding aspect. But so it is for Gento, who played at a harder position IMO (given all the hazards on the road and the rapid playing style developments the game saw during his career), and belonged consistently to the three/four best players of his team, who is at 49th. Though I can see that it is difficult/indefinitive to account for two entirely different eras the players played in, 40 years apart. Ofc Maldini had a more prominent national team career and high Ballon d'Or placings (which he did not deserve, to be frank) but that makes such discussions tending to a stalemate because so many factors are drawn in. But is each factor given an equal weight at each next player? What I mean is that it usually becomes a fruitless conversation or discussion because a set of dimensions or factors are drawn in, then those factors are used to evaluate the other placings, and as next step a new set of factors are mentioned as decider between players (e.g. what separates player a from b given that both stand out on factor z; or that player a is better as player b on that dimension but yet ranked lower). Or the questioner himself draws in a new set of arguments (like I do now with Gento actually, see above). As overall impression I see less 'outliers' (i.e. Maldini) in PDG his list and also less cases where contemporaries (of the same era) are ranked in the 'wrong' order. In a way PDG makes it both easier for himself and yet prone to criticism by predominantly looking at peak form (and stage ofc, because that is invariably related to peak form) and the skillset or abilities of a player. It also helps that I often had nice conversations with PDG which helps me to understand his ideas (for example: putting George Best at five) and also understand the uncertainties he observes. Without wanting to sound too cosy I can understand him very often.
That's fine, I'm not looking for an argument either. I have a lot of respect for PDG and also for individual opinions. I just wanted to get your feel for why. I said originally on doing this that I can toss up any of Maradona, Di Stefano, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Puskas and put them in any order. I don't have a problem with them either way. Also just to reiterate I don't have any German/Dutch preferences. If anything mine are in favour of the Dutch. This is what really intrigued me though. PDG's list is certainly the more "individual" in that it has more of what I would regard as being personal preferences. Nothing wrong with that but I think that it is normally less likely for two people to be in agreement on some of the moves from the orthodoxy. In terms of "outliers" I would personally have thought that the inclusion of Maldini at 11 was less of an outlier in conventional terms than, say, Savicevic at 22, Weah at 28, Kaka at 41, Pires at 50, Brian Laudrup at 63 or Robertson at 98. I'm not saying those are wrong choices but I would have thought mine was more of a consensus list. I know you dislike though what you see as being established opinions.
I think both do not follow the 'consensus'. Not the consensus of today, of 10 years ago or further back (arguably the consensus changes very much). Most would not rank Puskas that high (outside Britain). Most would not rate Di Stefano over Maradona, Beckenbauer over Cruijff, Gullit over Van Basten. Or, as example that doesn't fit my usual perception, Boszik over Matthaus. I also think that the gap between Boszik and Ocwirk was never seen as that big although many players are located within that 'range' (in the 20-40 range). I also would say that Eusebio was for a long time regarded as a better ('greater') player as Gerd Müller (not entirely sure though). But arguably that has changed in the internet-era where it is maybe more as ever a matter of putting the most chips on the table. (same with George Best, who was in my observation not seen as a greater left winger as Gento outside of the British Isles, until the internet was invented; btw, I'm personally not sure about the order of this one! also because both are like water vs fire) Obviously the further you go back down below the less of a 'consensus' exists. Yes, I also see 'odd' choices in PDG his list like Robertson, the Forest hero, that high but so is Sol Campbell as 10th best marker in history (who is usually 'overrated' but putting at 10th is stretching it further). Anyway, that are just examples. Just sayin' that in my eyes both lists do not follow the consensus - with which I do not mean it is a 'good' or 'bad' thing. EDIT: Like I said, in general I like about PDG that he puts similar players in the same bracket and I can often understand him (despite disagreeing at times). He also limits the dimensions he considers which makes it both 'easier' and more prone to debunking criticism (with less dimensions there is no 'escape route' so to speak). To state it clearer this time: yes, I do not agree with his rating of Larsson and Laudrup but I can follow and understand him. He explains it well and that makes it easier to sympathize/empathize with it. But now I'm repeating what I said in the previous post
As addition: It is arguably the case that more than 20 names have a credible say for the 20-40 spots. That is what I mean, as defence for the gap between Boszik and Ocwirk. I think the further one moves below, the less of a 'worldwide consensus' exists (or how someone wants to call it). Around the 25-30 range it already becomes very loose with for ex. some placing Romario inside the top 25-30 and others outside the top 50-60 (with some Brazilians ranked ahead of Romario like Rivaldo, Ronaldinho as recent ex-players). PDG made an analysis of PeruFC his list and comme his list and it showed that both shared 25 players in the top 30. That is a high level of consensus (maybe some names fall just outside the top 30 of the one and is within the top 30 of the other). But in the 30-50 range 'only' six names were shared. For 50-100 there was a consensus about 18 players (both had the same 18 players in the 50-100 range). Btw, I do not see that as a 'bad' thing.
