I am trying to create all-time realistic WC squads for Argentina, Brazil, Germany, England, France, Holland, Spain and Italy. I am trying to be as realistic as possible with the rosters and formations. What do I mean by realistic? The team will not be all-star teams. Instead, I have selected a few role players and drop a few big name. For example, I dropped Labruna, Riquelme and Bochini because Argentina has too many offensive midfielders. Instead, I took Orsi, a left wing to the WC Finals. I brought Hoddle because England needed a player liked him on the bench. However, I did add a few named players to fill the roster because the manager in real life would have brought them to the WC Finals. It's liked rewarding the players for their long term services. For example, I brought Carlos Alberto even through I already have Cafu and DJ Santos. I could not drop the 1970 captain for a 4th centerback. I did the same with Deschamps and France. For formations, I will try to be as "nationalistic" as possible. Brazil will play 4-2-2-2; England 4-4-2.
Brazil GK: Gilmar, Taffarel DF: Domingos Da Guia, Luis Pereira, N Santos, DJ Santos, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Carlos Alberto, Lucio MF: Didi, Falcao, Toninho Cerezo, Danilo Alvim, Rivelino, Zico, Socrates FW: Pele, Ronaldo, Garrincha, Romario, Zizinho Carlos Alberto was the last player selected onto the team. It would have better if I picked another centerback , but I could not drop the 1970 captain. He played as a centerback in his career so I would be using him as the 4th centerback. Danilo Alvim was chosen ahead of other defensive midfielders such as Clodoaldo, Zito, and Dunga. He will be a key to this team because he is the only true defensive midfielder on the team. Toninho Cerezo beat Gerson for a spot on the team because he can be a backup to Danilo Alvim. The team will play Brazil's 4-2-2-2. If Zico pushes upward, the formation will be very similar to 4-2-4 formation used by Brazil from 1958 to 1970. Zizinho could replace Garrincha on the starting lineup if a right winger does not fit into the 4-2-2-2 formation. http://this11.com/topics/add/abEHJd6afx Use this11.com for drawing your football tactics
Argentina GK: Carrizo, Fillol DF: Passarella, Perfumo, Ruggeri, Ayala, Zanetti, Marzolini, Carlos Sosa, Tarantini MF: Monti, Rossi, Redondo, Orsi, Adriles, Sivori FW: Messi, Maradona(Cap), Di Stefano, Pedernera, Batistuta, Moreno. Labruna, Bochini and Riquelme did not make the team because the team already has too many attack midfielders/secondary forwards. Instead, I took Orsi who is a left wing and Adriles who is a deep lying midfielder. I do not need a pure right wing because I can use Messi as the wide player on the right. there. I picked Orsi over Loustau. I have two national, iconic lineups: Bilardo and Menotti. Menotti http://this11.com/topics/add/abEHJPfad1 Use this11.com for tactics for football Bilardo http://this11.com/boards/abEHJWRanG.jpg Make your football formation with this11.com
Good question. The teams are not set yet. I welcome new ideas. Note: I do not have a captain for Brazil.
Interesting idea. In the first Argentina XI I would put Maradona at the left wing instead of Di Stéfano (and him in Maradona's more central role). I think Maradona would be more useful in that position than Di Stéfano and vice versa.
I suppose that even though in Orsi's day he was considered an outside forward, if he was picked in an all-time side it might be in a more modern system where wingers are playing more as midfielders (although now again wide forwards are often used but in many cases almost like support forwards rather than pure wingers). Maradona could be used either as forward or midfielder, or most likely pretty much in between I suppose. For Moreno it might be more difficult to decide but I will leave it to you and others with a great knowledge of his game . So, what I mean is (I guess Excape Goat was considering this) if Orsi was selected in an all-time side that was lined up in a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 he would be playing an as 80's/90's winger would i.e in midfield even though his position was described as a forward position in his day.
You could be right. Another option could be to switch Redondo and Di Stefano's starting positions I think, if Maradona is playing in the hole as Redondo would be more comfortable lining up a bit to the left I think.
Oh, just looked again and we are talking about different teams! Yes, Di Stefano in the centre in team 1 (with Ardiles in and not Redondo) would make even more sense perhaps. I was thinking of switching Redondo and Di Stefano in team 2 (but that wouldn't a massive change to Excape Goat's selection as all 3 midfielders would likely get around the pitch plenty).
It depends on which Moreno or Di Stefano will be used here. If we go by when they played together, Di Stefano was strictly a centre-forward, while Moreno played deeper behind ordering the young fella. And in the only NT tournament Di Stefano played, he was used up front. As for strikers: you may want to consider the likes of Sanfilippo and Artime as well. Also with Menotti as manager: it was rare for him to want to use Maradona in a withdrawn position. Garcia and Labruna are others that should be taken into account as well.
I suppose it depends if the Real Madrid Di Stefano is eligible for selection . If not then, considering he's a Menotti hero too, would Kempes be in with a chance of selection?
If that's the time period, then I guess he would play for the Spanish NT . It could be. But if Kempes played with Maradona he would operate more in a withdrawn position and Diego up front; that's the way Menotti had them play in general.
If Maradona is captain, I assume you are giving him full control of the team and already a player in his mid-20s. But this is tricky when you have the likes of Moreno, Passarella or Di Stefano in the group. This can only pass if we are using a young Moreno or Di Stefano, because if not, there could be some chemistry issues in the team.
