Review: So What Could This Mean For Die Mannschaft?

Discussion in 'Germany: National Teams' started by .Azulgrana., May 2, 2013.

  1. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Wait. Gomez isnt Lewandowski or Manduzkic, but he has different strengths which the NT can benefit from. For Christ sake, the NT need different elements not just agility n skill.

    And Kiessling SHOULD be CALLED UP, Leinad is right. Kiessling is possibly a top 3 strikers in the league, and i will be totally understand if someone here rates him higher than Mandzukic.




    Why is he the best option up front, what are u based on? U realize he is a woeful finsiher inside the box? he looks lost inside the penalty box and when he played at CF for the NT, we had way too many wasted crosses. I understand his weaknesses tho, coz he was trained/ has never been trained to play inside the box.

    Why isnt Klose a better option up top than Goetze? Age? He can still play n that matters right?

    Innovation? I thought Barcelona innovated it and we are just copy cats. I stil lthink we needa have some of our identity. Striekrless is flawed and have been read/analyzed already. Heynckes said he knew how to win against this formation, he did it; Guardiola said he could predict flase 9/strikerless would fail one day two years ago

    Strikers are trained for a reason. U can overlook that, but inside-the-box-game is probably the most difficult in football. and it comes by years of experience. Thats why i said club football shape up a striker because a top striekr can only appeared when he is trained daily for years

    The responsibilities and traits of Götze are very similar to a striker and here's the key? See very subjective there. When looking at Götze playing up top, i see a woeful finsiher who cant even finsih one-on-one,, looked lost and out of poistion at times inside the box, zero aerial threat. U call that similar to a striker??

    Again, similar to a striker........so why not a professional trained striker in Klose who has played that position everyday with his club? He is proven, experienced, allround and has all the attributes u need in a top notch striker (he still is)

    The failure of Barcelona implies that only depending on false 9 have serious flaws, and u are so afraid to list out the weaknesses of a strikerless formation. U need different elements/components to form a champion team. Just skill/agility is not enough, toughness,/aerial ablity/execution/finishing all matters.

    And playing Oezil (another terrible finsiher), Reus (inconsistent) Goetze and Mueller, may hv skills, creativity and agility....but lack inconsistency epsecially in finsihing and execution.

    With these 4 players up front, liek the problems with Barcelona, we'll rely on false 9, dpeending too much on short passes/skills/agility but overlooking other aspects in the offesnsive side of the game



    Klose is mobile, is allround, technical, creative, an aerial threat and cna finishes well. U call him "traditional"?

    Again why Götze when a professional trained striker, who plays daily for his club at CF is behind someone who has never played up top in his career n plays AM for his club?

    Klose, at this age, is still one of the top 15 strikers in the world.




    I like Gomez behind Klose. Just like the Bayern system. Gomez is a top scorer, scored 80+ goals in last two seasons. N i think u are exaggerating and neglecting some of Gomez's strengths. I m trying to be more objective and realize he is not just an aerial threat. He is a RELIABLE finsiher inside the box, RELIABLE one-on-one finsher. None of Oezil, Goetze or Reus is


    Wait, Klose n Kiessling are static targetmen u think? These striekrs are very technical and skilled. Like Ibra, Van Persie, Mandzukic n so on. U look at theior size and think "wow he can move!". Our strikers are better than u think. U are underrating them

    Even Gomez, he isnt the mobile, agile type u like but he give us other aspects/elements in the offensive side of the game. He is a reliable finsher(probably one of the most reliable finsihers in the world), aerial threat, good positioning inside the box, physical presence. And HE HELPS defensively, and he is mobile justn ot as mobiel as some others.

    Again, just skill/agility alone wont win u champion, not anymore at least. Striekrless/over dependance on false 9 n negelcting over aspects are read n analzed. As Guardiola said, he knew it would be read one day and weakneess will be exposed. He knew it two years ago.

    So we are certainly not the pioneer but rather like the copy cats at the end of this trend.






    Again, u are simply taking risk. and looks like the trend isnt lookign good either
    The hit of Barcelona n Spain False 9/stirkerless has come to an end. Barcelona are looking at targetmen to play up top and Messi back on the flank is an implication; Heyneckes said he has read/analyzedthe strikerless formation well and know exactly what the weaknesses are(and apaprently he was right!) is another implication; what Pep said was another implication

    U did say we shouldnt rely too much on False 9, but with Reus/Goetze/Oezil....all poor-terrible finishers, unreliable/inconsistent. We actually hv worse personnel than Barca (Villa, Messi, Fabregas, Iniesta are better finsihers). What make u think strikerless under us will work better than Barca? And what makeu think we wont rely too mcuh on false 9?

    Football is so much more than skill, pace n agility. u need different elements/aspects of the game to win. No aerial threat, and u are expecting Khedira(not even sure if he'll start) n hummels to compromise will only leave out holes at the back. Not to mention thosetwo are possibly the best counter defenders in the team along with Schweini n Lahm; No finsiher? U are etaking the risk on Goetze.....come on now
     
  2. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    You are literally repeating everything I said.


    But this is inaccurate really. Sure he's not a lethal finisher like Gomez but he isn't bad. From the chances he's been given in the role he's done well. It's premature to say he can't play the role when he did play it it was largely successful. I always said it's an option worth exploring. Also the idea again is to distribute the goal output so he won't be the only one at the end of chances.

    His age is a problem. His fitness and lack of pace are concerning. A bigger gamble than Götze as "striker". Serie A and Lazio suit him but I wouldn't want to revert to the same singular 4-2-3-1counter attacking team that we were in 2010 because that would be regressive. Moreover if Löw implements a pressing style, I think that would put Klose even more out of his element. I also think it's important to start building for the future rather than have a short term goal only for the World Cup.

    No and that's the problem with critics of the false nine system. It's not just copying, it's following the natural evolution of football, Barca or not. It just so happens they came along and adopted it. It started in the 70's. Germany are simply next in line to alter and possibly make it even better. We see how Bayern took what was good about Barcelona and added what Germany is good at (and I'm not talking about striker here just in case)

    Look, if it was up to me I'd prefer Reus in that position but if we are talking about Schürrle and Podolski on the left, I'd rather have Reus there to start and it's silly to leave such a flexible and great player like Götze on the bench so it's best to integrate him now. Not for the sake of but these puzzle pieces just kind of came together at the right time.

    I think you need to redefine how modern football is played relative to the striker.

    I don't understand this question.

    Haven't we been through this? The failure of Barcelona is not the failure of the false nine. How come Spain haven't failed yet? I can't be bothered to go into detail but it's a combination of things; lack of defensive restructuring, some poor transfers, over-reliance on Messi, lack of tactical versatility.

    Reus is not inconsistent. That's just a lie. Özil's goal scoring record for NT is superb. Müller will always score and if we just continue to play these guys the synergy will get better and better. And we might have goals from midfield to boot. Why not? These are young players and will definitely get better.


    No but old and physically weak. That's a dealbreaker. Unfortunately.

    He also plays for a team that caters to him, has the necessary structure around him to work and plays for an infinitely slower team and league.


    No I don't think they are. I said many times I wish Löw should give Kiessling a chance but alas little to no European experience. A shame but a non-point now. He's also almost 30 and doesn't play in an elite team.


    You're misquoting him. He said a team can become stagnant no matter what approach. if a team doesn't reinvent itself and stays flexible, it can stagnate and the manager will find it hard to motivate them. That's not what we're planning to do at all so that's a false equivalency. Playing Götze upfront by NO MEANS replicates the conditions of Barcelona. I think you should just get that out of your head because it's the primary proponent for this abstract fear you have.