What I'm going to do at this point, although new votes are still very welcome, is to make a new post for each player in the consensus top 50 (original voting method standings - although I don't say that the more exclusive top 30 method is better or worse) containing a Youtube clip or compilation. The 4 year point is perhaps a good time to sum up, and still just about in the same era meaning that the earliest votes are probably still roughly in line with the persons current idea. I'll start it now, counting down from 50th place.
[Dearman is a good bloke and he knows that I love him like a son. But the gap between what Dearman THINKS that he knows about football and what he actually KNOWS about the game just might fit between Paris and Moscow. Have a four-plus page conversation w/him (including several PMs) about how according to a group of twenty-year olds I supposedly know f*ck all about Tommy Lawton or Billy Liddell and you'll see what I mean... ]
Very true - I remember it now and it reflects his assisting ability very well indeed . I'll stick to one per player as a brief 'introduction' to them, but no problem with others like you adding more.
[I don't have a video at hand; but I can tell you what he like on an actual pitch... BTW, the England players in this photo are (L to R) Jimmy Dickinson of Portsmoiuth, Billy Wright of Wolves (Eng. captain) and Harry Johnston of Blackpool. Unless my old eyes aren't doing their job correctly...]
June 2013 consensus comparison to Daily Mail top 50 (positions 41-50): ----------------Daily Mail-----------------Consensus 41---------Mario Kempes------------Paolo Rossi 42--------Emilio Butragueno-------Michael Laudrup 43--------Zbigniew Boniek----------Sandor Kocsis 44--------Kenny Dalglish------------Rivaldo 45--------Gabriel Batistuta----------Matthias Sindelar 46--------George Weah--------------Ladislao Kubala 47--------Andriy Shevchenko-------Mario Kempes 48--------Enzo Francescoli----------Dennis Bergkamp(joint 48th) 49--------Francisco Gento-----------Cristiano Ronaldo(joint 48th) 50--------Michael Laudrup----------Falcao
Sorry for messing up PDG his list but I have the two following questions if you don't mind: You said in the past that you see Puskas as primary challenger for Pelé as #1 player. With some searching I also see you said in on twitter. Why is Di Stefano (as contemporary) nevertheless ranked ahead of him even though you said that it is like flipping a coin. In the past you had a conversation with babaorum. You said that Platini his overall national team career is not 'worse' as the one of Maradona (and euro84 not worse as WC86 exploits). Why is Platini nevertheless put in a lower category? Of course also the club career plays a part but (I think) it is less contentious to state that Platini his club career is the equal as saying that his national team career can withstand the comparison. It is anyway a more occurring opinion, about the club career part. Would like to know the answer to these questions.
Good effort and initiative PDG. I was about to suggest you doing so ! ================================== It's SAD to see M.Laudrup, Rivaldo and KOcsis below Paolo Rossi. Anyway only 1 or 2 position
Thanks. I'll show the side-by-side comparison for each 10 players and then probably paste them into one post at the end too (so people can see more easily where the players are in both lists or if they are out of the top 50 in one of them).