Yeah, I know some people suggest he got that the wrong way round though so perhaps he would realise the error of his ways or Excape Goat would point him in another direction! I suppose it's not the case that combining Kempes and Maradona of 1982 was exactly like combining Kempes of 1978 and Maradona of 1986 though (though I know you could make a case to select Maradona of about 1980 instead). You'll know better than me but I suppose the roles of Kempes in 1978 and Maradona of 1986 would clash a bit given Kempes was coming from deep often - with those 2 in that form it'd probably be worth trying to devise a system around them though. Alternatively I suppose Kempes could be an option as more of a conventional centre-forward ahead of Maradona (and Di Stefano if the Real Madrid version is ok's given that he'd be playing for his first nation in this virtual tournament; or ahead of Moreno if he was selected in the same team too I guess).
I did think before that Passarella with Redondo and/or Maradona could be an issue so maybe a young Maradona and young Redondo should be selected (before they had 'issues' with Maradona). Might be a big call to leave Passarella out and play the 1986 combination in central defence to please Maradona! Again, I think you will know more than me about the exact issues I'm referring to.
Yes, you can make the case that Diego becomes the driving force of the team in 1980, as long as Kempes is not there, as occurred many times when "el matador" was not available. Ofc, this was the problem with Menotti and his choices. On the other hand Kempes could be used up front at times (as in 1978). But as long as they played together, Menotti always gave Kempes the wheel of the team over young Diego. It could be an issue but this is where the manager has to settle things. I'm not sure which manager of the two would be right for this job, though. Passarella was a Menotti guy, while Maradona may incline himself more towards Bilardo.
So many ideas come to mind: Sastre is another player that can't be overlooked. Some old-timers considered him the greatest to have played for Argentina and he indeed was regarded as top 5 all-time for the country. He just can't be left out. "Tucho" Mendez another top player. And what about Angel Rojas? What Kempes did for Argentina cannot be forgotten either.
I agree with you here. The dilemma of Argentina ALL TIME is between Di Stefano and Moreno at CAM position (since Maradona and Messi can play WIDE) But like you suggest I think the best XI would be ----------------- Di Stefano ------------------- ---Maradona----------------------- Messi ---- --------------------Moreno --------------------- ---------- Monti------------Redondo------------ Mazolini --------------------------------- Zanetti -------------- Pasarella --- Perfumo -------------
Yes, it's a fun dilemma to deal with. But as long as Di Stefano and Moreno are in the line-up it would only be logical to have Pedernera in the squad. Besides, he is another player that was regarded as top 5 for Argentina. Antonio Sastre would require a spot somewhere in the back since he was known for his versatility to be polyfunctional and also regarded as top 5.
Argentina all time would be like Brazil case: It's always difficult to justify who in the best XI! For example, I would NORMALLY put Pedenera Moreno Di Stefano and Maradona as the front 4 in 4 2 4 system (and unfortunately Messi should be out) - just like in Brazil team, if Ronaldo in, Romario would be out .. (unfortunately) Maradona ----- Di Stefano ---- Moreno ---- Pedernera* However, I think Messi would be better on the right than a "natural CF" in Pedernera. Unless we would go for a classic 2 3 5 : Maradona --- Pedernera --- DiStefano-----Moreno ---- Messi --------- Redondo --------- Monti ---------- Ardilles----------- ----------------- Passarella ------------ Perfumo -=------------- ------------------------------Carizo --------------------------------
Unfortunately Messi would be left out but he's not a safe second bet either. The further back we go the more talented players Argentina produced in richness which were lacking in recent generations. For example, how can we overlook Enrique "el Chueco" Garcia? This was the Messi of his time in terms of dribbling, but regarded as more virtuoso. Once he debuted in 1935 he was virtually always first choice up till 1943. What about Sivori? Did he produce less for the NT in important matches? And I again stress the input and value that Norberto Mendez had with the NT (particularly in the Copa America where he decided games and finals against the Brazil of Didi, Zizinho, Gilmar and others). Labruna at one point was Argentina's all-time top scorer and one of the greats that dressed up for the NT. And what about Rinaldo Martino and Pontoni? Another great captain from the past was Jose Salomon. Should he be excluded? Gk's like Claudio Vacca also were notable. I mean the list can go on. Sometimes we forget about the past and what these men did and favor the more recent players that may not deserve a place. Anyway, like you said, it's like Brazil, very hard to pick.
I am trying to imagine if this is real. Argentina would have been playing a Bilardo or Menotti formation.
I will keep Sastre in mind. I will do some research o him and edit the rooster. Orsi will be the 19th or 20th player on the squad. I don't expect him to be on the field. I was trying to build the team around Maradona. So I put him in the center. But you are right.... Di Stefano would be better.
Let us know .. what you can find Agree I do not rate Orsi that much In center playmaking, there are 3, 4 candidates Moreno, Pedernera, Di Stefano and Maradona My opinion Moreno would be the MOST NATURAL playmaker than all. Di Stefano and Maradona could do great too but ... they were just Moreno's replica in a sense, with more prowess in scoring. The reason we put Maradona on left was he could play well there. Di Stefano, Moreno Pedernera never played WIDE! actually Maradona could play ANYWHERE from left, center to right: - He was partially a LEFT FW at Argentinos, and early Boca time and become CF - He played partially as RIGHT FW/playmaker at Barca (but if we watch the games, he was deep from the middle and build up to the wing) - he came back to his (best?) position tresquartista and CAM with Napoli (and some games for Argentina) ======================================= Same with Brazil: DIDI would be a more natural playmaker than Pele/Rivelino/Zico /Socrates For France: Zidane would be a more natural playmaker than Platini/Kopa
In fact, Pedernera was capped for Argentina in all 5 forwards position But in his first 1/3 of his career, he formed an amazing Left Ala with Moreno in River Plate. Being Pedernera the LW.