    Wrong. Bayern and Dortmund are proof of this and you should know better than that.
     
  3. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    u are selctively answerign my questions

    U are simply taking risk. and looks like the trend isnt lookign good either
    The heat of Barcelona n Spain False 9/stirkerless has come to an end. Barcelona are looking at targetmen to play up top and Messi back on the flank is an implication; Heyneckes said he has read/analyzedthe strikerless formation well and know exactly what the weaknesses are(and apaprently he was right!) is another implication; what Pep said was another implication

    U did say we shouldnt rely too much on False 9, but with Reus/Goetze/Oezil....all poor-terrible finishers, unreliable/inconsistent. We actually hv worse personnel than Barca (Villa, Messi, Fabregas, Iniesta are better finsihers). What make u think strikerless under us will work better than Barca? And what makeu think we wont rely too mcuh on false 9?

    Football is so much more than skill, pace n agility. u need different elements/aspects of the game to win. No aerial threat, and u are expecting Khedira(not even sure if he'll start) n Hummels to compromise will only leave out holes at the back. Not to mention thosetwo are possibly the best counter defenders in the team along with Schweini n Lahm; When we have no finsiher? U are taking the risk on Goetze.....come on now


    largely successful? Largely successful based on what? He did ok (he wasnt even that great) against Kazakhstan?BTw, i wasnt impressed with our performance in our two games against Kazahkstan unlike u. I thought we have the possession but that makes us look better than we really are

    Many times we see wasted crosses n lack chances created into the box.

    I m not gonna take risk on Goetze playing up top. Remember, LOEW SAID HE DOESNT LIKE THE TERM "FALSE", AND HE WILL ALWAYS PLAY A "9" UP TOP. What confuses u is that he likes a technical, mobile/agile forward. Doesnt mean finishing, aerial ability, tougness, inside-the-box game, positioning, scoring insitnct will be sacrificed.

    His age can be a problem, but he is still a top notch striker, and he can manage to play 70 minutes a game.

    Last time we saw Klose start, he still play a full 90 minutes and managed to score 2 goals. In the games he playe during 12/13 season, he played 4 games and socred 3 goals n had 2 assists. Good stats and there wasnt a game he played less than 70minutes.

    I wont worry before the 2016 WC.

    Evolution? It cant be if all top teams are playing with strikers....mobile or not, they are. And i dont see how this ends. They are spending billions of dollars every year(or two) on strikers. U overlook the function of strikers, but there is a reason why they worth so much, and possibly the most expensive position in the game

    Goetze is mobile, technical and agile....but lacks too many qualities u need in a box-player. And he is nowhere near "good" "closest thing to a striker". He is more like a last resort

    U are comparing too much to Barcelona and Spain NT. Top teams like France, England, Brazil, Argentina, Real Madrid, man city, Man Utd, Chelsea, PSG, AC Milan all play with strikers. Mobile or not. I hardly see strikerless is the trend. Even Barcelona are interested in a few strikers and plan to play Messi on the flank. Where is the trend?

    Mobile, Agile strikers maybe, but still if u look at RVP, alotelli, Benzema, Ibra and co. they are not just technical n mobile. they are also reliable, clinical, allround n has a inside-the-box game(positioning, aerial ability, physical prsence, one-touch finish etc)....I dont see Goetze, Reus and Oezil are the same at all. They hv the mobile, agile, skillful part but not on the other qualities.


    Thats on paper, all hypothesis. I dont care who u left out, football its about the right combination of different aspects of the game.

    Say if we have 5 top strikers, does it mean we have to play all 5 of them in the starting lineup? Thats not how it works. I understand the increasing need of agility n mobilityi n the game, but there should be a balance of other aspects. Just skill/mobility alone do not work

    U said Barcelona relys too much on false 9/Messi, what makes u think we can be better? Barcelona have Messi, Iniesta, Villa who are all much better finishers than Goetze, Reus, Oezil and co. what makes u think it works for us?

    While having 4 attacking points, we can have none if all four of them arent reliable, consistent finsihers. And all four of them are too similar in terms of strengths. I think it works better if the attacking four have different stregths, so that they can compensate the others weaknesses.




    first of all, Spain is not as dominated as they were a year ago. Look at their WC qialifiers result and u'll realize. Second, they hv quality strikers in Negredo, Soldado, Llorente or even Torres. So they have more combination than u think

    False 9 is part of the reasons. there is main weaknesses n flaws in a false 9 system which u dont like to mention or hear. rely too much on through pass in the middle, no threat from crosses n lack toughness. But again Barcelona already hv better personnel and attacker than ours so they are possibly the best case scenario now. They are searching for striekrs and planning to play Messi back on the flank.






    Reus consistent? Have u seen his game enough to make such conclusion? Reus is streaky, when he's in good form, he can do everything but quite often he has bad form. And he has a powerful long-shots which make him look better statistically. He can miss one-on-one and easy chances.

    Oezil a good finisher? u kidding me? U saw that Dortmund-Real Madrid game? He cant even finish some chances which my grandma could easily score. and Oezil is inconsistent and not reliable.

    And Mueller n Oezil have a good scoring statistic at NT level is many because of Klose. He can score is so many different ways and can create, such presence can always drag defenders away and leave space for teammates. Its about team chemistry. Please do some reaerch on how many assists Klose made for Oezil n Mueller. Klose can score by volleys, headers, one-touch finishes and always a threat in goals n he can create n make smart runs, such qualities are rare combination in a player




    He is old, but we can still benefit in many different ways.

    Playing in Serie A means bad fit to the system? Dont think so, if Balotelli/El Shaarawy(not strikers, more like Reus type)/Machisio are German i would love to have them in my team.

    Klose is proven he is a perfect fit to the system. he is mobile, creative, expereinced and skillful, AS WELL AS being clinical finisher, aerial threat and great inside-the-box game




    He is 29, so what? 29/30 is not too old. As long as he is performing well for Leverkusen, i will have no problem

    Not Elite team, yes. But Suarez, Cavani, Llorente, Negredo n co. arent playing for elite teams as well? I'd rather have Kiessling up top, then we play someone who has never played/trained at CF at club level and suddenly move them at CF for NT



    He also said strikerless have main weaknesses (which u never realize). Heyneckes also said that he knows exactly what the problem is with a striekrless; even barcelona are searching for strikers now and planning to play Messi on the flank, so seems liek the trend has changed

    U always mention Barcelona n Spain, but they certianly have different personnel. Spain with all these top, underrated strikers as options and Barcelona can buy in good targetmen/CFs if strikerless fails. Other top NTs/clubs are playing with strikers, i dont see how this can become the main strem.

    Top coaches/manager/scouts shouldve read the strikerless tactics already.


    Wrong? U really think Bayern will play strikerless when Mandzukic n Gomez are there and they're linked with Suarez?

    Dzeko will be a Dortmunder soon, u'll see
     
    bayern15 repped this.
  4. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    If you can be more elaborate instead of making a blanket statement like this, I'll be sure to answer every question you have.

    In this case I said I agree about Kiessling and Gomez so no debate there, as much as you like to believe there is one.


    Can you just admit you are scared of change? Of course it's a risk and this wouldn't be the first time a team takes one in trying to alter its identity for the better.


    Because we have the Bayern/Dortmund playing style to combine it with. That's what Barcelona lack.


    But that's what I mean. You can only go by what we have seen so it's relative. Let me put it to you this way, we played more fluid and it wasn't an utter disaster AT ALL. So where is the negative other than in an abstract hypothesis?

    Well, don't play crosses if nobody is in the middle then. That's the problem. When Gomez is on, then play crosses. Simpel as that.

    I don't like the term either but for the sake sake of discussion it is what it is. Götze will not play exactly like Messi but similar.


    But comparing the German NT to clubs is not valid because we can't pick different nationalities and just integrate them. Also, not every team has the luxury and skilled players we do. Goes both ways. It's a matter of how to get the best out of them.

    The trend towards more mobile strikers started a decade ago. Now we have seen evidence of teams playing without one. Not just Barca but teams in Ukraine, Italy, Germany for a reason. Football is not about specialists anymore, you can see that in defenders and midfielders. It's about players who are multi capable. With that comes a change in shape and players interchanging, playing more to the system and team. With that the specialized striker becomes a little less important. Not outdated but less important. Of course if you have strikers who can move out wide and provide what other attackers do, that's perfect. But we don't have that in Klose, or Gomez or any youngster right now.

    Let me put it to you this way. If Lewandowski was German, I would be the first to put him into the starting lineup.

    No No. You are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say Barca rely too much on False 9. Messi on the other hand is a different argument. The two aren't exclusive. Stop thinking that. Barca's problem has been that they have the best player in the world (ever maybe) and they simply catered their system to get the best out of him. Its problem is that it made the team dependent. They can just as easily play Cesc or who knows, Cavani or whoever in the center of a 4-3-3 but then you make Messi less effective. You see where the problem is? We don't have that issue because nobody is particularly superior to the other. I see our talent on the same wavelength.

    What are you talking about? He is very consistent. Nobody will agree with this as a standout criticism.

    I didn't say he is a good finisher. Jesus, you just make up your own argument. I said his record is great and that's because he isn't limited for Germany as he is for Spain. He will miss some but more likely his goal tally will be higher and good enough to share with those around.

    That's simply not true.



    As a starter? Nope.

    I don't think Klose would play as many matches in England, Spain or Germany. The pace is too much for him and there's far more pressure to be physically fit.


    That's true but Cavani and Suarez when they played for Uruguay and in the CL they were very impressive. They are also younger than Kiessling and will have much more European experience. Kiessling is getting all this too late.


    You keep saying this but you don't really make strong enough points to support it. You also think that in trying this ideology we are similar to Spain when you are clearly overlooking what German culture brings into it. It will be very different.


    I'm not even talking about strikerless. I'm talking about the other aspects that will be a part of the formation. Retention. Flexibility to alter modes during match. And physicality. Ability to switch between retention and direct width like Bayern and Dortmund's high pressing and total football-esque interchanging which are two new approaches to football that have shown up Spain this season in Europe and can very much be a part of the Germany team. That's what Spain and Barca lack..
     
  5. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    U still havent answered this: Football is so much more than skill, pace n agility. u need different elements/aspects of the game to win. No aerial threat, and u are expecting Khedira(not even sure if he'll start) n Hummels to compromise will only leave out holes at the back. Not to mention thosetwo are possibly the best counter defenders in the team along with Schweini n Lahm; When we have no finsiher? U are taking the risk on Goetze.....come on now


    U have really answered my question on this either, instead u talked about something else and distracted:
    U are simply taking risk. and looks like the trend isnt lookign good either
    The heat of Barcelona n Spain False 9/stirkerless has come to an end. Barcelona are looking at targetmen to play up top and Messi back on the flank is an implication; Heyneckes said he has read/analyzedthe strikerless formation well and know exactly what the weaknesses are(and apaprently he was right!) is another implication; what Pep said was another implication
    Yes, u skipped through it for the 2nd time. Might have taken u some time to think about it,

    And u still havent listed out the cons/weaknesses of a strikerless which i've been askign for 4-5 times already. There is a long list, but i wanna hear from u and see how u advocate

    Now, here we go:

    Kiessling and Goemz are the same type? Have u ever watched them play in the first place? Kiessling, i dunno if there will be any drama happens again and Loew will call him up...but he is exctly the type u've been crying for. Not sure if u've seen enough of his games so i make a brief evalution here:

    Kiessling is 6'3"/6'4" doesnt mean he is a towering, static type. He is mobile, technically gifted, and he helps out in defense A LOT. He is an aerial threat AS WELL AS a hard worker, a leader and good/reliable finisher inside tjhe box who we currently DO NOT HAVE among all of our AMs. Kiessling is well rounded and no a specialist in any particular area of the game. Being 6'4" doesnt mean he is JUST an aerial threat.

    While Mario Gomez is not exactly the type u love in our system ,but he still offers DIFFERENT Dimension to our games. We lack aerial threat/reliable finsihers inside the box. He offers that simple, thats why we need sim in the squad. Gomez's finishing, physical presence, positioning inside the box (for crosses, through passes) is top notch. and in case u have seen enough of his games, i'll ensure u that he isn't slow/static. He has decent pace and isnt as clumsy as u think. He isnt mobile and goes to the flank very often, but again, i think a good team need various elements/components so that we wont be too one-dimensional and someone "different" like Gomez can avoid us from being predictable. (i said predictable because with Mueller/Reus/Goetze/Oezill, we'll rely too much on through passes in the middle, and none of them are good finishrs like Barca have, so focal point instead of being four......may well be none). And u cant simply overlook taditional/specialist striker either, thats why Llorente/Giroud/Negredo/Huntelaar have attracted attention from big clubs. gomez is just as fast, if not faster than these strikers mentioned. U need different aspects in the game, nothing is outdated, its just the matter of how to utilise these pieces.



    I m not scared of change. But its taking unneccsary risk, and we still see majority of top teams and clubs play with strikers in their roster. Not false 9. Even Barcelona are interested in Cavani, Suarez and some other strikers so that they can play Messi back on the flank. Strikers are still preferred and u can see top teams are gonna invest billions of dollar back on strikers again. Its not looking good for the strikerless advocates.

    Of coz u can say Suarez and Cavani those are well rounded strikers which help the teams to maintain their fluidity. But whats wrong with Klose n Kiessling in the team? they are trained, proven, mobile, can contribute on both the offensive n defensive side of the game, professionally trained finishers, good inside-the-box game, provide aerial threat...these all make me wonder why we needa put goetze there when he has never played/trained at the CF spot and lacking some important attricutes at that specific position which is arguably the most difficult to plauy in the game

    U like Goetze up top because u think Goetze is Messi-esqe. Fact is no, Goetze is great technically, fast, mobile,creative...thats all the qualities u want in a midfielder but for a striekr he lacks consistency, killer instinct(which is crucial), positioning, aerial ability, finishing, (shooting technique in a sense)....thats why i said striker is the most difficult position to play. U needa hv qualities from both a traditional striker have and in a midfielder

    And for your information, Basically all teams are playign with striekrs in BL, and what make me think this is simply taking risk is because all our younger players are trained to play with a striekr up top, instead of playing strikerless throughout their career. Barcelona could do it, becoz they have that team chemistry to compensate. But when all our younger players are grown up playign with a striker up top, i dont understand the logic behind a false 9 system. even Reus, who did play as a supporting striker last season for Gladbach, needed a targetman playing next to him


    Bayern/Dortmund, i'm sorry, are better scenarios than German NT. but Both teams hv allrounded CFs up top, and they've never really played Mueller/Goetze up top unless its a garbage time/ultimate defensive approach in last 10mintes or so. Germany hv two in Klose and Kiessling, thats the only way to play at a similar approach to Bayern/Dortmund.

    Fluidity is important, but so is execution. clincial finishing, the art of playing inside-the-box, aerial threat all matters. thats why we need a well rounded striker. We have that in Klose n Kiessling, is that make us more similar to the Dortmund n Bayern system?



    More fluid n more possession is just a process, not a result.

    I remember many of us were incontent (u can fidn the game thread especially in the 2nd game), we had all the possession but we found it difficult to score. 4 goals against Kazakhstan is not great. Of coz u can say the players arent interested as well and its a new system (4th times?). But reality is in a major tournament, u dont hv time to implement a new system either.I dont know how many times do we need to practice this striekrless, but i m glad to hear Loew has publicly announced that he will always be playign with a striekr in his formation and doesnt liek the term "flase". goetze as a CF? No, as the reasons i explained

    In conclusion in two disappointing display against Kazakhstan when our team had all the possession n fluid but found it difficult to score n played a rather boring game should some implications. We can hv all the possesssion n fludity from back n square passes, or basically whateverwe like against Kazakhstan. But how to execute is still the biggest problem in this strikerless formation, where Loew is still trying to figure out.



    Football is not as easy liek u think on paper. Or FIFA 2013/FM. U play Gomez off the bench? U realize he is neve really a joker type(Gomez usually plays well as starter, many of us know)? Does he have the chemistry with the remaining players on the pitch against different matchups? many question marks out there




    Not similar. U like Goetze up top because u think Goetze is Messi-esqe. Fact is no, Goetze is great technically, fast, mobile,creative...thats all the qualities u want in a midfielder but for a striekr he lacks consistency, killer instinct(which is crucial), positioning, aerial ability, finishing, (shooting technique in a sense)....thats why i said striker is the most difficult position to play. U needa hv qualities from both a traditional striker have and in a midfielder

    goetze have the mobile, technical, creative side of Messi but he has none of the qualities u want from a striker. I'll be more aware of what loew said he wont play a false 9 but a striekr up top. If thats Goetze, i m not sold. when klose is back, hopefully things change




    Comparing Club to NT ? u are the one who WAS comparing German NT to Barcelona , espceically before the flaws of Barcelona was exposed.

    When we have two proofessioanlly trained striekrs in Klose n Kiessling i dotn get this. U dont seem to realize striker nowadays needa have both qualities from a midfielder n a striker. togh tough task and its not someone like Goetze who has never trained or played at that CF spot can handle. When we hv Klose n Kiessling, why do we needa play Goetze up top?

    BTW, Overlooking kiessling is a big criticism loew have from fans n media so far.

    Having skill n creativity is one element. But we need different elements in a team to win. for example If our attackers only hv creativity/skills/pace, no finishing, no aerial threat, no tougness, no scoring instinct (whhich is HUGE, and only comes by experience at that CF spot) n overloking the art of playing inside-thebox, having all the possession means nothing without the right execution.



    No. Klose doesnt belong to that list, Kiessling neither n not even young allround forward in Volland (same type as Son, may well be the next NT callup after U012 U21 Euro, tricky one coz now he's playing at AM for Hoffenheim but he was the CF for 1860 last season n also for the U21. like Son, fans usually put Volland in that offensive allrounder category). We have plenty of options in mobile technical strikers. So as i've said many times, i dont see the point of a striekrless formation

    Gomez is the only towering targetman type. Buit as i've mentioned before, he still have his worth


    We dont have an exact duplicate. But Klose, Kiessling arent much worse


    Watching Barcelona play clearly give me one impression: fluidity is good, but over dependance on it may cause set back especially when execution is not good enough. They rely on Messi, but during the 2nd leg when Messi was out, instead of having 3 focal points up top with Villa and co. , they had no focal point. And Villa, Iniesta and others are already much better finishers than our AMs/wingers. Over dependacne on fluidity = neglecting other important aspects of the game. Size, toughness, execution, aerial game, inside-the-box game....everythign matters at that level

    Messi is apparently the best player, but without him? the team with Villa, Cesc, Fabregas, Sanchez (who are all much better exeuters than ours) n without the dependence on Messi didnt make the team beter eitehr, Relying on Messi is one thing, but as Heneckes has stated, strikerless formation has been read n analyzed. focal point can be 4 but well...if u dont have the right components and rs are the same type without the requirements to play up top, focal point can be zero its all about the execution n team chemistry n combination, in order to achieve that synergy


    Reus? Yes, consistent in a winger perspective. LOL, u are trying to mislead her. What i was saying is he is streaky n wasted chances if u have actually watch him play

    As a striekr , as i've said, neesa have qualities of both a striekr and a midfielder nowadays. Goetze/Reus is certainlly not having the qualities in a striker. finsihing, inside the box game is inconsitent, no aerial threat n unreliable. u can never feel reliable with Goetze inside. never an option up top (remember Loewhe will always play up not false), Reus is by far the best option on hte left flank at the moment. And if Loew wants Reus up top he wouldve done it already



    I didn't say he is a good finisher. Jesus, you just make up your own argument. I said his record is great and that's because he isn't limited for Germany as he is for Spain. He will miss some but more likely his goal tally will be higher and good enough to share with those around.









    Kiessling /Gomez up top? Klose as joker? please dont tell me Gomez cant play for the NT. He started for bm and played well at times


    U think ? pure assumption




    Kiessling is impressive in the the best league in the world. tie- number 1 striker. ANd he does it consistently over the years, that speaks

    the thing about playing for elite team is not serious. there are only 8 elite teams in the world. in history even with our winning WC/EC teams, we have striekrs from smaller teams like Stuttgart/Kaiserslautern/Werder Bremen. not to mention Leverksuen is already very close to Dortmund in terms of ability

    Age, which clubs a player plays for is mot the major concern. Ability, talent n fit is




    I find it funny when now u are sayign we shouldnt follow Spain n Barca when before u clearly used them as examples of why we needa follow. And at that time, i told u already Barca system wont work forever. Now u are using BM/Dortmund as examples, then we needa play with Klose/Kiessling , simple.
    Again, i said interchanging n fluidity is good, cant over-rely on that tho. For a winning team u still need different elements/aspects in the game.Fluidity is important, but so is execution. clincial finishing, the art of playing inside-the-box, aerial threat all matters. thats why we need a well rounded striker. We have that in Klose n Kiessling, is that make us more similar to the Dortmund n Bayern system?
     
  6. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    First of all I didn't answer because that's not a question. Secondly I spent post after post talking about the physicality and dynamism that the Bayern/Dortmund approaches will bring.

    I also said we have Gomez for aerial threat...




    I have no idea what you're saying here. Sorry but not content but grammar. I'm totally lost what you're trying to communicate here.


    NO I DID NOT SAY THAT. I NEVER SAID THAT.

    KIESSLING IS NOT AN OPTION BECAUSE HE WILL NOT GET CALLED UP EVER.

    Yea Gomez can be a nice plan B but we would be better without him as our primary gameplan. Nevertheless a tournament can alternate between two options. Why has Heynckes opted to keep him on the bench? There is also a direct correlation to why Bayern has become better and Gomez's decreased playing time or importance in Bayern's primary gameplan.



    Well no, I ACTUALLY SAID Götze is not similar to him but is closest to the type that can play the role. Like I said I'd prefer Reus but if we can bring both in, I'm ok with Götze upfront.

    And you keep insisting on weaknesses that aren't really there and are simply hypothetical. Whatever poor finishing you have seen (He's been more than good in the role so far) is part of age. Simple as. You're being paranoid and drawing extreme conclusions.

    We also have team chemistry and highly skilled youngsters who are familiar with each other. I don't think that's a problem at all.

    And Reus played false nine quite a lot last season for Gladbach. Look at matches again and pay attention to who is the furthest up the pitch. There is clear documentation for this.



    But Bayern and Dortmund are more than just strikers. You put so much emphasis on strikers are missing pieces it's all hypothetical. Point is we don't have a capable enough striker and you reek of desperation when you want an aging Klose and a relatively unsuitable Gomez in our primary gameplan.

    Like I said, pay attention to Bayern and Dortmund outside their strikers. Jeez.




    Wrong.

    A lot of posters were actually content so this isn't really true. The few who were not were totally irrational and used explanations like you. Based on hypotheticals not what we see in front of us.

    Do you realize how early it is to try this formation? How do you expect it to be perfect right away??? It was the first time in a competitive match. And these players are all really young. Get off it already. You don't know how football works it seems or you are totally lackig perspective here and are looking for every possible excuse to damn this change.



    That's Gomez's problem. If he can't do what he is asked of, then he isn't good enough.


    You used club teams to justify that we should play with strikers and it's a false equivalency because we don't have a Cavani or Suarez or Lewy. That's where the comparison to other clubs ends. You simply have to accept that.

    Klose is almost retired and Kiessling won't get called up. You are annoyingly repetitive and stubborn. Do you have a learning disorder or are you like 14 years old?

    You always seem to dodge the question when I ask your age. Maybe english is your second language and I can't understand that. It's my third but there is always something lost in this debate and you seem to just repeat and never develop or concede talking points.



    What is the point here even? Heynckes NEVER made this point about a strikerless system. He mentioned Barcelona's reliance on Messi, not the system itself. He provided context. You didn't. It's a manegerial flaw, simple as that. You can easily create a 4-3-3 where you can swap out a mobile striker for an attacking forward who can drop but play furthest up the pitch. Barcelona didn't because that would be removing their biggest threat.


    Yea, sorry we aren't Bayern because we have players from other teams. Also, Gomez has not started in Bayern's most successful season and the season they finally are looking to have turned the corner from being the almost team to THE team. The correlation is there.


    Wrong again. I said they are the model for tactical innovation. This means you can see what works and develop it in the context of your own philosophy. I don't think in extremes like you do.

    Bayern and Dortmund already looked at Barcelona and took what they needed. The NT is part Dortmund/part Bayern/Real Madrid without their best and functional strikers.

    And like I said we don't have to. You think that we will. I don't and there's no evidence for you to think there is.

    THE END.
     
  7. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    He is more than just an aerial threat. As i've said he brings different dimension to our games since he is the best finsiher inside the box (probably one of the best nowadays), is a physical presence which ALSO CREATES SPACE for teammates since he is under such attention

    And i've said this many tiems, he is not slow. Not mobile isnt equal to slow










    Really? Loew publically announced that Kiessling is still in his plan a month ago. He is clearly one of the top strikers in the BL, maybe top 3 striker. If Klose/Gomez injured, Loew will still bring 2 strikers to Brazil as his alternative plan, Kiessling is still a top candidate out there

    As i've said Gomez may not be just a plan B.

    opted to keep him on bench? Let me clarify coz u are trying to mislead here. Gomez was injured early in the season. since he's back, after winter break, in 15 league games he started in games 8 and benched once due to injury, scored 9 goals . Thats facts and stats.

    He isnt really a benchwarmer who isnt part of Heyneckes' plan. different opponenets/matchup, i think Gomez can be more effective than Madzukic.

    Towering strikers stilkl have their worth in the game. Llorente, Negredo n Giroud are some other examples. Its all about matchup n giving us more options offensively.





    found ur quotes up there: Götze will not play exactly like Messi but similar.

    U said similar, n now u are saying they arent?

    Gotze just like any of our wingers/attacking midfielders, is skillful, creative n agile. Thats great but is that enough to make him a striker up top? No.

    Strikers nowadays are trained under certain programs. And they have their worth for a reason. Gotze has the mobility, agility, skill n creativity, but he doesnt have the clinical finishing, aerial ability, scoring instinct and the ability to play inside the box.

    Strikers are difficult, just having finishing/aeiral ability/scoring instinct is not enough; but only with mobility/skill/agility is a major setback as well since execution is compromised.

    We have some professionally trained strikers in Klose n Keissling who have well rounded game. I dont see the poitn of sacrificing our finishing/aerial ability/scoring instinct by playing Gotze up top


    So striekrless has no weakness...u think? hmm.....

    I see many when u cant find a balance between fluditiy/possession and execution


    Chemistry? U noticed Barcelona(main source of Spanish NT) have a very different system to ours. Their players have been playign together since the age of 7/8.

    and if u prefer a Bayern Munich/dortmund approach, a striker is needed. Bear in mind, Lewy/Mandukic/gomez are always being played and thats the close the German NT can be compared to BM/Dortmund. Have u ever seen Gotze played CF for Dortmund? no. And there are many reasons behind it.


    I said he was used as a supportign striker at times but also as a false 9. BUT even as a false 9, he was playing beside a CF who can drop back n provide what u expect from a CF: finishing n aerial threat. Klose and handle Hanke's role well enough



    Klose is retiring? Last time i saw was that Klose has publicly announced that he will be playing WC 2014.

    And last 4 games he played for the NT : 3 goals and 2 assists. And every game he played more than 75min a game. Is it true that he cant handle starting minutes for a striker? No. He can still do exceptionally well at international level. Team will also benefit from his expereince, leadership n stuff.

    Even in all recent games Klose has been performing at a high level. In his last 10 International games, he has an average kicker rating of 3.1. Take take as reference as well


    I cant, because if we wanna follow their system, we need a striker up top. Thats what makes it complete. As i've said balance between possession/fluidity n EXECUTION is crucial






    .
    So u think only possession/fluidity, n no execution/finishing is right?


    Really? go back to the thread for the second game a check again

    Not content with the performance doesnt mean they are irrational.. Lol .

    But then u used excuses like players arent motivated enough. But i see many wasted chances due to poor execution n positioning inside the box even.

    Cant blame Gotze, Oezil n co. since they are not rained to play inside the box, they may feel incredible uncomfortable playing inside the box, finding space, makeing off-the-ball movement inside,. Cant expect killer instinct, clincial finishing n aeiral threat inside

    Many people complain it was a "boring" game. its because we hv the possession (65% or more) but couldnt score. I've never said we will have problem making chances, but many will be wasted due to many reasons. Again, execution uis compromised in a strikerless formation


    I dun know how many chances we have to try this anyway. A NT normally play 10-15 games a year. And we arent playign against Kazakhstan.

    Ipredicted strikerless wont work one day, when u said We better copied Barca. They are bringing in big name striekrs n play Messi back on the flank for a reason. when Barca fails and looking for alternatives, why are we still insist having Gotze/Oezil and co. up front? Please bear in mind other than Messi, Villa/Fabregas/Iniesta/Sanchez are much better finishers than what we have.






    So start Gomez, i have no problem with it because he brings other dimensions to our game. KOr simply let Klose start. statistics shows that he has NO PROBLEM playign 75+min a game even in recent games at NT level




    Klose who is mobile, experienced, a top aerial threat, good finisher, great creator....is still a top striker worldwide. Make a poll. He is still great.


    Kiessling too, and i wont write him off yet as the reason i mentioned



    Klose is retiring? Last time i saw was that Klose has publicly announced that he will be playing WC 2014.

    And last 4 games he played for the NT : 3 goals and 2 assists. And every game he played more than 75min a game. Is it true that he cant handle starting minutes for a striker? No. He can still do exceptionally well at international level. Team will also benefit from his expereince, leadership n stuff.

    Even in all recent games Klose has been performing at a high level. In his last 10 International games, he has an average kicker rating of 3.1. Take take as reference as well
    You always seem to dodge the question when I ask your age. Maybe english is your second language and I can't understand that. It's my third but there is always something lost in this debate and you seem to just repeat and never develop or concede talking points.






    Heyneckes, he did, and the source i read, he said he has great understanding on strikerless formation. He didnt mention the over reliance on Messi.. But he mentioned he has a good analsis n understanding of striekrless formation.

    Fact that Barca are already looking for strikers and lan to play Messi on the flank is another implication

    Mobile striker yes, but u cant sacrifice finishing, aerial ability n predator instinct



    Let me clarify coz u are trying to mislead here. Gomez was injured early in the season. since he's back, after winter break, in 15 league games he started in games 8 and benched once due to injury, scored 9 goals . Thats facts and stats.

    He isnt really a benchwarmer who isnt part of Heyneckes' plan. different opponenets/matchup, i think Gomez can be more effective than Madzukic.

    Towering strikers stilkl have their worth in the game. Llorente, Negredo n Giroud are some other examples. Its all about matchup n giving us more options offensively.


    none of Bayern /Dortmund/Real Madrid play strikerless, so we have to stick with Klose. Coz he is the onyl player with the best balance of mobility, creatity, agility n skill of a midfielder while being comfotable playing inside the box, being a prolific scorer, having the killer instinct n is a topaerial threat (even in the hisory of the game)

    I agree a towering striker may not be a best fit to our system , but a mobile striker is still needed. The best we have is Klose, if we dotn wanan sacrifice our execution part of the game, Gotze can play up top. Remember Loew wont be using false 9, and Gotze is NOT the BEST OPTION UP TOP BECOZ HE IS NOT EVEN PROVEN THERE YET.


    But with Oezil, Gotze, Reusall of them are unreliable finishers in front of goals, all of them waste easy chances and are streaky. no aerial threats at all from them, and they are not trained to play inside the box and lack required killer instinct.

    Cant blame them , they hav never played up top, and never been trained playing at CF. They have all the qualities u want in a midfielder, but nt quite as a striker
     
  8. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Obviously he provides those things which is why he would be a good alternative but he takes far too much away from the rest if he is our starter. You are not too accurate on the latter. He doesn't create space as he should nor does he provide the necessary movement. His heatmaps indicate that he primarily operates centrally and strikers should AT LEAST nowadays provide lateral movement. He doesn't and that's a huge deal to guys like Reus, Götze and co. Even Müller benefits more from strikers who can provide that.

    Politics. He isn't in Löw's plans whatsoever and will not be the starter next summer.



    Right. He is starting matches where a lot of other players are rested. That's a far cry from being number one choice. There's a reason for that.

    But to repeat I don't think he should be thrown to the curb. He could start some group matches even if tactics call for it but it's dangerous building the team for him, because that's the only way he can thrive and score a boatload of goals, when you cater to him, more or less.

    I'm perplexed by your logic. Götze is far more than just a midfielder....many modern forwards are. You sound like you're stuck in the 80's.

    Finishing is youth, aerial game doesn't matter when our collective strength doesn't feature many great heading forwards. Our game won't also suffer. Aerial attacks don't determine matches or as as important as you make it out to be. If they are, we have options to implement in in midfielders, defenders, and Gomez off the bench. So this really needs to be shot down as an argument.


    I never said that. If Löw doesn't implement a pressing game, doesn't implement a physical approach, doesn't teach the lads to take set pieces or play retention, and most importantly balance all these, then we will of course show weakness. As is the case with EVERY FORMATION. EVERY FORMATION HAS WEAKNESSES.


    But I just told you that we can learn from those teams, doesn't mean we should copy them. We don't have Lewy or Mandzukic......

    Good luck waiting for him to be fit and if we play a high pressing game by then which we would be stupid not to, it's hard to see how Klose will function in that as a starter.

    Like I said, if Löw rightly implements the Bayern/Dortmund philosophy it will be hard to see how Klose fits in.


    Wrong. You just ignored everything I said.

    Yea I don't want us to score......

    Of course I do but I think you overstate the lack of finishing. There were very few situations where it was just bad finishing compared to a systematic or mental problem. A great system can help players find their feet and confidence. And again, you panic too much without realizing these guys are all young and will only get better and score more.

    I'd rather have four different scorers who can put up 10 goals in a WC than one striker who can put up half or over half. That's dependence. That's what we will get with Gomez and that will hurt the development of our forwards.


    Sure they are if they don't use rational arguments.



    These players are extremely comfortable playing in and around the box.

    The reaction of petty children. Wanting something to be the finished product on the first try.

    Nonsense.



    You are wrong. Look at their records for Germany. All superb relative to the matches they've played. You have to stop hypothesizing so much.

    I'm actually done with this argument again because you show no respect in addressing my posts and you continuously copy and paste your responses twice, three times. It shows me how thin your argument is that you can't develop it.

    Anyway, time will tell. You seem to be stubborn about wanting to understand the natural evolution of this team and you're scared of this so you're forming paranoid conclusions.
     
    MatthausSammer repped this.
  9. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The sheer volume of text written over the past few pages by Kirsten19 and SirManchester is astonishing.
     
    Omnomnomnom, Lahmfan, checkmate and 2 others repped this.
  10. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    First of all, u ignored this:

    none of Bayern /Dortmund/Real Madrid play strikerless, so we have to stick with Klose. Coz he is the onyl player with the best balance of mobility, creatity, agility n skill of a midfielder while being comfotable playing inside the box, being a prolific scorer, having the killer instinct n is a top aerial threat (even in the hisory of the game)

    U will say he cant play becoz he is old. But stats and facts n recent performance show that he can still perform at high level even for the NT. (i said stats because he played 75+min in his last 4 NT games, had 3 goals and 2 assists) He is also a leader, an inside presence n a professionally trained striker nad has the expereince.

    U used Reus as an example of False 9, but u simply didnt know he was playing beside a 9 which gave Gladbach more flexibility up front. We are playing with JUSR midfielders, its a different story


    And u seemed to avoid to comment on the fact that Barca are giving up on False 9 n bring in a #9 so that they can put Messi back on the flank. Also Heyneckes said "FALSE 9" have obvious flaws n weaknesses and he has good understanding of that system, n he made it of coz. Lacking real execution, vairities in offense (only depends on short passes n through balls) n lack of physique are main problems. I think teams didnt quite know how to handle them before....but thigns have changed n that false 9 of Barca has come to an end


    now here we go

    I dont think u have seen enough games of Gomez's. U said he is slow n cant create space? And have u tried checking the heatmap of Lewandowski? Its exactly the same pattern based on what i've just checked

    He create space in a different way unlike those mobile CFs. He is still helpful in some way. He is a poacher, an aerial threat, a prolific scorer n a physical presence inside the penalty box. Such presence, like Van Nistelrroy, Van Basten n Batistuta in the past, usually takes two opponenent on man+zonal marking inside, and that create spaces.

    Gotze/Reus/Oezil are trained to play outside the box. again we can have all the fluiditiy, interchanging n possession but their positioning, their finishing, their instinct inside the box is not hlaf as good as Gomez's. So execution is compromised. I've always been saying e NEED A BALANCE BETWEEN POSSESSION/FLUIDITY AND EXECUTION/PREDATORY INSTINCT

    Thats ur pure assumption n very subjective opinion,. Kiessling is a good fit to our system anyway, and i m saying we have such option. Just like strikerless u suggested.

    Kiessling is a proven striker. He is trained to play inside the box, play there day-in, day-out (unlike Gotze n co.), has the phyique, has the aerial ability, has the technique n mobility. Perfect allround striker inside.

    Again i m saying we have such option.



    He isnt a number one choice. U dont seem to know how a team really work, u football knowledge is like what u have from FIFA 2013/FM2013. For Bayern, no one really is a number one choice CF. 60games season, of coz there will be rotation. The fact that Gomez have started 9 games out of 15 is part of the rotatioanl plan. Gomez also played n started in some important games n played well. U cant say with him in the starting lineup, the team cant perform well. The fact is in all the games Gomez started, he played well n the team record a winning streak.

    So the key point here is, ur staement of Gomez cant startbecause if that happens our team will suffer offensively is a myth. He is not the type of striker u like, we understand, but he has his value and has doen well when he is given chances.


    what? u mad? U know i said modern strikers need to have BOTH agility/technique/creativity of a midfielder AND instinct/physique/aerial ability/finishing ability of an old school striker. Its a combination nowadays.

    Götze only has the agility, skill, creative part....but he is clearly lacking the other qualities u want in a forward. (finishing, aeiral ability, killer instinct, positioning).

    MODERN STRIKERS ARE DIFFICULT TO PLAY, AND BY FAR THEMOST DIFFICULT POSITION ON THE PITCH. They worth billions for a reason, they need to be a striker as well as a midifielder. We have that in Klose. And they all go through a certain kinda of professional training in order to play CF. Its not like Gotze who is not even proven at club level, has never played or trained as a CF and lack many qualities u need

    aerial attack is not the main style, but if we ONLY depend on technical, agile midfielders and only attack by short/through passes, one day we can be predictable. We need more dimsions in attack.

    Gomez off the bench? He is never an off-the-bench type joker. He never is, and it all depends on when u play him off-the-bench? Enough time for him to blend in n warm up? And Gomez is not JUST an aerial threat btw, he benefits the team in other ways as mentioned



    So what are the weaknesses of a strikerless? Why cant u list them out?



    As i've said u dont need soemone called Lewy/Mandukic. We have modern striekr options in Klose, Kiessling n even young Volland(trickey since he plays AM for hoffenheim but he played last season or before as CF for 1860 n played well) as a surprised call-up. They have agility, mobility, WHILE Having the finishing, killer instinct u want in a striker



    Klose has proven he is still playing at high level in recent NT games, and in all the recent NT matches, he managed to play 75min plus.

    Dont fool urself, he has all the abilities u want in a modern strikers. I wont concern about him unless he's injured. And i dont think anyone here would doubt his worth to this team n his ability n fit.

    loew will still play Klose up top, my two cents


    Klose > Mandzukic, more mobile and technical n more experienced as well. This young team needs his presence.



    yes, because u only think of the mobilty/agility/creativity of a modern striker but ignore the fact that modern striker still need execution, killer instinct, aerial ability(if needed) n knowledge of playing ionside the box. U cant randomly play someone there up top because its the most difficult position on the pitch and has many requiements to do it. Ignoring the execution part is like foreplay without a real ********





    LOOL...4 scorers? u 4 scorers turn into NONE if all of them are just playmakers with limited finsihing abilites. when Oezil, Goetze cant really score n Miss chances so frequently? Even Reus is inconsistent. Goetze playign up top, he is lost n always playing out of position, cant win a positional battle against bigger defenders, has no clinical finishing n no aerial ability.

    Its about synergy. When u are Barca n have better finishing AMs like Iniesta, Villa, Sanchez, Fabregas....yes, maybe the scoring responisbilty is shared, n that didnt quite work for them either when Messi was out injured at times; Gotze, Oezil are far worse finishers/executers.As i've said when all four of them are creative playmakers, n similar type with same weakensses. U dont really get the synergy. Oezil n Mueller's scoring record (please check) is far better with Kloseo n the pitch. There is a chemistry between those 3 if u havent seen enough games. Many posters here know this



    LOL what an arrogant staement. People dont agree with u and do not like strikerless (which wasnt that great) mean irrational?

    In another forum, there is a poll nad 62% of the 236 posters arent impressed with the way we played in the 2 game even VS Kazakhstan.






    Watch more games, some of the chances/sitters inside the box they missed were something which my grandpa could easily score

    Watch more. Pay attention to their off-the-ball inside the box as well, and their positioning. Thats crucial. And from what i saw from Gotze, it wasnt a good idea to play him up top at all




    But it isnt proven to be a sucess anyway. So far, the comments are 50/50. lets be fair, buti wont use the games VS Kazakhstan as benchmark AT ALL.

    Play few more games with strikerless then play against a better opponenet in COMPETITIVE GAMES then we make a conclusion. But if Loew decides to play with a 9, u cant blame him because he has reasons for that






    The recrods? U realizedthose records are mainly with a striker in their system(n thats allround,mobile, aeiral threat, clinical finihser in Klose)? And look at the assists Klose gave Oezil n Mueller. Everyone here who watches enough games know there is a chemistry between the three of them. Thats how u call synergy. Klsoe's presence, experience, leadership is crucial too.


    Again, its not about scared of change, but theneed of taking unnecessary risk. An Allround striker like Klose/Kiessling/Volland up top keeps us more Bayern-eaqe than Barca-esqe.
     
  11. timh19

    timh19 Member+

    Jul 26, 2011
    It really is astonishing. There are two other incredible things with that :
    1. Kirsten repeating the same nonsense million times and completely ignoring the well-thought-out(balanced) responses. Some serious mental problems there.
    2. SirManchester seems like a pretty intelligent person so the amount of time he's wasting on a lost cause is just unbelievable. Is he doing an experiment on how many times Kirsten will repeat aerial threat, positioning inside the box and killer instinct before getting sick of it ? :D
     
  12. Kirsten19

    Kirsten19 Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Newport Beach, CA
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    I m emphasizing on execution n other dimensions in the game other than skills/agility/crativity. Yes, others like toughness, finishing ability, aerial abiltiy, scoring instinct, physique all play a role especially at that level

    Modern strikers nowadays need mobility, skills n agility, i understand. But all the other factors are crucial AS WELL. Modern Strikers are basically a mixture of a midfielder AND a striker, he needs to have qualities from both positions. thats how we define "allround" like Klose or Kiessling

    Over emphasizing(or obssession) on fluidity n possession, but ignoring the importance of execution is useless. When none of Gotze, Reus n Oezil are reliable finishers inside (lets admit it Klose is more allround than any of the AMs mentioned, better finisher n aeiral threat too), i dont see the synergy. Even Fabregas/Villa/Sanchez/Iniesta are better finishers than ours, they couldnt work well together in a striekrless formation at times for Barca.

    there are stuff SirManchester failed to explain as well. Barca are linked with big name strikers n plan to play Messi back on flank; Heneckes said the strikerless formation hv major flaws n he could cope with it (obviously we know the results). All top teams (other than Barca n Spain) are playing with strikers...........are all my doubts over strikerless being the trend and main stream

    Gotze apparently has never played up top, has never being trained there even at club level. How can Gotze be a solution at CF spot forthe NT really puzzles me? He only has the midfielder qualitiesi n him but lacking every single atribute u want in a striker
     
  13. timh19

    timh19 Member+

    Jul 26, 2011
    Iniesta scores like 5-10 goals in a season out of like 60 matches(in total 46 goals in 451 matches). He is not a finisher at all. Sanchez is a huge flop. He misses incredible chances every game. Villa is 31 and is not the same player since the long injury lay-off. He is past it. Fabregas was turning into a pretty good goalscorer at Arsenal but now at Barca his performances have been disappointing. Reus and Mueller ( and soon Goetze who is improving his finishing every season) have better finishing abilities than Iniesta, Sanchez, this old and past it Villa and the Fabregas of this and last season.
     
  14. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany


    Nonsense, I didn't ignore it at all. I wrote in depth about adapting aspects of Bayern and Dortmund's games that have nothing to do with their strikers.

    And don't you see how Klose is an even bigger gamble? He hasn't played a full season in how long? And he will play even less possibly next season. He only completed 13 league matches this season and got injured in 8 of them! That's in the league alone. In Europe he only completed ONE match and got injured in 7 of them! That's astonishingly injury prone.

    At this stage we can move forward and build the team with the possibility that he won't be available and more importantly for a post-Klose National Team. Why is that rationale so difficult to comprehend?

    Oh yea because we will have no aerial threat and "execution". Paper-thin argument with Klose. PAPER THIN.

    I didn't know? I wrote articles about this formation. Reus played with Hanke who dropped off. It could have been anyone else. In fact. it was Arango at times, when Hanke didn't play or was substituted and it was Herrmann. It had nothing to do with a 9 beside him.

    I'm astonished by your lack of reading comprehension then because that was addressed as well.

    I continue to respond to you because you seem to care a lot about this and I respect your position on this subject and you deserve a platform to discuss it. But you have to be reasonable and respectful which you are not.

    For the last time, the flaw is a lack of flexibility, not the system itself. If Barcelona had someone off the bench during matches they wouldn't have to rely on Messi in the occasional match. The system did more than good in MOST of the matches this season so that wasn't an issue but football is more complicated than that and to win and compete in all competitions you need tactical depth and flexibility. We have Gomez to call on if our primary system doesn't work but it will against most opponents, just like Barca's system does.

    Simply wrong. I don't care about execution when as a nine you can't offer the off the ball movement that is necessary and I've written long posts on his movement and pasted heatmaps into these posts. Feel free to go back and look them up or go to bundesliga.de and find them yourself. You are simply making stuff up now.

    Lewandowski is creating numerous chances running from as far back as from midfield (Please don't use Gomez's one goal this season as an indicator of frequency) and he creates even more dropping wide and doing so. When has Gomez drifted far left, dribbled past midfielders and fullbacks, cut into the middle and squared it to a teammate? That's simply not his game.

    I agree. He is still helpful but limited and when you are limited, you limit those around you. And those players you mentioned played in a totally different tactical era of football.

    Like I said you live in the past. I thought you were really young like 14 or 15 but maybe you are really old and clingy to tradition.

    Again wrong. These forwards love to play outside AND inside the box. How often have we seen Reus, Götze and Özil, and Müller invade the box and take on players? A lot. That's their natural game.

    If this becomes an argument based on lies and a lack of knowing how to watch football, then it's not much of a debate. You can state one thing but don't outright LIE without backing it up.




    Again, laughably wrong. Mandzukic is clearly preferred between the two but depth is important, and not something I denied.


    Right. And although I don't think Gomez is exactly a static striker he is simply not of the same ilk of those more mobile 9's who can play with inverted attacking forwards where the result is a fluid interchanging game because Gomez will always be a striker. On any given day a Lewy, Mandzukic or Suarez can be a WF or AM and you won't know the difference. Not the case with Gomez and that's a huge difference.

    Every system has weaknesses which comes down to its implementation and execution. If you play with a false nine whose aerial game is not as good and you keep crossing, that's the flaw of the manager. Likewise if you have an aerial targetman and you don't cross, it's the manager who is instructing wrong. At this point, a fluid quasi-4-3-3 seems to be the most compatible shape to the personnel we have and to the pressing/total football-esque culture that has emerged with this new generation.


    Those are ALL non-choices and the sooner you realize that, the better you will sleep at night.


    But they're not all just playmakers. That's your delusion.

    Those Spanish players are not all better finishers.





    No. Irrational is insisting Kiessling will be a viable option. Klose is a viable option. Götze, Reus are just playmakers and inconsistent in the box players, who actually can't even play in the box. Gomez is an option for a fluid 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 shape, etc



    With a future without potential strikers, it's not as much a risk as it is a necessity.

    And this has nothing to do with Barca again.
     
  15. Dhajj

    Dhajj Member+

    Nov 25, 2010
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    At least we will be able to combine the best of german Bayern and the best of bvb players.

    Mixed with a handful of so4, kusen and Madrid..

    I think this mental experience should do wonders in the WC, it's all up to loew to bring it home.

    If he fails tactically then its time to go.
     
  16. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    At least we wont have to hear that this generation of players has never won anything. At least one significant set of NT players will have a CL winners medal at the end of the month.
     
    Dhajj repped this.
  17. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    This is hopefully only the beginning.
     
  18. CanStriker

    CanStriker Member

    Oct 6, 2010
    It means we must nationalize Dante, Lewandowski, and Martinez pronto. :cool:
     
  19. CanStriker

    CanStriker Member

    Oct 6, 2010
    By Chelsea do you mean that shit Benitez-led team that crashed out of the CL in the group stages this year, and was humbled in the PL? If so I am not sure why you listed them alongside gianst such as Manchester United and Bayern.

    If you are referring to last year's Chelsea where Drogba led the line, you could not be more wrong. Drogba *was* the physicality on that team; he was a physical force on the field and he led his team by example.
     
  20. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    What is your point? Are you implying Benitez's Chelsea crashed out of the CL because of a lack of physical presence up front? That's an incredible stretch.

    Chelsea have players in defense and midfield who do a lot of the physical work. Ivanovic, Terry, Luiz, Cahill, Lampard, Mikel, Bertrand, and Ramires. Drogba was playing that role last season but he wasn't the only one. The point was to name examples of teams that function without a physically imposing striker.
     
  21. CanStriker

    CanStriker Member

    Oct 6, 2010
    I wanted to clarify which Chelsea we were talking about, no need to create a straw man. And if that was your point, then I am sure we could come up with a better functioning team than the current Chelsea FC. :thumbsup:
     
  22. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Certainly.
     
  23. DerChef

    DerChef Member+

    Oct 5, 2011
    United Kingdom
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Nope. Similar to, different from. Though both sound better than the American different than.
     
  24. heynckes' hanging leftnut

    Feb 27, 2013
    not sure if the "to" here is connected in meaning to "toward".

    That's why "different to" would make sense.

    saying "from" after "different" sounds like you are conveying the same meaning twice.

    like saying "you and I both".





    anyway, who cares!!
     
  25. MatthausSammer

    MatthausSammer Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 9, 2012
    Canada
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I find it extraordinarily boring to see the way this whole forum has been turned into a battlefield of Gomez/Klose/Kießling vs Strikerless/midfielder up front. Both sides just yell the same talking points over and over again until they're red in the face.
     

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